Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2018 18:34:03 GMT -5
(I don't know why I've suddenly become all 'trendy-*****-popular' on this forum all of a sudden, and I'd like somebody to be polite enough to explain why they want to make a big deal out of anything I happen to say in my musings. I have the perception - and I'd like to be wrong - that the quarter of a million views I've brought to RPG Pundit's forum are what's in play, here. I'm just an old cynic, I guess.) It's really too bad. I had a great day yesterday doing a ten-hour open table game at the FLGS, and coming home to this has pretty much spoiled the pleasant feeling I had coming out of the game - and the Shieldmaidens' game two weeks ago, and the 5e campaign's marathon last Sunday - to the point where I'm wondering if I can get a refund from the FLGS for the $75 worth of figures I bought for my campaign yesterday. Of it I should go ahead and pay for the airline tickets for the speaking engagement I'm supposed to do for a library for their pop-culture symposium. " Sheesh," as you say. What's astonished me is how gamers seem to have this deep-seated compulsion to suck the fun out of gaming, so that they can get some air time on a forum by sparking some controversy. Shrug. Not my forum, not my hobby, and not my problem. Well, I'm very sorry it's spoiled your pleasant feeling, Montressor. I think it's simple enthusiasm, myself, I really do. I do confess that forum citizens in general have a tendency to "over analyze" everything, but I don't think there was any malice here, just a desire to talk about something newly discovered. We've all played the old game "telephone." The more iterations a statement goes through, the more distorted it gets. And having spent a LOT of time with Rob, I know how hard he has worked, is working, and will work to keep the FACTS in play. And let me tell you, there is NOTHING like somebody telling you that you're wrong about something you personally participated in. Large portions of the "RPG 'history' Brigade" seem to want to do anything but actually talk to the surviving people who were there. Yes, a lot of deliberate misquoting and out of context quoting does happen, but I don't think that's the case here. Now I'll distract everybody by talking about how on another forum I just danced on somebody's head for a series of posts involving long complicated speculations about the reasons for CHAINMAIL's "baggage" rules, in terms of incentives and game rewards and suchlike -- anything, that is, besides emulating the documented behavior of medieval armies. Gah. |
|
|
|
Post by robkuntz on Jun 17, 2018 18:59:22 GMT -5
To me it is not that big of deal at this point. But in each and every case that I see this "opportunity" I seize upon it, so I was not singling out Jeff. I've reminded Michael of a thing or two as well, just as he has reminded me that he doesn't like being called "Mike".  I've defended Arneson and clarified stuff there, participated in a 2 month long interview by phone for a book, 7 sit down interviews for documentaries, etc. etc. My mind is pretty keen on being syphoned over the years. Strangely, with all of these recent books, not a peep for my input even though they mention me many times by name and reference information I have prime knowledge about. Zilch. And no wonder once I get wind of their content. If there was ever a time, IMO, about preserving the integrity and information from those days and places, it is now. So please excuse my enthusiasm, but I am still trying to clean up all of the lies and misinformation, some still lingering here or there about myself. Read another such piece just the other day. They are as many as grains of sand. Cheers! Stick around Jeff, don't mind my POV, just a bit frenetic over such topics because I see many unscholarly things passing as scholarship these days. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2018 19:03:06 GMT -5
Many unscholarly things indeed.
I have lost count of the number of times, both online and in person, when people start blurbling about "how things worked in the Old Days" and I reply "Dave Wesley, Bob Meyer, Greg Swenson, Jim Ward, Rob Kuntz, and others from back then are still around and active online. Go ASK them."
The silence, she is deafening.
