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Post by ripx187 on Jul 27, 2018 15:04:17 GMT -5
Folks make a lot-to-do about Appendix N, sometimes to the point of silliness. There are specific examples of heavy influence which steered D&D into a specific direction. A famous example being Jack Vance and his impact on Gary's magic system. Today, we zoom ahead and we must face the facts that more people are familiar with D&D than they are with most of the titles given in Appendix N. The game of Dungeons & Dragons became pop culture. It, in turn, inspired the new medium of computer gaming to attempt to design D&D games with a simulated DM and could be played solo. Now you see the video game influencing the direction of Dungeons & Dragons. The game itself is different. We live in a world saturated with things to do, but here we are. Groups of people still meet up and play a game that takes place in our minds. Graphics and video game design, as highly advanced as it is, has yet to accomplish its original goal of replacing the Dungeon Master. Why are we still doing this? I think that robkuntz hit the nail on the head with his definitions of Closed and Open Systems. The human brain is capable of open systems, while the computer is not. It is the open systems which define the necessary elements of analogue gaming, and it is the mastery of these open systems by the player that makes this game what it is. But, here is the deal: The rulebooks themselves are closed systems. We do need closed systems for the game to function properly, but do we need the system of Dungeons & Dragons or whatever to accomplish it? The game itself has been evolving and changing since its creation into its own mass marketed being. At what point in our path to becoming Gamemasters is the dependence on a closed system just laziness or even worse? Actually containing the creativity within us! We have users here who never left the original version of the game, those of us who seek to strip the social and commercial state of the game back to its basic components, or even further. Some of us are here to unlock the mystery of Arenson who got upset with the commercial production of D&D itself. What is D&D about? Why did this weird game that asked so much of the referee become pop culture? What makes us always come back? Is it the desire to explore and exist in a fantasy realm? Does this speak to our need for new characters, or to take a static and unchanging book and make it even more interactive? Does a list of books written 40 years ago really matter anymore? There is an underlying deadness to D&D. Those dumb influences which have actually taken over public consciousness and morphed them from fantasy to some dull expectation. Mention a Goblin to anybody and even if they never sat down to play D&D, they will instantly think of a low-level monster. Is this acceptable? It speaks too highly of a mechanical system which has remained unchanged for far too long. Monsters reduced to a mathematical formula, that is horrible! But this is the end result of D&D's influence on popular culture. How many novels have never been written because of Dungeons & Dragons? Maybe thousands, maybe none. Talent always has a way of bubbling to the surface. I do think that it is telling when a large portion of fantasy fandom actively rejects any growth or change in the genre because it doesn't follow the laws of D&D. New ideas are belittled and rejected because D&D is some kind of yardstick now? I personally reject this notion. The fantasy genre should not have to consult D&D. It should be the other way around, but it isn't. D&D itself is a closed system that actively seeks to shore up any gaps in personal creativity. Is Appendix N to blame for this? This treating out-of-print and possibly out-of-date books as scripture? Was it our job to read these books and adhere to them, or was it to eclipse them? Considering the scarcity of many of them, how many active users who never seen the AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide or even know what Appendix N is are still held in thrall of it without their knowledge or consent? Maybe I have it wrong. Maybe the genre itself was exhausted 40 years ago, and the only thing that keeps it alive is Dungeons & Dragons? Maybe Appendix N must never change. Must never have items removed or new sources added. I would hate for this to be true. Personally, I couldn't write my own Appendix N. There are no examples of it which fully dictate any direction of where my game goes; at least none that I can see through the trees. How about you? |
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Post by Mighty Darci on Jul 27, 2018 17:23:24 GMT -5
I think real D&D is something that is alive, no deadness under it at all. Appendix N is relevant (yeah RPGPundit you are dead wrong when it comes to Appendix N) but not as something sacred. It is relevant because it points us back to the real inspirations of D&D (not in the sense that you use it to track where every jot and tittle came from) the old pulp stories, to Howard and Burroughs, to Verne and Wells, to fairy tales and folk tales to myth and legend. Everyone who has not read those things is missing some of the crucial ingredients to make a D&D world come alive. Ignore the video games and ignore all the pop culture references imported into later games. Go read the old versions of fairy tales, myths, legends and ground yourself in the earliest roots of fantasy. OD&D the written game maybe to some extent closed in writing it down but it retains the instructions to play it as an open system ala Arneson.
Appendix N is a resource and those that diss Appendix N have an agenda and try to foist expectations on it that it cannot meet and then blame it for not meeting those false expectations because they did not understand it and then they have the nerve to call themselves old school.
Read the Appendix N books and others that could have been on the list that are not, for the simple reason that they are great stories. Then go read other books that are great stories. Read stories where men are men and women are women and monsters are scary. No red-blooded man or woman deserves any less.
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Post by xizallian on Jul 27, 2018 21:00:06 GMT -5
I think the anti-Appendix N people are being way more ridiculous that the slightly over the top Appendix N fans. It's like they are so desperate to prove that nothing in any of those books had anything to do with D&D. Arneson was not illiterate he had read quite a bit too and he was a big movie fan and there were lots of them on TV back then (a lot of them are available now too). Arneson did not design it in a vacuum and Gygax tweaked it a lot while writing it down. There is a lot of both of them in D&D and of everything that influenced them. Arneson had his influences for the dungeon, when Gygax wrote it down it is not much of a stretch to believe with confidence that his inspirational reading had as much influence as what Arneson showed him in a game or two. Arneson showed it to Gygax and Gygax ran with it. Appendix N sole influence, of course not. Appendix N strong influence, of course.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2018 21:25:12 GMT -5
I haven’t run into that group yet but I am not surprised to hear they exist. Having read many of the Appendix N works before OD&D was published in 1974? I have no issue with all believing they were an influence on both the game and the imaginations of both authors.
