|
Post by True Black Raven on Jul 2, 2021 12:05:42 GMT -5
This is (hopefully) going to grow into the definitive Appendix N thread. Hyperbolic, maybe, but let's see where this goes and then decide.
Part One
First up what are the questions? 1. Appendix N - what is it? 2. Appendix N - what is it not? 3. Appendix N - was it an influence on OD&D? 4. Appendix N - was it an influence on Blackmoor? 5. Appendix N - where did it come from? 6. Appendix N - does it serve a purpose now? and 7. Appendix N - what purpose, if any, does it serve now? 8. Appendix N - what pre D&D books/authors were left out, that should have been included? 9. Appendix N - what are the post OD&D books that should be included?
If you have other questions, please ask them and I will update this first post with them.
Next Up Part Two
|
|
|
Post by True Black Raven on Jul 2, 2021 12:05:54 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by True Black Raven on Jul 2, 2021 12:09:23 GMT -5
D&D itself is a cultural phenomenon (or set of phenomena) that has influenced our contemporary popular culture with regards to the very legendaria that it engages! It has become, as an industry, "self-referential." As an Old Schooler, desiring the verisimilitude of a more "war games" feel, I regret this. For example, I refuse to have "Liches" in my campaign. Vampires are the Lords of the Undead (duh!). I do not want a Gygaxian creation messing up the inherited legendaria! (I know I am being too purest, but, well, I am Old School!) Like many other questions that Old Schoolers ask, I now ask this: What if we froze the legendaria that D&D engaged in January 1974, before the game itself influenced itself in a kind of weird "feed back loop"? What was that legendaria? How many sources and genres did it engage? This goes beyond "Appendix N." How did it game-i-fy that legendaria and the various interesting tit-bits derived therefrom in its rules set? How successfully did it do so? An obvious example, worthy to become its own thread, would be so-called "Vancian Magic." How many others? In terms of genres, I can think of: pulp fiction, "higher" fiction, fairy tales, folk tales, "B" movies, medieval Romances, their various receptions and rewrites -- the list goes on and on. But this is interesting to me! I would love a kind of "annotated" LBBs that described what aspect of the received legendaria G or A were game-i-fying! This is a very interesting topic indeed, tetramorph . I've given it a lot of thought, but perhaps from a more personal point of view instead - I've been thinking about my own references and influences when I first started playing RPG's as a kid, how they affected my play and my view on fantasy in general, and how they have changed and developed through the years. I'd say there's a number of factors affecting this matter, such as what time one started to play (70's, 80's etc), at what age one started playing (it's probably quite a difference between starting out as a kid aged 10 or 12 compared to the later teens), where you were living (big city or countryside, US or elsewhere etc), and which game it was. But that is perhaps a slightly different topic, possibly better suited for another thread, so I won't go deeper into it here at the moment.
|
|
|
Post by True Black Raven on Jul 2, 2021 12:09:36 GMT -5
I love the Appendix N reading list from the original DMG. I have never set with the goal of reading everything on the list but I have read a decent amount from Tolkien, Howard, and others. I think my favorite might be Howard's Conan stories with their snake cults, ancient gods, etc. How about you?
|
|
|
Post by True Black Raven on Jul 2, 2021 12:09:48 GMT -5
I don't know how many people have read Hiero's Journey(1973) ( How Complete Is Your Appendix N Reading?) and the sequel The Unforsaken Hiero(1983) by Sterling Lanier. What I am curious about is if you have read these books have you or would you use them as inspiration for a campaign. If you have not read them, does the blurb below stir any interest in using them as the inspiration for a campaign. They were written 10 years apart and they scream for a third book as nothing was resolved and all the story threads hang unfinished, to me it seems odd there is no third book since the author lived 24 years after the second book was written. If this does interest you, how would you handle the telepathy/psionics? Also on a somewhat similar note have you read The Horseclan series by Robert Adams and how would that influence your campaign.
|
|
|
Post by True Black Raven on Jul 2, 2021 12:10:03 GMT -5
Quite some time has passed since I first mentioned my ambition to make an annotated version of my so called "Appendix N" for the Xul campaign setting. Well, finally it's here...! I've decided to divide it into several posts in order to make the disposition clearer, thus easier to quote and/or comment upon. Enjoy! This Appendix N covers ART: BOOKS: COMICS: MOVIES: TV series: MUSIC: This is really sweet, Necromancer , I really like what you have done here. Thank you, Admin Pete ! It's been bugging me that it has taken me so long to write down and post this annotated version, but now it's done and it feels good. I hope it provides a more in-depth view on the sources of inspiration I've used. You will want to go read this thread.
|
|
|
Post by True Black Raven on Jul 2, 2021 12:10:22 GMT -5
tetramorph posted these links over at ODD74 and I took the liberty of posting it here too. Thanks to tetramorph for this.
|
|
|
Post by True Black Raven on Jul 2, 2021 12:10:32 GMT -5
What is essentially this thread has been started twice over at ODD74 and has generated a lot of discussion; unfortunately it has been locked twice for a variety of reasons. IMO none of those reasons should come into play on our board and I believe that we can have the discussion that Appendix N (from the DMG 1st Ed AD&D) and Jeffro Johnson's book deserves. You may want to revisit these first two posts from time to time since I am going to be adding to them from time to time. The reason for that is that I think that sometimes context is everything and a lot of things about Appendix N gets taken out of context. Some of those things have been taken out of context with the book Appendix N: The Literary History of D&D by Jeffro Johnson. There is also a lot of misinterpretation going on and I hope in this thread that we can steer clear of that and have a great discussion. In order to to facilitate the discussion we are going to avoid politics, social developments, and agendas. We are going to concentrate on what we can learn from the books of Appendix N, the pulp era magazines and books and Appendix N: The Literary History of D&D by Jeffro Johnson when we look at it in context.The context is this, Gygax's original introduction to Appendix N: More of the context is this comment that was posted by oakesspalding : So I would like for us to look at Appendix N and Jeffro's book not as a holy grail but as an influence, an inspiration and also to speculate on what other books they Gygax and Arneson may have read, if you want to include movies they may have seen that is good too. If you want to be contentious please don't, play nice and if this thread rubs you the wrong way, then please ignore it and don't read it. That is not to say that other viewpoints and dissent are not welcome, they are; however, if it upsets you a lot, then you may want to refrain from posting. Many of us loved these books bitd and love them now. And here is more context, this is what Dave Arneson thought regarding influence ( source): So above are three points of context and I urge you to keep them in mind as your read and as you post. As we pursue this thread, please keep those above noted three points of context in focus!