|
|
|
|
Post by robkuntz on Jun 17, 2018 19:08:59 GMT -5
Many unscholarly things indeed. I have lost count of the number of times, both online and in person, when people start blurbling about "how things worked in the Old Days" and I reply "Dave Wesley, Bob Meyer, Greg Swenson, Jim Ward, Rob Kuntz, and others from back then are still around and active online. Go ASK them." The silence, she is deafening. That was happening with Arneson when he was still alive, people talking about Arneson and wondering. Jeesh. Go communicate with the man (one was a former/famous blogger)! But nope. They'd rather contrive their own histories. It's very strange and sometimes frightening; and I swear, people at conventions have talked right in front of me (like in the 2nd person) as if I'm not there, and the topic: Me. |
|
|
|
Post by Admin Pete on Jun 17, 2018 19:16:31 GMT -5
(I don't know why I've suddenly become all 'trendy-*****-popular' on this forum all of a sudden, and I'd like somebody to be polite enough to explain why they want to make a big deal out of anything I happen to say in my musings. I have the perception - and I'd like to be wrong - that the quarter of a million views I've brought to RPG Pundit's forum are what's in play, here. I'm just an old cynic, I guess.) I do not know either; however, I try to support anyone who has first hand knowledge when the show up here, so if posters are excited (maybe a little too excited) about someone being here you, Rob, Michael or someone else I just try to support it. As for page views I track things because I love numbers, but the only money to be made from this forum is by Proboards because all the ads are theirs for their benefit. Aside from the personal pleasure that people are benefiting from the forum the page views really mean nothing. On the other forum, page views translate to dollars in the forum owners pocket, their are no dollars to my pocket regardless of how many page views I do nor do not get. It's really too bad. I had a great day yesterday doing a ten-hour open table game at the FLGS, and coming home to this has pretty much spoiled the pleasant feeling I had coming out of the game - and the Shieldmaidens' game two weeks ago, and the 5e campaign's marathon last Sunday - to the point where I'm wondering if I can get a refund from the FLGS for the $75 worth of figures I bought for my campaign yesterday. Of it I should go ahead and pay for the airline tickets for the speaking engagement I'm supposed to do for a library for their pop-culture symposium. " Sheesh," as you say. What's astonished me is how gamers seem to have this deep-seated compulsion to suck the fun out of gaming, so that they can get some air time on a forum by sparking some controversy. I am very sorry if anything posted here caused you any distress and I do not think that messing with or lessening your fun is something that anyone here wanted or intended. Leaving aside for the moment that the OP did not ask you if he could quote you, I completely fail to see what is out of context about the OP's post. Everything that both you, Rob, and Michael have written since the first post did not change my understanding of the first post. The thing that the comments by all of you did do was open my eyes to how people could deliberately misunderstand and misuse those statements, but none of that would ever have occurred to me, but at this point I will let Q Man speak for himself. |
|
|
|
Post by Admin Pete on Jun 17, 2018 19:31:52 GMT -5
So do minis tend to close the game down for most people? Well yes, because as I asserted up-thread that (the use of) miniatures are not old school or new school, t hey are a mode (more specific to our own contextual purpose here, a PLAY mode). And the mode ALWAYS expands or contracts the system output in ways related to its initial parameters and ongoing execution. One way of breaking this down is to examine (right column/left column) how these outputs are equal, unequal, emended, changed or remain the same in relation to each other. Just like I did with the following (Copyright 2013-2018, Robert Kuntz, A New Ethos in Game Design; and the handout at a Garycon seminar I gave on Open Form; see hereafter appended). Just to say that "it slows down play" is to generalize one of the symptoms (or, contractions of an otherwise purely conceptual system), thus the right/left column comparison), though this one is easily isolated. The real reason Gary and I never used them is that it gave away too much information, the latter which we saw as paramount for summoning and sustaining a fantastic immersion in the conceptual environ. Thus information was TIGHTLY controlled for that purpose. But this is not the only reason, I could state more and I do so in NEIGD.  OOps. I cannot post columnar text here, nor an image. So PD might want to receive it, make it into an image file and post it for me. E-mailing PD now. I will add it to this post hopefully within the next half an hour or so. Massaging the file right now so I can link and post. Took a bit longer than expected, but now added to Robs posts as quoted above. |
|
|
|
Post by Q Man on Jun 17, 2018 22:23:10 GMT -5
And, if I offer a very personal opinion, I am very sorry that the OP chose to repost my comments on my blog without asking me beforehand, or asking what the context of those comments were. As you say, Rob, isolated snippets do get quoted out of context and then get misinterpreted and nit-picked to death by people on the Internet. All of which. I am forced to admit, is why I tend to shun gamers and gaming these days. I am sorry that I did not ask permission, it never occurred to me that would be needed, I could have made the entire post without the quote and just the link, but I am not sure how that would have changed anything. I am also sorry if you feel that I took your quote out of context as I was certain then and now that I fully understood the context. To more fully explain here is what I thought the context was and isAgain if I got it wrong I do apologize. (I don't know why I've suddenly become all 'trendy-*****-popular' on this forum all of a sudden, and I'd like somebody to be polite enough to explain why they want to make a big deal out of anything I happen to say in my musings. I have the perception - and I'd like to be wrong - that the quarter of a million views I've brought to RPG Pundit's forum are what's in play, here. I'm just an old cynic, I guess.) I think it started when this post was posted ruinsofmurkhill.proboards.com/post/25881 and then people agreed for three pages that they loved your blog. I loved your blog, this thread was because I loved your blog and agreed with what you were saying. Before the last few days I didn't know you had a Q&A at the RPG Pundit's forum nor had I been there before. It's really too bad. I had a great day yesterday doing a ten-hour open table game at the FLGS, and coming home to this has pretty much spoiled the pleasant feeling I had coming out of the game - and the Shieldmaidens' game two weeks ago, and the 5e campaign's marathon last Sunday - to the point where I'm wondering if I can get a refund from the FLGS for the $75 worth of figures I bought for my campaign yesterday. Of it I should go ahead and pay for the airline tickets for the speaking engagement I'm supposed to do for a library for their pop-culture symposium. " Sheesh," as you say. What's astonished me is how gamers seem to have this deep-seated compulsion to suck the fun out of gaming, so that they can get some air time on a forum by sparking some controversy. I would not have posted a single word if I had thought this would be the result. I am deeply sorry if I sucked any iota of fun out out your life, it was not my intention. I'll shut up now. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2018 23:14:21 GMT -5
Right; understood! Let me fill you in on some of the backstory.