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Post by xizallian on Jul 27, 2018 21:52:51 GMT -5
I haven’t run into that group yet but I am not surprised to hear they exist. Having read many of the Appendix N works before OD&D was published in 1974? I have no issue with all believing they were an influence on both the game and the imaginations of both authors. You missed all the posts by the people who had hysterics about Jeffro's Appendix N book elsewhere? You didn't miss much. |
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Post by randyb on Jul 28, 2018 8:06:11 GMT -5
I haven’t run into that group yet but I am not surprised to hear they exist. Having read many of the Appendix N works before OD&D was published in 1974? I have no issue with all believing they were an influence on both the game and the imaginations of both authors. You missed all the posts by the people who had hysterics about Jeffro's Appendix N book elsewhere? You didn't miss much. The main point of the current emphasis on Appendix N goes beyond its clear influence on the creators of Our Games. Appendix N is also a time capsule, a documentation of a literary canon that Jeffro clearly demonstrates was intentionally memory holed. The most controversial part of Jeffro's ongoing work is his calling out that memory holing, and naming (big) names. Arguments over the influence of Appendix N on the games is a smokescreen to draw attention away from the other, more serious contentions Jeffro makes. |
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Post by hengest on Jul 28, 2018 10:19:50 GMT -5
You missed all the posts by the people who had hysterics about Jeffro's Appendix N book elsewhere? You didn't miss much. The main point of the current emphasis on Appendix N goes beyond its clear influence on the creators of Our Games. Appendix N is also a time capsule, a documentation of a literary canon that Jeffro clearly demonstrates was intentionally memory holed. The most controversial part of Jeffro's ongoing work is his calling out that memory holing, and naming (big) names. Arguments over the influence of Appendix N on the games is a smokescreen to draw attention away from the other, more serious contentions Jeffro makes. Interesting topic. Not familiar with Jeffro's book - I'm that out of the loop. I was going to say something along the lines of "time capsule," anyway. And, without being familiar with this ongoing debate, I'll say that - just in the case of The Lord of the Rings, I think those of us my age or younger (late 30s) probably see the whole thing rather differently from how it was seen at the time. To us, early D&D materials look almost silly in how they lift (and often quantify) material from the text of LOTR. It seems painfully obvious. But at the time, I don't know what was intended, it may have looked like a demonstration of possibilty - here's this interesting and rich literary work, and we've pulled these things from it and semi-quantified them to resolve various events. Similarly...you can take a table and make it make sense in any way in one of your invented worlds. Maybe someone will come along and say "nice idea, but I was there and that isn't how it worked." That's okay with me, though. If you look back at Alarums and Excursions, it gives the impression that...I don't know. That gaming was SO DIFFERENT. That these people were already steeped in all kinds of fantasy fiction, and here was a new thing to do with all that material. Now that D&D and its many descendants are part of our vocabulary and experience from a young age...seems more likely that by the time someone encounters LOTR or Jack Vance, they're likely to view it in D&D terms. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2018 10:27:48 GMT -5
I guess I’m a little out to sea then. I really don’t know what the controversy is all about, I’m having trouble imagining there is one. I think that brings me to EOL on this thread.
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Post by El Borak on Jul 28, 2018 11:13:47 GMT -5
You missed all the posts by the people who had hysterics about Jeffro's Appendix N book elsewhere? You didn't miss much. The main point of the current emphasis on Appendix N goes beyond its clear influence on the creators of Our Games. Appendix N is also a time capsule, a documentation of a literary canon that Jeffro clearly demonstrates was intentionally memory holed. The most controversial part of Jeffro's ongoing work is his calling out that memory holing, and naming (big) names. Arguments over the influence of Appendix N on the games is a smokescreen to draw attention away from the other, more serious contentions Jeffro makes. There is a lot of memory holing going on right now, along with the attempt at imposition of *Blackwhite ala 1984 in old school gaming and of course the creating of Unpersons. I think Jeffro makes some really good points. |
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Post by El Borak on Jul 28, 2018 11:16:07 GMT -5
If you look back at Alarums and Excursions, it gives the impression that...I don't know. That gaming was SO DIFFERENT. That these people were already steeped in all kinds of fantasy fiction, and here was a new thing to do with all that material. That is precisely it. Now that D&D and its many descendants are part of our vocabulary and experience from a young age...seems more likely that by the time someone encounters LOTR or Jack Vance, they're likely to view it in D&D terms. Unfortunately this is true. |
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Post by simrion on Jul 28, 2018 11:36:35 GMT -5
How many novels have never been written because of Dungeons & Dragons? Maybe thousands, maybe none. Talent always has a way of bubbling to the surface. I do think that it is telling when a large portion of fantasy fandom actively rejects any growth or change in the genre because it doesn't follow the laws of D&D. New ideas are belittled and rejected because D&D is some kind of yardstick now? I personally reject this notion. The fantasy genre should not have to consult D&D. It should be the other way around, but it isn't. D&D itself is a closed system that actively seeks to shore up any gaps in personal creativity. Is Appendix N to blame for this? This treating out-of-print and possibly out-of-date books as scripture? Was it our job to read these books and adhere to them, or was it to eclipse them? Considering the scarcity of many of them, how many active users who never seen the AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide or even know what Appendix N is are still held in thrall of it without their knowledge or consent? This makes me think of Joseph Campbell's "Hero with a Thousand Faces." We are an innately creative, imaginative and fearful species capable of creating myth from just about anything. Regardless of influences like D&D. I too avoided the Appendix N controversy. I do enjoy many of the works listed therein! |
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Post by El Borak on Jul 28, 2018 12:29:25 GMT -5
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Post by ripx187 on Jul 28, 2018 14:19:01 GMT -5