|
|
|
Post by True Black Raven on Jul 2, 2021 12:10:51 GMT -5
What are some of the books that would be in your own personal Appendix N, here are a few that come readily to mind for me: Books
Weird Tales, Edgar Allen Poe Spirits of the Dead, Edgar Allen Poe, Really all things written by Poe All by Robert E. Howard Elric novels, Michael. Moorcock All Books by Edgar Rice Burroughs Cthulhu novels, H. P. Lovecraft Hobbit and LotR Trilogy and his other fantasy writings, J.R.R. Tolkien Discworld Novels, Terry Pratchett Malazan Book of the Fallen series, Steven Eriksen Garett P.I. and The Black Company books, Glen Cook Drenai series, David Gemmell Guardians of the Flame series, Joel Rosenberg The High House and The False House, James Stoddard Alice in Wonderland/Alice behind the Mirrors, Lewis Carroll Also just from the top of my head ... Tolkien should be on this list, too, of course. The Neverending Story, Michael Ende And of course Tolkien all the way...I would argue that even in a non-fantasy, utterly un-ME campaign, the ref would do very well to be familiar with Tolkien's work. I really like Clark Ashton Smith, particularly the Hyperborea and Zothique stories, as well as the Earthsea books by LeGuin. Neither made it into appendix N, but they're both in the Inspirational Source Material in Moldvay's Basic. CAS is probably why I don't have Clerics in my campaign, but do have Thieves. Gene Wolf's New Sun books were a huge inspiration to me when I began running my megacity/megadungeon campaign. The factions and descriptions of life amongst the ruins are great. I just remembered these: Robert Louis Stevenson was one of the earliest author's I ever read. I have not thought about him for a while. I remeber reading Treasure Island and the Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde. After that the Red Badge of Courage by Stephen Crane and then The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexandre Dumas. Now those were some good books. Joe Abercrombie: The First Law series was excellent. All of the characters which are the heroes in this book would be villains in other books. A great Character Study for interesting and entertaining bad guys. I read the original trilogy, the story is still being written, but the first three are a complete and very epic story. R. Scott Bakker: The Prince of Nothing trilogy. Splendid world-building, jam packed with ideas for the reader to lift and apply to their own games. It is about an enormous army traveling on foot to reclaim their holy city from a powerful and dangerous enemy. It is very logical, brutal, and inspiring. I really like his magic system too, it's very simple but effective. Shedding our modern moral baggage is something that I'm really looking into right now, and this specific title really fits the bill. Richard Adam: Shardik A fast read about a primitive culture that believes that a bear is their god, and god says to kill a more advanced society. Man, this one features barbarians too? What is it about these guys that we find so fascinating? Anyway, this is a great look at shamanism is action, and has simple but very effective world building techniques that anybody can do. I have read Joe Abercrombie: The First Law series and found it to be excellent. That did make me think of another author - Elizabeth Moon and all of the Paksenarrion books. They are IMO fantastic! All right, I got two more worth mentioning: Neverwhere, Neil Gaiman (a mystic megadungeon under London and it even spawned it's very own little, author approved rpg!) Metro 2033 (series), Dmitri Alexejewitsch Gluchowski (life in the metro under Moscow after radioactive fallout, with mutants abound and very strange factions, takes the whole dungeoncrawl business very serious, very dark, maybe more Mutant Future/Gamma World?) Down Town by Polikarpus and King. I have never heard anyone else mention this book, but it enthralled me as a kid. A kind of wacky, everything-perverted megadungeon based on New York hidden under New York. Not sure how it would hold up to an adult reading, but for a kid... Von linked to his blog which is no more but here it is in the Internet Archive - Von has not been around in a long time. Appendix NThought of a new one, "Camping & Survival" by Paul Tawrell, a nice fat, and well organized book that goes a lot deeper than we need it too, but breaks down and describes all of the different terrain types in a way that puts you there. Silmarillion and LoTR by J.R.R. Tolkien Death's Master by Tanith Lee (Actually pretty much anything by Tanith Lee) Conan by Robert E Howard Conan by L Sprague D. Camp and Lin Carter Conan by J. Steven York The White Company and Sir Nigel, by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle Lord Foul's Bane by Stephen R. Donaldson (The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant) The Guardians of the Flame Trilogy by Joel Rosenberg Quag Keep by Andre Norton Witchworld series by Andre Norton (Also for Traveller) Dragonriders of Pern by Anne McCaffrey (Also for Traveller) Kothar and the Wizard Slayer by Gardner F. Fox Parzival by Wolfram Von Eschenbach Magician by Raymond E. Feist Raiders of Gor by John Norman (Actually any of the Gor series) Thieves World Anthology by Robert Lynn Aspirin and Lynn Abbey. Janissaries series by Jerry Pournelle and Larry Niven pretty much anything by Fritz Lieber pretty much anything by Michael Moorcock Just for those who don't know, the Gor books are not for children. They were kind of marketed just as sword and planet and for the most part the first five books were that way and then they went downhill from there and I stopped reading. Yeah, Gor the setting started with some good ideas, but unfortunately it veered off into sadistic porn (extensively) after the first few books.
|
|
|
Post by True Black Raven on Jul 2, 2021 12:11:01 GMT -5
The Appendix N of Rob Kuntz according to Rob can be approximated with this list. I noticed that where this was posted the link had went bad, so I looked it up on the Internet Archive and reposted it here with a working link. Hundreds of stories are linked to in the list. Pretty impressive. Here is the list, go to the link above for all of the other links to the stories. (TBR note: since this is now in the Internet Archive those links to the stories themselves may no longer work, I have not tried them.)
|
|
|
Post by True Black Raven on Jul 2, 2021 12:11:14 GMT -5
This is great stuff Darcy, well worth an Exalt. How about comic book characters? Green Lantern, especially the CORP series that is about all of the Green Lanterns from around the universe. Adam Strange is another DC favourite of mine, a very classic sci-fi trope without many titles but the ones he does have are spectacular! I definitely recommend finding the Planet Heist series. Of course, there is the excellent X-Men franchise (the books not the movies), there is a deep Science Fiction theme to the X-men that many folks dismiss as trash without actually reading. I tend to stick to Graphic Novels now for my (gulp) superhero fix, as I just don't have the budget to buy them anymore and they are addictive as all get out. Storing them is difficult as well, and the Graphic Novels look so nice on a bookshelf. Smith, E.E. - Skylark series Wylie, Phillip - Gladiator Stapleton, Olaf - Odd John Pournelle, Jerry - Falkenberg series Verne, Jules - 20000 Leagues Under The Sea Anderson, Poul - High Crusade E.C. Tubb -- Dumarest novels CJ Cherry has some awesome sci fi books. Chung quo. I liked the original series due to the epic political maneuvering. Sheesh, there is just so much sci fi. Lately I tend to be enjoying all the old Ace Doubles. Some have some amazing prose and ideas. C. J. Cherryh, real name is Carolyn Janice Cherry She has written a lot of fantasy, but my personal favorites are her Chanur Series. The Pride of Chanur (1981) Chanur's Venture (1984) The Kif Strike Back (1985) Chanur's Homecoming (1986) Chanur's Legacy (1992) Chung quo I believe refers to
|
|
|
Post by True Black Raven on Jul 2, 2021 12:11:26 GMT -5
Is Appendix N relevant anymore? Now this thread ran for four pages. Folks make a lot-to-do about Appendix N, sometimes to the point of silliness. There are specific examples of heavy influence which steered D&D into a specific direction. A famous example being Jack Vance and his impact on Gary's magic system. Today, we zoom ahead and we must face the facts that more people are familiar with D&D than they are with most of the titles given in Appendix N. The game of Dungeons & Dragons became pop culture. It, in turn, inspired the new medium of computer gaming to attempt to design D&D games with a simulated DM and could be played solo. Now you see the video game influencing the direction of Dungeons & Dragons. The game itself is different. We live in a world saturated with things to do, but here we are. Groups of people still meet up and play a game that takes place in our minds. Graphics and video game design, as highly advanced as it is, has yet to accomplish its original goal of replacing the Dungeon Master. Why are we still doing this? I think that robkuntz hit the nail on the head with his definitions of Closed and Open Systems. The human brain is capable of open systems, while the computer is not. It is the open systems which define the necessary elements of analogue gaming, and it is the mastery of these open systems by the player that makes this game what it is. But, here is the deal: The rulebooks themselves are closed systems. We do need closed systems for the game to function properly, but do we need the system of Dungeons & Dragons or whatever to accomplish it? The game itself has been evolving and changing since its creation into its own mass marketed being. At what point in our path to becoming Gamemasters is the dependence on a closed system just laziness or even worse? Actually containing the creativity within us! We have users here who never left the original version of the game, those of us who seek to strip the social and commercial state of the game back to its basic components, or even further. Some of us are here to unlock the mystery of Arenson who got upset with the commercial production of D&D itself. What is D&D about? Why did this weird game that asked so much of the referee become pop culture? What makes us always come back? Is it the desire to explore and exist in a fantasy realm? Does this speak to our need for new characters, or to take a static and unchanging book and make it even more interactive? Does a list of books written 40 years ago really matter anymore? There is an underlying deadness to D&D. Those dumb influences which have actually taken over public consciousness and morphed them from fantasy to some dull expectation. Mention a Goblin to anybody and even if they never sat down to play D&D, they will instantly think of a low-level monster. Is this acceptable? It speaks too highly of a mechanical system which has remained unchanged for far too long. Monsters reduced to a mathematical formula, that is horrible! But this is the end result of D&D's influence on popular culture. How many novels have never been written because of Dungeons & Dragons? Maybe thousands, maybe none. Talent always has a way of bubbling to the surface. I do think that it is telling when a large portion of fantasy fandom actively rejects any growth or change in the genre because it doesn't follow the laws of D&D. New ideas are belittled and rejected because D&D is some kind of yardstick now? I personally reject this notion. The fantasy genre should not have to consult D&D. It should be the other way around, but it isn't. D&D itself is a closed system that actively seeks to shore up any gaps in personal creativity. Is Appendix N to blame for this? This treating out-of-print and possibly out-of-date books as scripture? Was it our job to read these books and adhere to them, or was it to eclipse them? Considering the scarcity of many of them, how many active users who never seen the AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide or even know what Appendix N is are still held in thrall of it without their knowledge or consent? Maybe I have it wrong. Maybe the genre itself was exhausted 40 years ago, and the only thing that keeps it alive is Dungeons & Dragons? Maybe Appendix N must never change. Must never have items removed or new sources added. I would hate for this to be true. Personally, I couldn't write my own Appendix N. There are no examples of it which fully dictate any direction of where my game goes; at least none that I can see through the trees. How about you?