Ever since I got on the Internet and started talking about what we used to do in gaming back then, I've been getting kicked in the head for saying things that do not agree with what some folks want to hear. I get quoted a lot by folks who want to pick fights on forums, which is why I stopped looking in and posting on them. I report what I saw and heard, and often have the documentation to back myself up - I was always 'the archivist' in the group, which is what I promised Phil I'd be for his Tekumel. I also get trashed on in person for the same reason, like for using miniatures in RPGs (which is, I think, a reaction to how D&D 4e was marketed) and told that I'm not wanted in the hobby 'cause I play BADWRONGFUN. And for my choices of world-settings, and the miniatures I use for them. (Oh, and I also persecute gays and oppress women while I'm at it.)
I do not mind people quoting me or linking to my work, but I do appreciate being told about it so that I can offer advice or answer questions. I do not like being 'blind-sided', as I quite often find about this kind of thing when the angry e-mails and phone calls start coming in. If people like the blog, that's great; let me know by telling me, and we can have a really good conversation about what you'd like to say in your own forums - I'm always happy to cross-reference to people like Rob, who can offer insights as well - I did this for the "Secrets of Blackmoor" documentary, for example.
Morale is a fragile thing. I like to have fun with my friends - gaming, for me, was sitting around a table with them and laughing our fool heads off. These days, gaming seems to be SERIOUS BUSINESS, as Gronan likes to say, and there's not a lot of laughter left. I've had a lot of laughter over the past month, between the Shieldmaidens, the 5e group, and yesterday's event; it's what been keeping me in the hobby and my collections and archives out of the dumpster. I have gotten so much hassle for what I do, that's it's gotten harder and harder to keep doing it.
I've failed the morale check; I had severe misgivings about posting on this forum again, and I should have listened to my gut feelings and stayed away and left you all in peace. my apologies to you and everyone else or that - my mistake.
Do feel free to post, do feel free to discuss; that's what this forum is here for. I'm an archivist; all I do is collect the date, and it's up to folks like you to evaluate it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Jun 18, 2018 1:16:18 GMT -5
@chirinebakal I had hoped you'd stick with it but you do what you need to do. I am pretty sure Q Man did NOT mean any disrespect, as clearly his post above said he was sorry & didn't intend it.
|
|
|
|
Post by robkuntz on Jun 18, 2018 3:58:26 GMT -5
Right; understood! Let me fill you in on some of the backstory. Ever since I got on the Internet and started talking about what we used to do in gaming back then, I've been getting kicked in the head for saying things that do not agree with what some folks w Hey Jeff, The bashing, you, of Arneson and myself, continues. For publishing DATG I have been called an "Overeducated fool" sand more "kind" words. They will be bashing folks who appeared in the SoB doc, you, me, Gronan, etc. The lies will continue that I am fighting, sometimes, I feel, alone. I hear no word from others in Minnesota, even to defend Arneson, these days. I guess everyone will bet on the Documentary which is late in manifesting. I look at it like this: It was fun as well for me before TSR mixed in the biz and Gary made it less than fun, Arneson discovered that. Both were my friends-- Dave and I knew each other and had gamed with each other since 1969, just one year after I met Gary. But it changed. The fun from the Minnesota and LG guys had had was turned into business by merging the LGTSA and the principals from the MMSA: that was called TSR. Those days are not being described and defended just through fun anymore. There's enough to defend with the very prevalent anti-Arneson POV out there, a pro-Barker (which doesn't need defending but, indeed, promoting as no one would dare touch it in a negative way so they remain silent on it) and my own (most I am sure wish that I would just die and shut up, but in between I talk and like cockroaches they run to the shadows or scream from behind trees far and away). Those days in, their best were fun--for I was in both Arneson's and Phil's houses; and Dave Sutherland was a good friend of mine, we hit it off in MN and that stayed so in LG. I could tell you some stories there: one that would rankle; another that would raise eyebrows. One against DCSIII that I witnessed and one as witnessed by him and told to me, because it was about me... Like I said, we were friends. I guess it changed huh? Well, yeah. When you have Dave Arneson calling me (i had quit TSR; then he was forced out some weeks later); when you have him calling me to ask me to keep tabs on what TSR is doing, and which I told him I couldn't do as a friend to both him and Gary--yeah, it's changed. When you have Dave Sutherland walking out of meetings on high w/ you know who, about Barker, and looking grave and concerned, yeah, things have changed. But people want to drive the voices from those days away, Jeff. Sure, maybe I went a bit over the top here