I, like Mighty Darci, believe that D&D is alive. Each incarnation and edition is a snapshot of what it is now. We are the discontents who prefer a rawer form of it. Nobody is doing it wrong! Our personal games, no matter how saturated with commercialism, are still ours. What is Appendix N? Is it a blueprint? I don't think so. I came into this hobby in the 90's. I had already enjoyed reading the Conan series, I studied folklore, myth, legend, metaphysics. I had enjoyed great fantasy films and had already enjoyed the fandom associated with the Fantasy genre. The commercial version of AD&D 2nd Edition was what was available at the time and I was a total noob, picking up products and giddy about it! I had no idea what an Appendix N was. Even once I began refereeing my own games I had never heard of it. There is a collection of 2e books that are worth bringing up at this point. The series was called "The Complete Handbooks". The series today is seen as weird and stupid, but at the time of their printing, this stuff was amazing! If we take the first book of the series as an example: "The Complete Fighter's Handbook", it included new rules for the class, explained existing rules more thoroughly, suggested ways to tweak the classes, and all kinds of stuff! But there was this strange chapter called "Role-playing", most of the core complete class books had them, and while the bulk of the information was later added to the core rules system making these books out of date in 2e's own lifetime, this Role-playing section was never repeated, and it took up a good chunk of the book. What it did was that it told players how to play the game. As a noob, I understood the idea of fighting monsters and looking for treasure, but this idea of Role-playing, and how it can affect the game in a positive and rewarding way was, as stupid as it sounds, foreign to me. Once I read this chapter, things began to click. This is a game which you learn by playing it. Most Dungeon Masters of the time were really just players who got stuck DMing, they hosted games that were very mechanical in nature, but once I read this strange chapter on Role-playing, I became a nightmare for them. I also got frustrated by them because they weren't playing this cool game. All encounters don't have to result in combat. Well, in mechanical games they do, but I think that you know where I'm heading with this. What is Appendix N? The prefered way to learn the game is to play, but what if you don't know anybody? You are on your own. Appendix N told new users what the game was about. It told you that these systems are designed to allow users to enter these fictional places. It told you that we should treat each session as if it was a short story, or if we felt bold enough a complete romantic saga. It told you to lift ideas from your favourite sources and add them to your own game. Appendix N told us that this is not meant to be a mechanical game, but a truly interactive experience. Appendix N were examples of world-building and suggestions for children who had picked up the game some amazing books to find. Places that the reader will want to go to, but simply couldn't until this magnificent game made it possible. Is Appendix N holy scripture, or required reading? NO! Chances are if you picked up a copy of Dungeons & Dragons than you are familiar with the genre. You've already got an idea about what this is now. While it can be fun to nitpick the list and tell folks that "This is where the Sleep Spell originated" I don't believe that that was the original point behind its inclusion. |
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Jul 28, 2018 14:50:11 GMT -5
Folks make a lot-to-do about Appendix N, sometimes to the point of silliness. There are specific examples of heavy influence which steered D&D into a specific direction. A famous example being Jack Vance and his impact on Gary's magic system. Today, we zoom ahead and we must face the facts that more people are familiar with D&D than they are with most of the titles given in Appendix N. The game of Dungeons & Dragons became pop culture. It, in turn, inspired the new medium of computer gaming to attempt to design D&D games with a simulated DM and could be played solo. Now you see the video game influencing the direction of Dungeons & Dragons. The game itself is different. We live in a world saturated with things to do, but here we are. Groups of people still meet up and play a game that takes place in our minds. Graphics and video game design, as highly advanced as it is, has yet to accomplish its original goal of replacing the Dungeon Master. Why are we still doing this? I think that robkuntz hit the nail on the head with his definitions of Closed and Open Systems. The human brain is capable of open systems, while the computer is not. It is the open systems which define the necessary elements of analogue gaming, and it is the mastery of these open systems by the player that makes this game what it is. But, here is the deal: The rulebooks themselves are closed systems. We do need closed systems for the game to function properly, but do we need the system of Dungeons & Dragons or whatever to accomplish it? The game itself has been evolving and changing since its creation into its own mass marketed being. At what point in our path to becoming Gamemasters is the dependence on a closed system just laziness or even worse? Actually containing the creativity within us! We have users here who never left the original version of the game, those of us who seek to strip the social and commercial state of the game back to its basic components, or even further. Some of us are here to unlock the mystery of Arenson who got upset with the commercial production of D&D itself. What is D&D about? Why did this weird game that asked so much of the referee become pop culture? What makes us always come back? Is it the desire to explore and exist in a fantasy realm? Does this speak to our need for new characters, or to take a static and unchanging book and make it even more interactive? Does a list of books written 40 years ago really matter anymore? There is an underlying deadness to D&D. Those dumb influences which have actually taken over public consciousness and morphed them from fantasy to some dull expectation. Mention a Goblin to anybody and even if they never sat down to play D&D, they will instantly think of a low-level monster. Is this acceptable? It speaks too highly of a mechanical system which has remained unchanged for far too long. Monsters reduced to a mathematical formula, that is horrible! But this is the end result of D&D's influence on popular culture. How many novels have never been written because of Dungeons & Dragons? Maybe thousands, maybe none. Talent always has a way of bubbling to the surface. I do think that it is telling when a large portion of fantasy fandom actively rejects any growth or change in the genre because it doesn't follow the laws of D&D. New ideas are belittled and rejected because D&D is some kind of yardstick now? I personally reject this notion. The fantasy genre should not have to consult D&D. It should be the other way around, but it isn't. D&D itself is a closed system that actively seeks to shore up any gaps in personal creativity. Is Appendix N to blame for this? This treating out-of-print and possibly out-of-date books as scripture? Was it our job to read these books and adhere to them, or was it to eclipse them? Considering the scarcity of many of them, how many active users who never seen the AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide or even know what Appendix N is are still held in thrall of it without their knowledge or consent? Maybe I have it wrong. Maybe the genre itself was exhausted 40 years ago, and the only thing that keeps it alive is Dungeons & Dragons? Maybe