|
|
|
Post by True Black Raven on Jul 2, 2021 12:13:15 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by True Black Raven on Jul 2, 2021 12:13:29 GMT -5
Fairy Tales (EB) -- Appendix NSuggestive / inspirational quotes or works listed here, specifically for this subforum. Examples The Last Unicorn, by Peter Beagle I haven't read this book in twenty years. From what I remember, it probably looks a little dated now, but as I recall, it managed to be immersive in spite of all the little jokes and fourth-wall winks. That seems like an impressive achievement. I remember being completely enchanted by some passages. And My old post from this thread here: In response to this thread for the Perilous Dreams game, I wanted to bring up the story "The Buried Moon." It's an unusual folktale collected in the 19th century in a fenny region of England. You can read the Wikipedia entry here. More important, you can read the story here. I'm going to try to attach an image from Joseph Jacobs's publication of the story. It shows the Moon, a helpful being, trapped in a swamp. I think this story is exceptionally grabbing. It seems like it would make a great local legend in a game or some sort of adventure hook to get the PCs into a swamp. And More in the thread!
|
|
|
Post by True Black Raven on Jul 2, 2021 12:13:43 GMT -5
From the blog post linked in the OP.
|
|
|
Post by True Black Raven on Jul 2, 2021 12:29:31 GMT -5
This is where The Perilous Dreamer was at on his Appendix N reading back on Jan 23, 2015. TPD you should update this list. Anderson, Poul: THREE HEARTS AND THREE LIONS; THE HIGH CRUSADE; THE BROKEN SWORD I have read a lot of Poul Anderson including Three hearts and Three Lions, but have never seen the others, but would love to read them.Bellairs, John: THE FACE IN THE FROST I have never seen this one either.Brackett, Leigh I have read a lot of stuff by this author and enjoyed all of it. The Book of Skaith (1976) – omnibus edition of the three Skaith novels was very good. Her husband Edmond Hamilton was also a good author.Brown, Frederic I don't ever remember seeing his books.Burroughs, Edgar Rice: "Pellucidar" series; Mars series; Venus series I have read all of these and loved them, I have read the first series at least twice, the Mars series 7 or 8 times and the Venus series at least 3 or 4 times. Plus nearly everything else he wrote, many of those multiple times.Carter, Lin: "World's End" series I have read most of this authors books.de Camp, L. Sprague: LEST DARKNESS FALL; THE FALLIBLE FIEND; et al Yes to these also, everything I could find.de Camp & Pratt: "Harold Shea" series; THE CARNELIAN CUBE Yes to these also, everything I could find.
Derleth, August Nothing by this author, but don't recall seeing any either.Dunsany, Lord Great author and I have read several of his books, but by no means all.Farmer, P. J.: "The World of the Tiers" series; et al Yes, a lot of books by this author.Fox, Gardner: "Kothar" series; "Kyrik" series; et al Yes, a lot of books by this author.Howard, R. E.: "Conan" series Yes, a lot of books by this author, as close to everything as possible.Lanier, Sterling: HIERO'S JOURNEY Yes, a several of books by this author, including the sequel to this. There is a Mars book too, Menace Under Marswood (1983) is excellent.Leiber, Fritz: "Fafhrd & Gray Mouser" series; et al Yes, a lot of books by this author.Lovecraft, H. P. A few books and would love to read more.Merritt, A.: CREEP, SHADOW, CREEP; MOON POOL; DWELLERS IN THE MIRAGE; et al A few but not all, would love to find the rest.Moorcock, Michael: STORMBRINGER; STEALER OF SOULS; "Hawkmoon" series (esp. the first three books) Yes, a lot of books by this author.Norton, Andre Yes, a lot of books by this author, at least 50. Fun fact is that she lived in Cleveland OH back in the 80's and was listed in the phone book. I never called, I felt that was over the top. But later on I wished I had sent a note, telling her how much I enjoyed her books.Offutt, Andrew J.: editor of SWORDS AGAINST DARKNESS III Yes, a lot of books by this author.Pratt, Fletcher: BLUE STAR; et al Yes, a lot of books by this author.
Saberhagen, Fred: CHANGELING EARTH; et al Yes, a lot of books by this author.St. Clair, Margaret: THE SHADOW PEOPLE; SIGN OF THE LABRYS I have never seen any of these books.Tolkien, J. R. R.: THE HOBBIT; "Ring trilogy" Yes, a lot of books by this author.Vance, Jack: THE EYES OF THE OVERWORLD; THE DYING EARTH; et al Some of this authors books, would love to read more.Weinbaum, Stanley Yes, a lot of books by this author.Wellman, Manley Wade A couple of the young adult books a long time ago. Another hard to find author.Williamson, Jack Maybe 7 or 8 of these books, haven't seen many.Zelazny, Roger: JACK OF SHADOWS; "Amber" series; et al Some of this authors books, would love to read more.
There is where I am currently at on this list.
Another book I would recommend is The Lavender Dragon by Eden Phillpotts. I once read a story where the dragon was 500 feet long. It may have been this book or not. It has been a long time.
|
|
|
Post by True Black Raven on Jul 2, 2021 14:09:28 GMT -5
Here is the list that finarvyn the owner of odd74 posted here on this forum back on Jan 24, 2015. The Perilous Dreamer you should update your list and redo it in this format. I've read a lot of Appendix N -- some I thought was great and others I thought were pretty average. Many of my all-time favorite books come from the list. Category 1 - I’ve read some or all of it!Anderson, Poul: THREE HEARTS AND THREE LIONS; THE BROKEN SWORD Bellairs, John: THE FACE IN THE FROST Burroughs, Edgar Rice: "Pellucidar" series; Mars series; Venus series de Camp & Pratt: "Harold Shea" series; THE CARNELIAN CUBE Howard, R. E.: "Conan" series Leiber, Fritz: "Fafhrd & Gray Mouser" series; et al Lovecraft, H. P. Merritt, A.: CREEP, SHADOW, CREEP; MOON POOL; DWELLERS IN THE MIRAGE; et al Moorcock, Michael: STORMBRINGER; STEALER OF SOULS; "Hawkmoon" series (esp. the first three books) Norton, Andre Tolkien, J. R. R.: THE HOBBIT; "Ring trilogy" Vance, Jack: THE EYES OF THE OVERWORLD; THE DYING EARTH; et al Zelazny, Roger: JACK OF SHADOWS; "Amber" series; et al Category 2 - Have copies of it, but haven’t read it yet.
Brackett, Leigh Carter, Lin: "World's End" series Fox, Gardner: "Kothar" series; "Kyrik" series; et al St. Clair, Margaret: SIGN OF THE LABRYS
Category 3 - Don’t have it, haven’t read it.