Appendix N must never change. Must never have items removed or new sources added. I would hate for this to be true. Personally, I couldn't write my own Appendix N. There are no examples of it which fully dictate any direction of where my game goes; at least none that I can see through the trees. How about you? I have to admit I am not sure what you are trying to address here - I've read it twice and I am still unsure. It seems to me you are irked at the state of both D&D (& most fantasy RPGs) and the state of fantasy fiction. I do not know how it relates to Appendix N, as lets face it D&D seems to have mainly embraced Vance & Tolkien over other Appendix N authors as its core expression. I blame WotC & TSR before them for this. Sure TSR had Dark Sun & Ravensloft which took from other influences listed in Appendix N but if we are honest most D&D and other Fantasy RPGs emulate bland generic pastiches of Tolkien and give Vance only lip service now days. But there are RPG creators that are moving past being generic Tolkien & Vance clones and doing some amazing stuff (Monte Cook's Numenera is a great example though I do not like the Cypher system & Stephen Michael Sechi's Talislanta). I wish more creators of RPGs were as brave as Cook & Sechi, heck I wish more OSR creators would pull deeply from some of the more sci-fantasy stuff like Bouroughs, Vance (beyond the magic system) & others to create settings or systems through rooted in OD&D but tweak it to create something familiar but different. I loved Sechi's Talislanta which began as what seems to be a house-ruled D&D and mined Appendix N for all its worth creating a wonderful and alien sci-fantasy setting that is a huge influence on me. If it wasn't for Ruins of Murkhill I'd never have given Arduin more than a cursory look, but now I love what Hargrave has done with Arduin. I do think part of the problem is how D&D and fantasy gaming are being marketed to the masses. All we get a Tolkien, Howard or generic variations on both in film or tv shows that are shallow and barely even try to emulate the source material (Chronicles of Shannara). I think Jeffro is correct that much of Appendix N is now considered taboo - it is deemed problematic (racist, homophobic & misogynist) but many of today's fantasy fans; they can't get past their indoctrination to enjoy these stories for their historical relevance to our hobby and literature itself. In my most recent blog post in celebration of Gary Gygax I linked to articles displaying this kind of narrow and ideological viewpoint. In my point of view it isn't Appendix N that is the issue it is instead the politically correct (and some would say cultural Marxist) ideology being indoctrinated into our youth by the education system & mass media. The youth (and many adults) can no longer critically think anymore. If a novel, tv show, film or game doesn't toe the ideological line of these of brain numbed masses you'll be vilified as a bigot, a homophobe, Nazi ect. It shuts down creativity & free expression, especially among creative people. I am a conservative leaning libertarian, but as to a few posts here and in the staff discussions can attest to I am more open to certain things than others here - but that is okay. Unlike certain people outside our community I can take criticism and not throw a tantrum; I understand not all of my content will appeal to others here or elsewhere. I just have to post what fits here and leave what doesn't for my blogs instead. Getting rid of Appendix N isn't what we should do but actually delve into it and see if it can not only grow our understanding of the founders of our beloved hobby but may inform our own creativity. It may just inspire us to look beyond Tolkien, Howard & Vance or at least look deeper than the superficial tropes that are currently being expressed in modern Fantasy RPGs & find new deeper inspiration for our worlds and campaigns. I also think we should be creating our own versions of Appendix N that incorporate things outside the classic AD&D listing that inform our creativity. Sorry for the rambling rant I've been thinking about this since yesterday after skimming through some asinine articles & this thread; so I have a lot going through my head at the moment. |
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Post by ripx187 on Jul 28, 2018 15:40:10 GMT -5
What am I trying to address, Hexenritter Verlag? I think that you nailed it. Appendix N was no longer really referred to after its appearance in the AD&D DMG. What does that mean? Not just to me, but to everybody reading this. No matter what we do, or don't do, I think that it is funny how we as individuals have an uncanny ability to find ourselves in murky water. What we are doing offends somebody someplace. Perhaps it is just a nerd thing? We really really love to bicker and argue about points that the general public could care less about. It's kind of our thing. In regards to Appendix N, a hotly debated subject, I find myself on neutral ground. I haven't read the whole book list, and I doubt that many people have. But, it was put there. Why? Why place that into a book where space was a commodity? Gygax never said why did he? I mean it had to be important else he would have left it out. Now it has been left out, and it deepens the mystery. To me, that signals the game leaving the hands of the hobbyist and is the final result of the state of the current game being discussed at a boardroom table with investors who could care less as long as it is making money (This is a theory). Are they assuming that you already know about Hyboria, or do they want to keep your focus on Forgotten Realms so they can milk you for all that you are worth? Probably both. I won't get into my personal feelings in regards to this right now, besides, I'm pretty sure that we are all on the same page. We aren't new users. We'd rather create our own stuff than spend our time researching books. That is where we are, correct? I'm sure that we all have our opinion, and I just wanted to encourage others to express them. |
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Jul 28, 2018 15:55:57 GMT -5
What am I trying to address, Hexenritter Verlag ? I think that you nailed it. Appendix N was no longer really referred to after its appearance in the AD&D DMG. What does that mean? Not just to me, but to everybody reading this. No matter what we do, or don't do, I think that it is funny how we as individuals have an uncanny ability to find ourselves in murky water. What we are doing offends somebody someplace. Perhaps it is just a nerd thing? We really really love to bicker and argue about points that the general public could care less about. It's kind of our thing. In regards to Appendix N, a hotly debated subject, I find myself on neutral ground. I haven't read the whole book list, and I doubt that many people have. But, it was put there. Why? Why place that into a book where space was a commodity? Gygax never said why did he? I mean it had to be important else he would have left it out. Now it has been left out, and it deepens the mystery. To me, that signals the game leaving the hands of the hobbyist and is the final result of the state of the current game being discussed at a boardroom table with investors who could care less as long as it is making money (This is a theory). Are they assuming that you already know about Hyboria, or do they want to keep your focus on Forgotten Realms so they can milk you for all that you are worth? Probably both. I won't get into my personal feelings in regards to this right now, besides, I'm pretty sure that we are all on the same page. We aren't new users. We'd rather create our own stuff than spend our time researching books. That is where we are, correct? I'm sure that we all have our opinion, and I just wanted to encourage others to express them. I agree with this & your last post, as they clarified what you meant. Like you I came to D&D late and didn't read much of Appendix N outside Howard, Lovecraft, Leiber, Moorcock (Elric stories) & a few others, but that came from going to the library and checking out books in various short story collections that had Swords & Sorcery on the cover or hot fantasy women and ripped barbarians on the cover. I was more into TSR/WotC & Game Workshop's generic fantasy or comics or even books by Eddings, Lance Horner, the Thieves' World anthology & Brust's Vlad Taltos series. Even though I do like using generic fantasy races, a lot of the time it is so my potential gamers will have something familiar to play instead of my normal more alien races and cultures inspired by Talislanta & Science-Fantasy that interests me far more than Tolkien. I do need to read Vance's Dying Earth if only to better understand his influence upon D&D. The only Vance books I've read are his Lyonesse trilogy. |
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Post by True Black Raven on Jul 28, 2018 16:31:25 GMT -5
What is Appendix N? Is it a blueprint? I don't think so. I came into this hobby in the 90's. I had already enjoyed reading the Conan series, I studied folklore, myth, legend, metaphysics. I had enjoyed great fantasy films and had already enjoyed the fandom associated with the Fantasy genre. The commercial version of AD&D 2nd Edition was what was available at the time and I was a total noob, picking up products and giddy about it! I had no idea what an Appendix N was. Even once I began refereeing my own games I had never heard of it. Not a blueprint for sure, Appendix N is a springboard. It is a statement of "I found inspiration here and you can too." I don't think it is less than that, although it could be more. There is a collection of 2e books that are worth bringing up at this point. The series was called "The Complete Handbooks". The series today is seen as weird and stupid, but at the time of their printing, this stuff was amazing! If we take the first book of the series as an example: "The Complete Fighter's Handbook", it included new rules for the class, explained existing rules more thoroughly, suggested ways to tweak the classes, and all kinds of stuff! But there was this strange chapter called "Role-playing", most of the core complete class books had them, and while the bulk of the information was later added to the core rules system making these books out of date in 2e's own lifetime, this Role-playing section was never repeated, and it took up a good chunk of the book. I've never looked at these, but reading this I think maybe I should. What it did was that it told players how to play the game. As a noob, I understood the idea of fighting monsters and looking for treasure, but this idea of Role-playing, and how it can affect the game in a positive and rewarding way was, as stupid as it sounds, foreign to me. Once I read this chapter, things began to click. This is a game which you learn by playing it. Most Dungeon Masters of the time were really just players who got stuck DMing, they hosted games that were very mechanical in nature, but once I read this strange chapter on Role-playing, I became a nightmare for them. I also got frustrated by them because they weren't playing this cool game. All encounters don't have to result in combat. Well, in mechanical games they do, but I think that you know where I'm heading with this. Yes, you definitely learn by playing and if these books were telling you there are options other than combat, then they are worth reading. What is Appendix N? The prefered way to learn the game is to play, but what if you don't know anybody? You are on your own. Appendix N told new users what the game was about. It told you that these systems are designed to allow users to enter these fictional places. It told you that we should treat each session as if it was a short story, or if we felt bold enough a complete romantic saga. It told you to lift ideas from your favourite sources and add them to your own game. Appendix N told us that this is not meant to be a mechanical game, but a truly interactive experience. Yeah, like I said it is a springboard to the imagination. Appendix N were examples of world-building and suggestions for children who had picked up the game some amazing books to find. Places that the reader will want to go to, but simply couldn't until this magnificent game made it possible. Is Appendix N holy scripture, or required reading? NO! Chances are if you picked up a copy of Dungeons & Dragons than you are familiar with the genre. You've already got an idea about what this is now. While it can be fun to nitpick the list and tell folks that "This is where the Sleep Spell originated" I don't believe that that was the original point behind its inclusion. I think it is safe to say that Gygax and Arneson too, would be horrified if the primary or only thing people got out of any list of books, movies or anything else that were inspirations was to try to figure out what inspired what and when and why. They would both say stop it already and go play the game. I think it is also safe to say that the vast majority of forum and blog posting would have held little if any interest for either of them. Go read the long Gygax Q&A threads at DF or ENWorld, sometimes I swear you can hear his teeth grinding at the questions he is getting and the only reason he stayed their answers questions is for the connection to the fans, not for the bulk of the conversation. Go back and read a lot of robkuntz's posts here and elsewhere, his frustration with our conversations, his frustration with the same mind numbing questions from interviewers year after year. He seldom gets asked the questions that he hopes people will ask. They all wanted us to focus on looking forward inspired by the past, not looking backward constantly debating the past. By and large, most forum debate is just that looking back debating the past. Some of the debate goes to the level of, "Did Gygax have a ham sandwich when he thought of this or was he having bacon and eggs?" Why is the Appendix N list so short, why are there so many great books that are not on the list? Simple if Gygax had listed every good inspiring book he had ever read that list would have been terribly intimidating and have taken up several pages. |
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Post by True Black Raven on Jul 28, 2018 16:41:05 GMT -5