Brown, Frederic *de Camp, L. Sprague: LEST DARKNESS FALL; THE FALLIBLE FIEND; et al Derleth, August Dunsany, Lord *Farmer, P. J.: "The World of the Tiers" series; et al Lanier, Sterling: HIERO'S JOURNEY *Offutt, Andrew J.: editor of SWORDS AGAINST DARKNESS III Pratt, Fletcher: BLUE STAR; et al *Saberhagen, Fred: CHANGELING EARTH; et al St. Clair, Margaret: THE SHADOW PEOPLE Weinbaum, Stanley Wellman, Manley Wade Williamson, Jack
The ones marked with a * are authors where I've read some works, just not the ones mentioned in Appendix N.
Finarvyn's much shorter "everyone should read" part of Appendix N
Anderson, Poul: THREE HEARTS AND THREE LIONS; THE BROKEN SWORD Burroughs, Edgar Rice: Mars series Howard, R. E.: "Conan" series (actual REH, not the pastiche stuff) Leiber, Fritz: "Fafhrd & Gray Mouser" series; et al Moorcock, Michael: STORMBRINGER; STEALER OF SOULS Tolkien, J. R. R.: THE HOBBIT; "Ring trilogy" Zelazny, Roger: JACK OF SHADOWS; "Amber" series
|
|
|
Post by True Black Raven on Jul 2, 2021 14:09:41 GMT -5
I've never gotten very far into Vance, though I generally have trouble sticking to a book (maybe a little ADD). I did like the flavor of it, though. For the most part I've only read the App N authors most everyone else has: Lovecraft, Howard, and Tolkien. Love them all. My very favorite Howard is actually the Kull story "The Shadow Kingdom"--snakemen, secret passages through the castle, hacking monsters to pieces, woo hoo! Generally, I love how Howard throws you some combat every 3-5 pages or so. Though not much of a Burroughs fan, I LOVE Leigh Brackett and have read a bunch of her books. Clark Ashton Smith, though not on the list, is probably the biggest influence on the setting of my Lost Continent campaign, particularly the Hyperborea and Zothique. He has great story twists and beautifully weird settings and creatures. I base most of my magic imagery on his descriptions. Not much combat, though. Anybody looks at the "Inspirational Reading" section in the back of Moldvay's Basic? It's worth a gander, as it includes an eclectic mix of scifi and fantasy, as well as including some books for younger kids. I particularly dig the Ursula Leguin Earthsea books. He also remembers to include CAS. (This is actually part of my larger argument about how B/X is really very weird fantasy/ mixed genre, which I will type out somewhere soon).
|
|
|
Post by True Black Raven on Jul 2, 2021 14:10:03 GMT -5
The "Inspirational Reading" section in the back of Moldvay's Basic.
|
|
|
Post by True Black Raven on Jul 2, 2021 14:10:13 GMT -5
I've never gotten very far into Vance, though I generally have trouble sticking to a book (maybe a little ADD). I did like the flavor of it, though. For the most part I've only read the App N authors most everyone else has: Lovecraft, Howard, and Tolkien. Love them all. My very favorite Howard is actually the Kull story "The Shadow Kingdom"--snakemen, secret passages through the castle, hacking monsters to pieces, woo hoo! Generally, I love how Howard throws you some combat every 3-5 pages or so. Though not much of a Burroughs fan, I LOVE Leigh Brackett and have read a bunch of her books. Clark Ashton Smith, though not on the list, is probably the biggest influence on the setting of my Lost Continent campaign, particularly the Hyperborea and Zothique. He has great story twists and beautifully weird settings and creatures. I base most of my magic imagery on his descriptions. Not much combat, though. Anybody looks at the "Inspirational Reading" section in the back of Moldvay's Basic? It's worth a gander, as it includes an eclectic mix of scifi and fantasy, as well as including some books for younger kids. I particularly dig the Ursula Leguin Earthsea books. He also remembers to include CAS. (This is actually part of my larger argument about how B/X is really very weird fantasy/ mixed genre, which I will type out somewhere soon). Anderson, Poul: THREE HEARTS AND THREE LIONS; THE HIGH CRUSADE; THE BROKEN SWORDI've read all three books. The Broken Sword is how elves should have been. Three Hearts and Three Lions is top-notch adventure fantasy. Bellairs, John: THE FACE IN THE FROSTHaven't read this. Brackett, LeighI've read one or two of the Eric John Stark books. A lot closer to "adventure SF" than "science fantasy" as planetary romance authors go. Brown, FredericNothing. I have an anthology on my list of to-buy works. Burroughs, Edgar Rice: "Pellucidar" series; Mars series; Venus series
I've read the first 2 or 3 Barsoom novels. A Princess of Mars is a favorite of mine. I have but haven't yet read any of the Venus stories. Carter, Lin: "World's End" seriesI think Gary either had a soft spot for prose that thuds like wood, or was pulling our legs. I've tried, but I have no intent of finishing this series. I've also tried and failed to read both Jandar of Callisto and Thongor of Lemuria. I love Lin Carter's work as an anthologist, but his original prose is unreadable. de Camp, L. Sprague: LEST DARKNESS FALL; THE FALLIBLE FIEND; et alI've read The Fallible Fiend and a couple of other de Camp originals. A waste of time, particularly the "Reluctant King" series. Haven't read Lest Darkness Fall. de Camp & Pratt: "Harold Shea" series; THE CARNELIAN CUBEThe Incompleat Enchanter and The Carnelian Cube both sit on my bookshelf waiting for a day when I don't like myself very much. Derleth, AugustI had a big hardcover of Derleth stories back when I was in college. I tried reading several and couldn't get along with him very well. I keep meaning to go back but can't find a good volume to do so from. Dunsany, LordI've read King of Elfland's Daughter and parts of his short fiction from the big Gollancz collection Time and the Gods. (It includes all the Pegana stories and everything from Sword of Welleran, etc.) Dunsany's short work is something you have to read, especially if you want to understand early Lovecraft. Farmer, P. J.: "The World of the Tiers" series; et alI have this sitting on my shelf and haven't read it. Fox, Gardner: "Kothar" series; "Kyrik" series; et alI just recently acquired Kothar: Barbarian Swordsman. I intend to read it even though I think this is what Anderson was warning us about in "Of Thud and Blunder." Howard, R. E.: "Conan" seriesI just read "The Scarlet Citadel" and am working on "Queen of the Black Coast." I'm reading through all the Conan stories to make sure I've actually read all of them. Conan is probably my favorite fantasy work by anyone. My favorite is either "A Witch Shall Be Born" or "Red Nails." I've also read several of the Solomon Kane stories, and Howard's pastiche novel Almuric (a deeply inferior planetary romance, possibly half written by Otis Adelbert Kline). Lanier, Sterling: HIERO'S JOURNEYI read this several years back, it's a very good book even if it takes its sweet time getting to the fun parts. Leiber, Fritz: "Fafhrd & Gray Mouser" series; et alI read every scrap of Fafhrd and the Mouser in high school. Still some of my favorite work. "Adept's Gambit" I thought never got its fair shake, but "Bazaar of the Bizarre" is probably the best of his short fiction. Lovecraft, H. P.I've read the majority of Lovecraft's short work. I don't think I've ever gotten all the way through At the Mouths of Madness, I keep meaning to circle back and check that one off. "The Colour out of Space" is his best story, but I do like to indulge in the Dunsany-esque "dream cycle" from time to time. Merritt, A.: CREEP, SHADOW, CREEP; MOON POOL; DWELLERS IN THE MIRAGE; et alI've read The Moon Pool. Merritt's framing stories are tedious but his fantastic content is great. Moorcock, Michael: STORMBRINGER; STEALER OF SOULS; "Hawkmoon" series (esp. the