Getting rid of Appendix N isn't what we should do but actually delve into it and see if it can not only grow our understanding of the founders of our beloved hobby but may inform our own creativity. It may just inspire us to look beyond Tolkien, Howard & Vance or at least look deeper than the superficial tropes that are currently being expressed in modern Fantasy RPGs & find new deeper inspiration for our worlds and campaigns. I also think we should be creating our own versions of Appendix N that incorporate things outside the classic AD&D listing that inform our creativity. Sorry for the rambling rant I've been thinking about this since yesterday after skimming through some asinine articles & this thread; so I have a lot going through my head at the moment. Key words/phrases here are " inform our own creativity" and " inspire us to look beyond" and " look deeper than the superficial tropes" and " find new deeper inspiration for our worlds and campaigns" and last but not least " creating our own versions of Appendix N." But, it was put there. Why? Why place that into a book where space was a commodity? Gygax never said why did he? I mean it had to be important else he would have left it out. Now it has been left out, and it deepens the mystery. I think these points tell us why there is an Appendix N and why it was included. And yes, 1000 times yes, we should each have our own personal Appendix N, not that of Gygax, but our own. It was always about, here is a cool idea, we made it our own, go thou and do likewise. |
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Post by xizallian on Jul 28, 2018 17:10:55 GMT -5
You missed all the posts by the people who had hysterics about Jeffro's Appendix N book elsewhere? You didn't miss much. The main point of the current emphasis on Appendix N goes beyond its clear influence on the creators of Our Games. Appendix N is also a time capsule, a documentation of a literary canon that Jeffro clearly demonstrates was intentionally memory holed. The most controversial part of Jeffro's ongoing work is his calling out that memory holing, and naming (big) names. Arguments over the influence of Appendix N on the games is a smokescreen to draw attention away from the other, more serious contentions Jeffro makes. I think you have something there. That makes a lot of sense. |
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Post by xizallian on Jul 28, 2018 17:13:19 GMT -5
Getting rid of Appendix N isn't what we should do but actually delve into it and see if it can not only grow our understanding of the founders of our beloved hobby but may inform our own creativity. It may just inspire us to look beyond Tolkien, Howard & Vance or at least look deeper than the superficial tropes that are currently being expressed in modern Fantasy RPGs & find new deeper inspiration for our worlds and campaigns. I also think we should be creating our own versions of Appendix N that incorporate things outside the classic AD&D listing that inform our creativity. Sorry for the rambling rant I've been thinking about this since yesterday after skimming through some asinine articles & this thread; so I have a lot going through my head at the moment. Key words/phrases here are " inform our own creativity" and " inspire us to look beyond" and " look deeper than the superficial tropes" and " find new deeper inspiration for our worlds and campaigns" and last but not least " creating our own versions of Appendix N." But, it was put there. Why? Why place that into a book where space was a commodity? Gygax never said why did he? I mean it had to be important else he would have left it out. Now it has been left out, and it deepens the mystery. I think these points tell us why there is an Appendix N and why it was included. And yes, 1000 times yes, we should each have our own personal Appendix N, not that of Gygax, but our own. It was always about, here is a cool idea, we made it our own, go thou and do likewise. You guys get it I believe. |
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Post by ripx187 on Jul 28, 2018 17:27:53 GMT -5
I got ya 2 exalts True Black Raven! The masters. They were very lucky to had been there and experienced all of this stuff, and now must constantly deal with those of us who are rediscovering the old game. I don't fault robkuntz or @gronanofsimmerya for getting frustrated with us. I wish that I could ask those questions that they want to be asked. They lead me to the old game, that is a service that I can never hope to repay them for! This game which hides within the books. This game is so much more than what it became! I entered the field back when the idea was owned by a corporate entity. I was fed lies which I believed to be truths. GM's like me all seem to follow the same path. We start out as consumers, buying everything we can get our hands on, then we suddenly say NO MORE! Maybe we go look at other products, maybe we just decide to work with what we already have accumulated. Eventually, this leads to rejection; not by others, but our rejection of what we have. Our questioning our version of this product and digging deep into the system. Our rejection of what we are told the game is about and how to do it. We reject these books and begin thinking about actually starting from scratch, or as far back as we can go and building it how WE want it. We stop being consumers and become hobbyists again. Yes, we still compare things, we don't reject the idea of the game, instead, we discover the game for the first time. I am here now, and I am filtering information and unlearning. The game was there the whole time, but it takes time to remove what isn't necessary from what is. We find ourselves falling into pitfalls that others believed were shored up, but maybe these pitfalls really take us to where we want to go? OD&D gets me closer to this game, but finding it is a very personal journey. I think that it is comforting to know that I am not doing this on my own. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2018 17:33:36 GMT -5
On Page 12 of the 5E Players Handbook is Appendix E; Inspiration.
• Ahmed, Saladin. Throne of the Crescent Moon.
• Alexander, L1oyd.The Book of Three and The rest of the Chronicles af Prydain series.
• Anderson, Paul. The Broken Sword, The High Crusade, and Three Hearts and Three Lions.
• Anthony, Piers. Split Infinity and the rest of the Apprentice Adept series.
• Augusta, Lady Gregory. Gods and Fighting Men.
• Bear, Elizabeth. Range of Ghosts and the rest of the Eternal Sky trilogy.
• Bellairs, John. The Face in the Frost.
• Brackett, Leigh. The Best of Leigh Brackett, The Long Tomorrow, and The Sword of Rhiannon.
• Brooks, Terry. The Sword of Shannara and the rest of the Shannara noveis.
• Brown, Fredric. HaJl of Mirrors and What Mad Universe.
• Bulfinch, Thomas. Bulfinch's Mythology.
• Burroughs, Edgar Rice. At the Earth's Core and the rest of the Pellucidar series, Pirates of Venus and the rest of The Venus series, and A Princess of Mars and the rest of the Mars series.
• Carter, Lin. Warrior of Worlds End and the rest of the World's End series.
• Cook, Glen. The Black Company and the rest of the Black Company series.
• de Camp, L. Sprague. The Fallible Fiend and Lest Darkness Fall.
• de Camp, L. Sprague & Fletcher Pratt. The Compleat Enchanter and the rest of the Harold Shea series, and Carnelian Cube.
• Derleth, August and H.P. Lovecraft. Watchers out of Time.
• Dunsany, Lord. The Book of Wonder, The Essential Lord Dunsany Collection, The Gods of Pegana, The King of Elfland's Daughter, Lord Dunsany Compendium, and The Sword of Welleran and Other Tales.
• Farmer, Philipjose. Maker of Universes and The rest of the World of Tiers series.
• Fax, Gardner. Kothar and the Conjurer's Curse and the rest of the Kolhar series, and Kyrik and the Lost Queen and the rest of the Kyrik series.
• Froud, Brian & Alan Lee. Faeries.
• Hickman, Tracy & Margarel Weis. Dragons of Autumn Twilight and the rest of the Chronicles Trilogy.
• Hodgson, William Hope. The Night Land.
• Howard, Robert E. The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian and the rest of the Conan series.