first three books)I have read several of the original Elric novellas, plus the six-volume Ace series of novels, and The Jewel in the Skull. I am definitely a fan of Elric. Norton, AndreI've read Daybreak: 2250 A.D., Storm Over Warlock, and at least one Witch World novel. I love Norton's writing and could just sit and read one of her books without interruption to the end. Offutt, Andrew J.: editor of SWORDS AGAINST DARKNESS IIIRecently acquired this, but have only read the first story in it so far, a Ramsey Campbell story that makes for a good bit of horror/fantasy. Pratt, Fletcher: BLUE STAR; et alI have two copies of The Blue Star and it seems to clash violently with what I actually like out of a fantasy novel, so I never actually finish it. Saberhagen, Fred: CHANGELING EARTH; et alI have one of the "Book of Swords" books but not Changeling Earth. St. Clair, Margaret: THE SHADOW PEOPLE; SIGN OF THE LABRYSI've read Sign of the Labrys. It's OK, kind of weirdly Wicca-trippy. It could go either way between a D&D megadungeon and a Metamorphosis Alpha type under-world. Referees should really read it, if just for gaming ideas. Tolkien, J. R. R.: THE HOBBIT; "Ring trilogy"I've read The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, The Silmarillion, The Children of Hurin, Unfinished Tales, Farmer Giles of Ham, The Tolkien Reader, Smith of Wooton Major, The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, and most of the first five volumes (and chunks of later volumes) of The History of Middle-Earth. I skipped most of Lays of Beleriand, and didn't actually read the Etymologies in The Lost Road; with the later volumes I just dipped into topically, since they were mostly material covered in The Silmarillion. I never read Roverandom or Tolkien's translations. I obviously think rather highly of Tolkien. My favorite story in the whole cycle is Beren and Lúthien. Vance, Jack: THE EYES OF THE OVERWORLD; THE DYING EARTH; et alI've read all four books from the Dying Earth cycle. The first book is the only must-read, and Rhialto the Marvellous seemed particularly unnecessary. I also have Planet of Adventure which I keep meaning to finish; it's referenced elsewhere in the DMG. Weinbaum, StanleyI have a volume of his short fiction from which I've read "A Martian Odyssey." It's such a good story I'm almost shy to read more of his work in case it's not at the same level. Wellman, Manley WadeI've read several of the Silver John stories. They're really good for Appalachian fantasy, if you like your Americana tinged weird fiction. Williamson, JackI have no idea why Williamson is on this list; he was a straight SF writer. I have The Humanoids but haven't read it yet. Zelazny, Roger: JACK OF SHADOWS; "Amber" series; et alI read some of the Amber stuff back in college, and I've read Jack of Shadows. None of it had anything to do with D&D, of course, but it was fun. Oh, and because we're talking about Appendix N, I have to register my standard complaint: Catherine Moore and Clark Ashton Smith belonged on that list. Moore for her spectacular "Jirel" stories ("Black God's Kiss" is a revelation), Smith for his cycles, particularly Hyperborea, Averoigne and Zothique. ("The Tale of Satampra Zeiros" is a D&D adventure.)
|
|
|
Post by True Black Raven on Jul 2, 2021 14:10:34 GMT -5
I think real D&D is something that is alive, no deadness under it at all. Appendix N is relevant (yeah RPGPundit you are dead wrong when it comes to Appendix N) but not as something sacred. It is relevant because it points us back to the real inspirations of D&D (not in the sense that you use it to track where every jot and tittle came from) the old pulp stories, to Howard and Burroughs, to Verne and Wells, to fairy tales and folk tales to myth and legend. Everyone who has not read those things is missing some of the crucial ingredients to make a D&D world come alive. Ignore the video games and ignore all the pop culture references imported into later games. Go read the old versions of fairy tales, myths, legends and ground yourself in the earliest roots of fantasy. OD&D the written game maybe to some extent closed in writing it down but it retains the instructions to play it as an open system ala Arneson. Appendix N is a resource and those that diss Appendix N have an agenda and try to foist expectations on it that it cannot meet and then blame it for not meeting those false expectations because they did not understand it and then they have the nerve to call themselves old school. Read the Appendix N books and others that could have been on the list that are not, for the simple reason that they are great stories. Then go read other books that are great stories. Read stories where men are men and women are women and monsters are scary. No red-blooded man or woman deserves any less.
I think the anti-Appendix N people are being way more ridiculous that the slightly over the top Appendix N fans. It's like they are so desperate to prove that nothing in any of those books had anything to do with D&D. Arneson was not illiterate he had read quite a bit too and he was a big movie fan and there were lots of them on TV back then (a lot of them are available now too). Arneson did not design it in a vacuum and Gygax tweaked it a lot while writing it down. There is a lot of both of them in D&D and of everything that influenced them. Arneson had his influences for the dungeon, when Gygax wrote it down it is not much of a stretch to believe with confidence that his inspirational reading had as much influence as what Arneson showed him in a game or two. Arneson showed it to Gygax and Gygax ran with it. Appendix N sole influence, of course not. Appendix N strong influence, of course. The main point of the current emphasis on Appendix N goes beyond its clear influence on the creators of Our Games. Appendix N is also a time capsule, a documentation of a literary canon that Jeffro clearly demonstrates was intentionally memory holed. The most controversial part of Jeffro's ongoing work is his calling out that memory holing, and naming (big) names. Arguments over the influence of Appendix N on the games is a smokescreen to draw attention away from the other, more serious contentions Jeffro makes. ]Interesting topic. Not familiar with Jeffro's book - I'm that out of the loop. I was going to say something along the lines of "time capsule," anyway. And, without being familiar with this ongoing debate, I'll say that - just in the case of The Lord of the Rings, I think those of us my age or younger (late 30s) probably see the whole thing rather differently from how it was seen at the time. To us, early D&D materials look almost silly in how they lift (and often quantify) material from the text of LOTR. It seems painfully obvious. But at the time, I don't know what was intended, it may have looked like a demonstration of possibilty - here's this interesting and rich literary work, and we've pulled these things from it and semi-quantified them to resolve various events. Similarly...you can take a table and make it make sense in any way in one of your invented worlds. Maybe someone will come along and say "nice idea, but I was there and that isn't how it worked."That's okay with me, though. If you look back at Alarums and Excursions, it gives the impression that...I don't know. That gaming was SO DIFFERENT. That these people were already steeped in all kinds of fantasy fiction, and here was a new thing to do with all that material. Now that D&D and its many descendants are part of our vocabulary and experience from a young age...seems more likely that by the time someone encounters LOTR or Jack Vance, they're likely to view it in D&D terms.
|
|
|
Post by True Black Raven on Jul 2, 2021 14:10:48 GMT -5
How many novels have never been written because of Dungeons & Dragons? Maybe thousands, maybe none. Talent always has a way of bubbling to the surface. I do think that it is telling when a large portion of fantasy fandom actively rejects any growth or change in the genre because it doesn't follow the laws of D&D. New ideas are belittled and rejected because D&D is some kind of yardstick now? I personally reject this notion. The fantasy genre should not have to consult D&D. It should be the other way around, but it isn't. D&D itself is a closed system that actively seeks to shore up any gaps in personal creativity. Is Appendix N to blame for this? This treating out-of-print and possibly out-of-date books as scripture? Was it our job to read these books and adhere to them, or was it to eclipse them? Considering the scarcity of many of them, how many active users who never seen the AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide or even know what Appendix N is are still held in thrall of it without their knowledge or consent? This makes me think of Joseph Campbell's "Hero with a Thousand Faces." We are an innately creative, imaginative and fearful species capable of creating myth from just about anything. Regardless of influences like D&D. I too avoided the Appendix N controversy. I do enjoy many of the works listed therein! I, like Mighty Darci , believe that D&D is alive. Each incarnation and edition is a snapshot of what it is now. We are the discontents who prefer a rawer form of it. Nobody is doing it wrong! Our personal games, no matter how saturated with commercialism, are still ours. What is Appendix N? Is it a blueprint? I don't think so. I came into this hobby in the 90's. I had already enjoyed reading the Conan series, I studied folklore, myth, legend, metaphysics. I had enjoyed great fantasy films and had already enjoyed the fandom associated with the Fantasy genre. The commercial version of AD&D 2nd Edition was what was available at the time and I was a total noob, picking up products and giddy about it! I had no idea what an Appendix N was. Even once I began refereeing my own games I had never heard of it. There is a collection of 2e books that are worth bringing up at this point. The series was called "The Complete Handbooks". The series today is seen as weird and stupid, but at the time of their printing, this stuff was amazing! If we take the first book of the series as an example: "The Complete Fighter's Handbook", it included new rules for the class, explained existing rules more thoroughly, suggested ways to tweak the classes, and all kinds of stuff! But there was this strange chapter called "Role-playing", most of the core complete class books had them, and while the bulk of the information was later added to the core rules system making these books out of date in 2e's own lifetime, this Role-playing section was never repeated, and it took up a good chunk of the book. What it did was that it told players how to play the game. As a noob, I understood the idea of fighting monsters and looking for treasure, but this idea of Role-playing, and how it can affect the game in a positive and rewarding way was, as stupid as it sounds, foreign to me. Once I read this chapter, things began to click. This is a game which you learn by playing it. Most Dungeon Masters of the time were really just players who got stuck DMing, they hosted games that were very mechanical in nature, but once I read this strange chapter on Role-playing, I became a nightmare for them. I also got frustrated by them because they weren't playing this cool game. All encounters don't have to result in combat. Well, in mechanical games they do, but I think that you know where I'm heading with this. What is Appendix N? The prefered way to learn the game is to play, but what if you don't know anybody? You are on your own. Appendix N told new users what the game was about. It told you that these systems are designed to allow users to enter these fictional places. It told you that we should treat each session as if it was a short story, or if we felt bold enough a complete romantic saga. It told you to lift ideas from your favourite sources and add them to your own game. Appendix N told us that this is not meant to be a mechanical game, but a truly interactive experience. Appendix N were examples of world-building and suggestions for children who had picked up the game some amazing books to find. Places that the reader will want to go to, but simply couldn't until this magnificent game made it possible. Is Appendix N holy scripture, or required reading? NO! Chances are if you picked up a copy of Dungeons & Dragons than you are familiar with the genre. You've already got an idea about what this is now. While it can be fun to nitpick the list and tell folks that "This is where the Sleep Spell originated" I don't believe that that was the original point behind its inclusion.
|
|
|
Post by True Black Raven on Jul 2, 2021 14:11:03 GMT -5
I have to admit I am not sure what you are trying to address here - I've read it twice and I am still unsure. It seems to me you are irked at the state of both D&D (most fantasy RPGs) and the state of fantasy fiction. I do not know how it relates to Appendix N, as lets face it D&D seems to have mainly embraced Vance & Tolkien over other Appendix N authors as its core expression. I blame WotC & TSR before them for this. Sure TSR had Dark Sun & Ravensloft which took from other influences listed in Appendix N but if we are honest most D&D and other Fantasy RPGs emulate bland generic pastiches of Tolkien and give Vance only lip service now days. But there are RPG creators that are moving past being generic Tolkien & Vance clones and doing some amazing stuff (Monte Cook's Numenera is a great example though I do not like the Cypher system & Stephen Michael Sechi's Talislanta). I wish more creators of RPGs were as brave as Cook & Sechi, heck I wish more OSR creators would pull deeply from some of the more sci-fantasy stuff like Bouroughs, Vance (beyond the magic system) & others to create settings or systems through rooted in OD&D but tweak it to create something familiar but different. I loved Sechi's Talislanta which began as what seems to be a house-ruled D&D and mined Appendix N for all its worth creating a wonderful and alien sci-fantasy setting that is a huge influence on me. If it wasn't for Ruins of Murkhill I'd never have given Arduin more than a cursory look, but now I love what Hargrave has done with Arduin. I do think part of the problem is how D&D and fantasy gaming are being marketed to the masses. All we get a Tolkien, Howard or generic variations on both in film or tv shows that are shallow and barely even try to emulate the source material (Chronicles of Shannara). I think Jeffro is correct that much of Appendix N is now considered taboo - it is deemed problematic (racist, homophobic & misogynist) but many of today's fantasy fans; they can't get past their indoctrination to enjoy these stories for their historical relevance to our hobby and literature itself. In my most recent blog post in celebration of Gary Gygax I linked to articles displaying this kind of narrow and ideological viewpoint. In my point of view it isn't Appendix N that is the issue it is instead the politically correct (and some would say cultural Marxist) ideology being indoctrinated into our youth by the education system & mass media. The youth (and many adults) can no longer critically think anymore. If a novel, tv show, film or game doesn't toe the ideological line of these of brain numbed masses you'll be vilified as a bigot, a homophobe, Nazi ect. It shuts down creativity & free expression, especially among creative people. I am a conservative leaning libertarian, but as to a few posts here and in the staff discussions can attest to I am more open to certain things than others here - but that is okay. Unlike certain people outside our community I can take criticism and not throw a tantrum; I understand not all of my content will appeal to others here or elsewhere. I just have to post what fits here and leave what doesn't for my blogs instead.& Getting rid of Appendix N isn't what we should do but actually delve into it and see if it can not only grow our understanding of the founders of our beloved hobby but may inform our own creativity. It may just inspire us to look beyond Tolkien, Howard & Vance or at least look deeper than the superficial tropes that are currently being expressed in modern Fantasy RPGs & find new deeper inspiration for our worlds and campaigns. I also think we should be creating our own versions of Appendix N that incorporate things outside the classic AD&D listing that inform our creativity. Sorry for the rambling rant I've been thinking about this since yesterday after skimming through some asinine articles & this thread; so I have a lot going through my head at the moment.
|
|
|
Post by True Black Raven on Jul 2, 2021 14:12:00 GMT -5
What am I trying to address, Hexenritter Verlag ? I think that you nailed it. Appendix N was no longer really referred to after its appearance in the AD&D DMG. What does that mean? Not just to me, but to everybody reading this. No matter what we do, or don't do, I think that it is funny how we as individuals have an uncanny ability to find ourselves in murky water. What we are doing offends somebody someplace. Perhaps it is just a nerd thing? We really really love to bicker and argue about points that the general public could care less about. It's kind of our thing. In regards to Appendix N, a hotly debated subject, I find myself on neutral ground. I haven't read the whole book list, and I doubt that many people have. But, it was put there. Why? Why place that into a book where space was a commodity? Gygax never said why did he? I mean it had to be important else he would have left it out. Now it has been left out, and it deepens the mystery. To me, that signals the game leaving the hands of the hobbyist and is the final result of the state of the current game being discussed at a boardroom table with investors who could care less as long as it is making money (This is a theory). Are they assuming that you already know about Hyboria, or do they want to keep your focus on Forgotten Realms so they can milk you for all that you are worth? Probably both. I won't get into my personal feelings in regards to this right now, besides, I'm pretty sure that we are all on the same page. We aren't new users. We'd rather create our own stuff than spend our time researching books. That is where we are, correct? I'm sure that we all have our opinion, and I just wanted to encourage others to express them.
|
|
|
Post by True Black Raven on Jul 2, 2021 17:52:30 GMT -5
I agree with this & your last post, as they clarified what you meant. Like you I came to D&D late and didn't read much of Appendix N outside Howard, Lovecraft, Leiber, Moorcock (Elric stories) a few others, but that came from going to the library and checking out books in various short story collections that had Swords & Sorcery on the cover or hot fantasy women and ripped barbarians on the cover. I was more into TSR/WotC & Game Workshop's generic fantasy or comics or even books by Eddings, Lance Horner, the Thieves' World anthology and Brust's Vlad Taltos series. Even though I do like using generic fantasy races, a lot of the time it is so my potential gamers will have something familiar to play instead of my normal more alien races and cultures inspired by Talislanta & Science-Fantasy that interests me far more than Tolkien. I do need to read Vance's Dying Earth if only to better understand his influence upon D&D. The only Vance books I've read are his Lyonesse trilogy.