• Jemisin, N.K. The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms and the rest of the lnheritance series, The Killing Moon, and The Shadowed Sun.
• Jordan, Robert. The Eye of the World and the rest of the Wheel of Time series.
• Kay, Guy Gavriel. Tigana.
• King, Stephen. The Eyes of the Dragon.
• Lanier, Sterling. Hiero's Journey and The Unforsaken Hiero.
• LeGuin, Ursula. A Wizard of Earthsea and the rest of the Earthsea series.
• Leiber, Fritz. Swords and Deviltry and the rest of the Fafhrd & Gray Mouser series.
• Lovecraft, H.P. The Complete Works.
• Lynch, Scott. The Lies of Locke Lamora and the rest of the Gentlemen Bastard series.
• Martin, George RR. A Game of Thrones and the rest of the Song of Ice and Fire series.
• McKillip. Patricia. The Forgotten Beasts of Eld.
• Merritt, A. Creep, Shadow, Creep; Dwellers in the Mirage; and The Moon Pool.
• Miéville, China. Perdido Street Station and the other Bas-Lag novels.
• Moorcock, Michael. Elric of Melniboné and the rest of the Elric series, and The jewel in the Skull and the rest of the Hawkmoon series.
• Norton, Andre. Quag Keep and Witch World.
• Offutt, Andrew J., ed. Swords against Darkness III.
• Peake, Mervyn. Titos Groan and the rest of the Gormenghast series.
• Pratchelt, Terry. The Colour of Magic and the rest of the Discworld series.
• Pratt, Fletcher. Blue Star.
• Rothfuss, Patrick. The Name of the Wind and the rest of the Kingkiller series.
• Saberhagen, Fred. The Broken Lands and Changeling Earth.
• Salvatore, RA. The Crystal Shard and the rest of The Legend of Drizzt.
• Sanderson, Brandon. Mistborn and the rest of the Mislborn trilogy.
• Smith, Clark Ashton. The Return of the Sorcerer.
• St. Clair, Margaret. Change the Sky and Other Stories, The Shadow People, and Sign of the Labrys.
• Tolkien, J.R.R The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings. and The Silmarillion.
• Tolstoy, Nikolai. The Coming of the King.
• Vance, Jack. The Dying Earth and The Eyes of the Overworld.
• Weinbaum, Stanley. Valley of Dreams and The Worlds of Ir.
• Wellman, Manly Wade. The Golgotha Dancers.
• Williamson, Jack. The Cosmic Express and The Pygmy Planet.
• Wolfe, Gene. The Shadow of the Torturer and the rest of The Book of the New Sun.
• Zelazny, Roger. Jack of Shadows and Nine Princes in Amber and the rest of the Amber series.
I don't know if this is relevant to the discussion, but with mention of D&D being alive, I do think this list above, taken from the text, proves that it is VERY MUCH ALIVE AND BREATHING with OLD SCHOOLINESS
(I reserve the right to trademark OLD SCHOOLINESS just because that's F***ing Awesome)
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Post by xizallian on Jul 28, 2018 18:02:57 GMT -5
On Page 12 of the 5E Players Handbook is Appendix E; Inspiration.
I don't know if this is relevant to the discussion, but with mention of D&D being alive, I do think this list above, taken from the text, proves that it is VERY MUCH ALIVE AND BREATHING with OLD SCHOOLINESS
(I reserve the right to trademark OLD SCHOOLINESS just because that's F***ing Awesome)
There are quite a few on that list that I am unfamiliar with, but I don't think I ever heard anyone accuse Salvatore, RA, Hickman, Tracy & Margarel Weisor Brooks, Terry of being old school before.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2018 18:05:47 GMT -5
2E was released over 20 years ago ... that makes her an antique in my bluebook.
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Jul 28, 2018 18:08:10 GMT -5
I got ya 2 exalts True Black Raven ! The masters. They were very lucky to had been there and experienced all of this stuff, and now must constantly deal with those of us who are rediscovering the old game. I don't fault robkuntz or @gronanofsimmerya for getting frustrated with us. I wish that I could ask those questions that they want to be asked. They lead me to the old game, that is a service that I can never hope to repay them for! This game which hides within the books. This game is so much more than what it became! I entered the field back when the idea was owned by a corporate entity. I was fed lies which I believed to be truths. GM's like me all seem to follow the same path. We start out as consumers, buying everything we can get our hands on, then we suddenly say NO MORE! Maybe we go look at other products, maybe we just decide to work with what we already have accumulated. Eventually, this leads to rejection; not by others, but our rejection of what we have. Our questioning our version of this product and digging deep into the system. Our rejection of what we are told the game is about and how to do it. We reject these books and begin thinking about actually starting from scratch, or as far back as we can go and building it how WE want it. We stop being consumers and become hobbyists again. Yes, we still compare things, we don't reject the idea of the game, instead, we discover the game for the first time. I am here now, and I am filtering information and unlearning. The game was there the whole time, but it takes time to remove what isn't necessary from what is. We find ourselves falling into pitfalls that others believed were shored up, but maybe these pitfalls really take us to where we want to go? OD&D gets me closer to this game, but finding it is a very personal journey. I think that it is comforting to know that I am not doing this on my own. I exalt you - this post sums up my experience to a "T". I bought so much unnecessary product over the years thinking I needed it & got immensely frustrated by it all. Why did I need a rule for everything instead of adjudicating things fairly based on the given needs of the current situation and campaign setting I was using. I lost a group because I couldn't deal with it anymore, I wasn't going to run rules heavy games or cater to players unwilling to look beyond mechanical "options" in order to have fun. Coming here has helped open my eyes to what could be if we just went back to basics & built upon the foundation laid out by OD&D. All you have to do is look at what Hargrave did with Arduin & Sechi did with Talislanta and say to yourself, "I can do that too". My D&D need not look like Gary's Greyhawk, Arneson's Blackmoor, Greenwood's Forgotten Realms or any other published setting. I can take inspiration from Bode, Ploog, Russ Nicholson, Trampier, Battle chasers, Bouroughs, Science fiction, anime/manga & HP Lovecraft and create something outside the generic Tolkien-Vance pastiches out there now that speaks to me as a creative individual. |
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Post by ripx187 on Jul 28, 2018 19:41:49 GMT -5
That is some list, JMiskimen. I refused to buy in to 3e, I had been heavily invested in the 2e system. I quit playing for a decade or two and took up drinking as a hobby. When I came back, 4th was king and it was a thing that was so far beyond me. 5e was supposed to fix the mess, but the products that I buy now are primarily office supplies; speaking of, BACK TO SCHOOL SALES are in full swing! YAY!!!!!!! |
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Jul 28, 2018 23:12:23 GMT -5
"speaking of, BACK TO SCHOOL SALES are in full swing! YAY!!!!!!!" I've begun taking advantage of them myself - that & Dollar Stores are a great resource as well. |
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Post by El Borak on Jul 29, 2018 16:04:42 GMT -5
Informative thread guys. A lot useful ideas here.