|
|
|
Post by True Black Raven on Jul 2, 2021 17:52:42 GMT -5
What is Appendix N? Is it a blueprint? I don't think so. I came into this hobby in the 90's. I had already enjoyed reading the Conan series, I studied folklore, myth, legend, metaphysics. I had enjoyed great fantasy films and had already enjoyed the fandom associated with the Fantasy genre. The commercial version of AD&D 2nd Edition was what was available at the time and I was a total noob, picking up products and giddy about it! I had no idea what an Appendix N was. Even once I began refereeing my own games I had never heard of it. Not a blueprint for sure, Appendix N is a springboard. It is a statement of "I found inspiration here and you can too." I don't think it is less than that, although it could be more. There is a collection of 2e books that are worth bringing up at this point. The series was called "The Complete Handbooks". The series today is seen as weird and stupid, but at the time of their printing, this stuff was amazing! If we take the first book of the series as an example: "The Complete Fighter's Handbook", it included new rules for the class, explained existing rules more thoroughly, suggested ways to tweak the classes, and all kinds of stuff! But there was this strange chapter called "Role-playing", most of the core complete class books had them, and while the bulk of the information was later added to the core rules system making these books out of date in 2e's own lifetime, this Role-playing section was never repeated, and it took up a good chunk of the book. I've never looked at these, but reading this I think maybe I should. What it did was that it told players how to play the game. As a noob, I understood the idea of fighting monsters and looking for treasure, but this idea of Role-playing, and how it can affect the game in a positive and rewarding way was, as stupid as it sounds, foreign to me. Once I read this chapter, things began to click. This is a game which you learn by playing it. Most Dungeon Masters of the time were really just players who got stuck DMing, they hosted games that were very mechanical in nature, but once I read this strange chapter on Role-playing, I became a nightmare for them. I also got frustrated by them because they weren't playing this cool game. All encounters don't have to result in combat. Well, in mechanical games they do, but I think that you know where I'm heading with this. Yes, you definitely learn by playing and if these books were telling you there are options other than combat, then they are worth reading. What is Appendix N? The preferred way to learn the game is to play, but what if you don't know anybody? You are on your own. Appendix N told new users what the game was about. It told you that these systems are designed to allow users to enter these fictional places. It told you that we should treat each session as if it was a short story, or if we felt bold enough a complete romantic saga. It told you to lift ideas from your favorite sources and add them to your own game. Appendix N told us that this is not meant to be a mechanical game, but a truly interactive experience. Yeah, like I said it is a springboard to the imagination. Appendix N were examples of world-building and suggestions for children who had picked up the game some amazing books to find. Places that the reader will want to go to, but simply couldn't until this magnificent game made it possible. Is Appendix N holy scripture, or required reading? NO! Chances are if you picked up a copy of Dungeons & Dragons than you are familiar with the genre. You've already got an idea about what this is now. While it can be fun to nitpick the list and tell folks that "This is where the Sleep Spell originated" I don't believe that that was the original point behind its inclusion. I think it is safe to say that Gygax and Arneson too, would be horrified if the primary or only thing people got out of any list of books, movies or anything else that were inspirations was to try to figure out what inspired what and when and why. They would both say stop it already and go play the game. I think it is also safe to say that the vast majority of forum and blog posting would have held little if any interest for either of them. Go read the long Gygax Q&A threads at DF or ENWorld, sometimes I swear you can hear his teeth grinding at the questions he is getting and the only reason he stayed to answer their questions is for the connection to the fans, not for the bulk of the conversation. Go back and read a lot of robkuntz 's posts here and elsewhere, his frustration with our conversations, his frustration with the same mind numbing questions from interviewers year after year. He seldom gets asked the questions that he hopes people will ask. They all wanted us to focus on looking forward inspired by the past, not looking backward constantly debating the past. By and large, most forum debate is just that looking back debating the past. Some of the debate goes to the level of, "Did Gygax have a ham sandwich when he thought of this or was he having bacon and eggs?" Why is the Appendix N list so short, why are there so many great books that are not on the list? Simple if Gygax had listed every good inspiring book he had ever read that list would have been terribly intimidating and have taken up several pages.
|
|
|
Post by True Black Raven on Jul 2, 2021 17:53:47 GMT -5
Getting rid of Appendix N isn't what we should do but actually delve into it and see if it can not only grow our understanding of the founders of our beloved hobby but may inform our own creativity. It may just inspire us to look beyond Tolkien, Howard & Vance or at least look deeper than the superficial tropes that are currently being expressed in modern Fantasy RPGs & find new deeper inspiration for our worlds and campaigns. I also think we should be creating our own versions of Appendix N that incorporate things outside the classic AD&D listing that inform our creativity. Sorry for the rambling rant I've been thinking about this since yesterday after skimming through some asinine articles & this thread; so I have a lot going through my head at the moment. Key words/phrases here are " inform our own creativity" and " inspire us to look beyond" and " look deeper than the superficial tropes" and " find new deeper inspiration for our worlds and campaigns" and last but not least " creating our own versions of Appendix N." But, it was put there. Why? Why place that into a book where space was a commodity? Gygax never said why did he? I mean it had to be important else he would have left it out. Now it has been left out, and it deepens the mystery. I think these points tell us why there is an Appendix N and why it was included. And yes, 1000 times yes, we should each have our own personal Appendix N, not that of Gygax, but our own. It was always about, here is a cool idea, we made it our own, go thou and do likewise.
|
|
|
Post by True Black Raven on Jul 2, 2021 17:53:58 GMT -5
The masters. They were very lucky to had been there and experienced all of this stuff, and now must constantly deal with those of us who are rediscovering the old game. I don't fault robkuntz or @gronanofsimmerya for getting frustrated with us. I wish that I could ask those questions that they want to be asked. They lead me to the old game, that is a service that I can never hope to repay them for! This game which hides within the books. This game is so much more than what it became! I entered the field back when the idea was owned by a corporate entity. I was fed lies which I believed to be truths. GM's like me all seem to follow the same path. We start out as consumers, buying everything we can get our hands on, then we suddenly say NO MORE! Maybe we go look at other products, maybe we just decide to work with what we already have accumulated. Eventually, this leads to rejection; not by others, but our rejection of what we have. Our questioning our version of this product and digging deep into the system. Our rejection of what we are told the game is about and how to do it. We reject these books and begin thinking about actually starting from scratch, or as far back as we can go and building it how WE want it. We stop being consumers and become hobbyists again. Yes, we still compare things, we don't reject the idea of the game, instead, we discover the game for the first time. I am here now, and I am filtering information and unlearning. The game was there the whole time, but it takes time to remove what isn't necessary from what is. We find ourselves falling into pitfalls that others believed were shored up, but maybe these pitfalls really take us to where we want to go? OD&D gets me closer to this game, but finding it is a very personal journey. I think that it is comforting to know that I am not doing this on my own. I exalt you - this post sums up my experience to a "T". I bought so much unnecessary product over the years thinking I needed it got immensely frustrated by it all. Why did I need a rule for everything instead of adjudicating things fairly based on the given needs of the current situation and campaign setting I was using. I lost a group because I couldn't deal with it anymore, I wasn't going to run rules heavy games or cater to players unwilling to look beyond mechanical "options" in order to have fun. Coming here has helped open my eyes to what could be if we just went back to basics built upon the foundation laid out by OD&D. All you have to do is look at what Hargrave did with Arduin, Sechi did with Talislanta and say to yourself, "I can do that too". My D&D need not look like Gary's Greyhawk, Arneson's Blackmoor, Greenwood's Forgotten Realms or any other published setting. I can take inspiration from Bode, Ploog, Russ Nicholson, Trampier, Battle chasers, Bouroughs, Science fiction, anime/manga, HP Lovecraft and create something outside the generic Tolkien-Vance pastiches out there now that speaks to me as a creative individual.
|
|
|
Post by True Black Raven on Jul 2, 2021 17:54:09 GMT -5
On Page 12 of the 5E Players Handbook is Appendix E; Inspiration. • Ahmed, Saladin. Throne of the Crescent Moon. • Alexander, Lloyd.The Book of Three and The rest of the Chronicles of Prydain series. • Anderson, Paul. The Broken Sword, The High Crusade, and Three Hearts and Three Lions. • Anthony, Piers. Split Infinity and the rest of the Apprentice Adept series. • Augusta, Lady Gregory. Gods and Fighting Men. • Bear, Elizabeth. Range of Ghosts and the rest of the Eternal Sky trilogy. • Bellairs, John. The Face in the Frost. • Brackett, Leigh. The Best of Leigh Brackett, The Long Tomorrow, and The Sword of Rhiannon. • Brooks, Terry. The Sword of Shannara and the rest of the Shannara noveis. • Brown, Fredric. HaJl of Mirrors and What Mad Universe. • Bulfinch, Thomas. Bulfinch's Mythology. • Burroughs, Edgar Rice. At the Earth's Core and the rest of the Pellucidar series, Pirates of Venus and the rest of The Venus series, and A Princess of Mars and the rest of the Mars series. • Carter, Lin. Warrior of Worlds End and the rest of the World's End series. • Cook, Glen. The Black Company and the rest of the Black Company series. • de Camp, L. Sprague. The Fallible Fiend and Lest Darkness Fall. • de Camp, L. Sprague & Fletcher Pratt. The Compleat Enchanter and the rest of the Harold Shea series, and Carnelian Cube. • Derleth, August and H.P. Lovecraft. Watchers out of Time. • Dunsany, Lord. The Book of Wonder, The Essential Lord Dunsany Collection, The Gods of Pegana, The King of Elfland's Daughter, Lord Dunsany Compendium, and The Sword of Welleran and Other Tales. • Farmer, Philipjose. Maker of Universes and The rest of the World of Tiers series. • Fax, Gardner. Kothar and the Conjurer's Curse and the rest of the Kolhar series, and Kyrik and the Lost Queen and the rest of the Kyrik series. • Froud, Brian & Alan Lee. Faeries. • Hickman, Tracy & Margarel Weis. Dragons of Autumn Twilight and the rest of the Chronicles Trilogy. • Hodgson, William Hope. The Night Land. • Howard, Robert E. The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian and the rest of the Conan series. • Jemisin, N.K. The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms and the rest of the lnheritance series, The Killing Moon, and The Shadowed Sun. • Jordan, Robert. The Eye of the World and the rest of the Wheel of Time series. • Kay, Guy Gavriel. Tigana. • King, Stephen. The Eyes of the Dragon. • Lanier, Sterling. Hiero's Journey and The Unforsaken Hiero. • LeGuin, Ursula. A Wizard of Earthsea and the rest of the Earthsea series. • Leiber, Fritz. Swords and Deviltry and the rest of the Fafhrd & Gray Mouser series. • Lovecraft, H.P. The Complete Works. • Lynch, Scott. The Lies of Locke Lamora and the rest of the Gentlemen Bastard series. • Martin, George RR. A Game of Thrones and the rest of the Song of Ice and Fire series. • McKillip. Patricia. The Forgotten Beasts of Eld. • Merritt, A. Creep, Shadow, Creep; Dwellers in the Mirage; and The Moon Pool. • Miéville, China. Perdido Street Station and the other Bas-Lag novels. • Moorcock, Michael. Elric of Melniboné and the rest of the Elric series, and The jewel in the Skull and the rest of the Hawkmoon series. • Norton, Andre. Quag Keep and Witch World. • Offutt, Andrew J., ed. Swords against Darkness III. • Peake, Mervyn. Titos Groan and the rest of the Gormenghast series. • Pratchelt, Terry. The Colour of Magic and the rest of the Discworld series. • Pratt, Fletcher. Blue Star. • Rothfuss, Patrick. The Name of the Wind and the rest of the Kingkiller series. • Saberhagen, Fred. The Broken Lands and Changeling Earth. • Salvatore, RA. The Crystal Shard and the rest of The Legend of Drizzt. • Sanderson, Brandon. Mistborn and the rest of the Mislborn trilogy. • Smith, Clark Ashton. The Return of the Sorcerer. • St. Clair, Margaret. Change the Sky and Other Stories, The Shadow People, and Sign of the Labrys. • Tolkien, J.R.R The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings. and The Silmarillion. • Tolstoy, Nikolai. The Coming of the King. • Vance, Jack. The Dying Earth and The Eyes of the Overworld. • Weinbaum, Stanley. Valley of Dreams and The Worlds of Ir. • Wellman, Manly Wade. The Golgotha Dancers. • Williamson, Jack. The Cosmic Express and The Pygmy Planet. • Wolfe, Gene. The Shadow of the Torturer and the rest of The Book of the New Sun. • Zelazny, Roger. Jack of Shadows and Nine Princes in Amber and the rest of the Amber series. I don't know if this is relevant to the discussion, but with mention of D&D being alive, I do think this list above, taken from the text, proves that it is VERY MUCH ALIVE AND BREATHING with OLD SCHOOLINESS. There are quite a few on that list that I am unfamiliar with, but I don't think I ever heard anyone accuse Salvatore, Hickman, Tracy & Margaret Weis, or& Terry Brooks, of being old school before. I would add that anyone that has a problem with John Norman's Gor books, but loves George RR Martin, A Game of Thrones and the rest of the Song of Ice and Fire series is a complete hypocrite. Both writers are perverts and if you accept one you have to accept the other. The first few Gor books have a lot of stuff that you can borrow, but after that the series goes down hill fast into endless porn scenes. The biggest different between the two writers is that Norman is an easy read and Martin is unreadable IMO, but both are obsessed with sex (to the detriment of their books) and that is not what I read books for, I and most of us have a relationship for that.
|
|
|
Post by True Black Raven on Jul 2, 2021 17:54:21 GMT -5
Same with me. I am formulating a radical (for me!) idea - that a workable skirmish combat system is sufficient for a role-playing game. No other mechanics are necessary; some may be useful. I'm probably several steps behind the more profound thinkers hereabouts, though. I'd love to see what you come up with randyb . I've been brainstorming ideas for ways to tweak OD&D to fit the tone and style of my more alien science fantasy inspired settings. Basically mine the 3LBBs & supplements, plus Chainmail (or Justen Brown's The Big Brown Book) for inspiration for a house ruled system that is OD&D at its roots but fits the above settings better. I'd like to see this. Also would like to see a minimal magic system, if anyone's tinkering... What kind of minimal magic system? Something that emulates low magic settings or just a very simplified system for ease of use? I have an idea that would allow the DM to consistantly apply spell mechanics without the player knowing anything about how they actually function. The player would describe a spell, say, lightning bolt at an enemy, then I would apply the system for damage, if any, based on their level. Scrolls would work normally, but the magic system would be point based, the spells getting progressively weaker until the wizard rests. I've been trying to design my own alternate magic system for my science fantasy/ weird fantasy settings but keep it simple enough to run on the fly. I've been trying to design my own alternate magic system for my science fantasy/ weird fantasy settings but keep it simple enough to run on the fly. Same with me. I am formulating a radical (for me!) idea - that a workable skirmish combat system is sufficient for a role-playing game. No other mechanics are necessary; some may be useful. I'm probably several steps behind the more profound thinkers hereabouts, though. Write it up and start a thread randyb , we'd love to see it. We have profound thinkers? Where? Looks around? Nope, I just see a bunch of fun loving people hanging out, you're in good company randyb . Thanks for the votes of confidence! It's more a personal philosophy of gaming than any plans for devising game mechanics. Take a skirmish game of your choice, add relevant rules if and as needed (post-battle survival, advancement, distinction between special characters and grunts, etc.) and run a campaign. It shifts toward RPG when you free-form the between-battles stuff - whatever the group wants to address. It can be played post-1980 ensemble style, with all players on the same side, or pre-1980 cooperation/competition/conflict style, with alliances and rivalries among players. The campaign can scale up as time passes, especially if the skirmish game has an interface with a larger scale wargame.
|
|