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Post by Q Man on Jul 29, 2018 20:50:22 GMT -5
What is Appendix N? Is it a blueprint? I don't think so. I came into this hobby in the 90's. I had already enjoyed reading the Conan series, I studied folklore, myth, legend, metaphysics. I had enjoyed great fantasy films and had already enjoyed the fandom associated with the Fantasy genre. The commercial version of AD&D 2nd Edition was what was available at the time and I was a total noob, picking up products and giddy about it! I had no idea what an Appendix N was. Even once I began refereeing my own games I had never heard of it. Not a blueprint for sure, Appendix N is a springboard. It is a statement of "I found inspiration here and you can too." I don't think it is less than that, although it could be more. There is a collection of 2e books that are worth bringing up at this point. The series was called "The Complete Handbooks". The series today is seen as weird and stupid, but at the time of their printing, this stuff was amazing! If we take the first book of the series as an example: "The Complete Fighter's Handbook", it included new rules for the class, explained existing rules more thoroughly, suggested ways to tweak the classes, and all kinds of stuff! But there was this strange chapter called "Role-playing", most of the core complete class books had them, and while the bulk of the information was later added to the core rules system making these books out of date in 2e's own lifetime, this Role-playing section was never repeated, and it took up a good chunk of the book. I've never looked at these, but reading this I think maybe I should. What it did was that it told players how to play the game. As a noob, I understood the idea of fighting monsters and looking for treasure, but this idea of Role-playing, and how it can affect the game in a positive and rewarding way was, as stupid as it sounds, foreign to me. Once I read this chapter, things began to click. This is a game which you learn by playing it. Most Dungeon Masters of the time were really just players who got stuck DMing, they hosted games that were very mechanical in nature, but once I read this strange chapter on Role-playing, I became a nightmare for them. I also got frustrated by them because they weren't playing this cool game. All encounters don't have to result in combat. Well, in mechanical games they do, but I think that you know where I'm heading with this. Yes, you definitely learn by playing and if these books were telling you there are options other than combat, then they are worth reading. What is Appendix N? The prefered way to learn the game is to play, but what if you don't know anybody? You are on your own. Appendix N told new users what the game was about. It told you that these systems are designed to allow users to enter these fictional places. It told you that we should treat each session as if it was a short story, or if we felt bold enough a complete romantic saga. It told you to lift ideas from your favourite sources and add them to your own game. Appendix N told us that this is not meant to be a mechanical game, but a truly interactive experience. Yeah, like I said it is a springboard to the imagination. Appendix N were examples of world-building and suggestions for children who had picked up the game some amazing books to find. Places that the reader will want to go to, but simply couldn't until this magnificent game made it possible. Is Appendix N holy scripture, or required reading? NO! Chances are if you picked up a copy of Dungeons & Dragons than you are familiar with the genre. You've already got an idea about what this is now. While it can be fun to nitpick the list and tell folks that "This is where the Sleep Spell originated" I don't believe that that was the original point behind its inclusion. I think it is safe to say that Gygax and Arneson too, would be horrified if the primary or only thing people got out of any list of books, movies or anything else that were inspirations was to try to figure out what inspired what and when and why. They would both say stop it already and go play the game. I think it is also safe to say that the vast majority of forum and blog posting would have held little if any interest for either of them. Go read the long Gygax Q&A threads at DF or ENWorld, sometimes I swear you can hear his teeth grinding at the questions he is getting and the only reason he stayed their answers questions is for the connection to the fans, not for the bulk of the conversation. Go back and read a lot of robkuntz 's posts here and elsewhere, his frustration with our conversations, his frustration with the same mind numbing questions from interviewers year after year. He seldom gets asked the questions that he hopes people will ask. They all wanted us to focus on looking forward inspired by the past, not looking backward constantly debating the past. By and large, most forum debate is just that looking back debating the past. Some of the debate goes to the level of, "Did Gygax have a ham sandwich when he thought of this or was he having bacon and eggs?" Why is the Appendix N list so short, why are there so many great books that are not on the list? Simple if Gygax had listed every good inspiring book he had ever read that list would have been terribly intimidating and have taken up several pages. This, very much this! |
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Post by randyb on Jul 29, 2018 21:40:52 GMT -5
Coming here has helped open my eyes to what could be if we just went back to basics & built upon the foundation laid out by OD&D. All you have to do is look at what Hargrave did with Arduin & Sechi did with Talislanta and say to yourself, "I can do that too". My D&D need not look like Gary's Greyhawk, Arneson's Blackmoor, Greenwood's Forgotten Realms or any other published setting. I can take inspiration from Bode, Ploog, Russ Nicholson, Trampier, Battle chasers, Bouroughs, Science fiction, anime/manga & HP Lovecraft and create something outside the generic Tolkien-Vance pastiches out there now that speaks to me as a creative individual. Same with me. I am formulating a radical (for me!) idea - that a workable skirmish combat system is sufficient for a role-playing game. No other mechanics are necessary; some may be useful. I'm probably several steps behind the more profound thinkers hereabouts, though. |
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