about the minis; as I noted up-thread, the attacks have been unceasing, the misinformation relentless. I am currently in the middle of what you vacated as not being fun anymore; and guess what? I've doubled down because of those days. For distancing myself from the OSR by saying I did not and would not belong to a group by default, I was attacked as well. Robert J. is a little bit on the look-out these days holding up so many years of history and having people waiting in the wings to pounce. I understand when you say that's not fun and why you wanted to stay away from gamers in general because of that. I say the same to my wife, that people have lost it, etc. these days--it's now acceptable for one to come staggering drunk and 45 minutes late to a convention game and shrug it off, even (it happened, and yet another "famous blogger")... My hope is that you tell your tales of battles and fun, your tales, and just ignore those who PURPOSELY would squelch the truth. All told, happy journeys whichever way the ship tacks. |
|
|
|
Post by robertsconley on Jun 18, 2018 8:50:00 GMT -5
Which "OSR" is everybody complaining about? To say that the OSR is X or believe Y is a weak proposition. The widespread use of open content and the ease of distribution due to digital technology means anybody who has the interest can get material to support a classic edition of D&D out there.
The use of term OSR is not precise. it is a shorthand people use to describe the group of hobbyist who play, promote, and publish for a classic edition of D&D. Of course you can disclaim you are not part of the OSR and still play, promote, or publish for classic editions of D&D. But folks want a shorter way of describing hobby around playing, promoting, or publishing classic editions of D&D whether others like being labeled or not. And the complaints are not new, they been around since the birth of the term OSR. Yet it persists.
As for the miniatures issue, sure there is a strong bias against miniature among SOME in the group of hobbyist currently playing, promoting, and publishing for classic D&D. If people gave specifics there a chance I could tell you why that individual is against miniatures.
As a general rule, the reason the hobby around playing, promoting, and publishing for classic editions of D&D grew in the late 2000s was in part a reaction against the D&D 3.5 and later D&D 4th edition. Both featured detailed tactical combat using miniatures. So to see strong and obnoxious opinions about the use of miniature doesn't surprise me.
That there are many obnoxious opinion is also not surprising given the near constant criticism on multiple levels many people endured during the growth of the classic D&D hobby. Criticism from 3.5 and later 4th edition hobbyists wondering why people are playing "broken" games. Criticism from the industry to trying to revive publication of classic D&D material by using the open content of the d20 SRD. There many groups within the classic D&D hobby that are widely consider argumentative, testy, and opinionated including this one.
As for the distortion of history, to me it doesn't seem any different than other historical events when a lot of people starting commenting. What important, is that more people are writing and doing the research than ever before, including folks here. Twenty years ago virtually 90% of the material we now have was not commonly known or available.
Understand none of the groups I mentioned above, including this one, speaks for the hobby. Nobody speaks for the hobby that surrounds the various classic D&D editions. That this is a result of much of the content being open to anybody to use, and the low barriers for distribution created by digital technology.
When somebody criticizes something I am doing or is negative about it, I shrug it off. The above allow me to do what I want to do in the way I want too. So far enough people has downloaded, said positive things, or bought it to let me know it been useful and enjoyable for others. The hobby is so vast in comparison to my interests, that I am not surprised when I run into contrary or obnoxious views.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2018 10:54:15 GMT -5
@chirinebakal I had hoped you'd stick with it but you do what you need to do. I am pretty sure Q Man did NOT mean any disrespect, as clearly his post above said he was sorry & didn't intend it. I understand that, and thought that he was being very gracious; he simply didn't know. I float around at a very different level in the hobby and industry then most people do, and so look at things through a different lens then most. It's a matter of time and energy resource allocation. If I'm out on the Internet in forums, I'm not writing my book. I'm at 128,000 words, heading to 300,000, and that does take time. Running the kind of games that I like recharges my batteries, and gets me back to the keyboard and writing. Likewise, it also gets me back to the workbench; there's a lot of synergy between my writing and my painting. I also work full time, and look after a disabled spouse; I have a very full schedule, and I have to be careful of my time. The basic question is: If I'm not having fun, why am I here? As Gronan says, "No gaming is better then bad gaming." Please do continue to have lots and lots of discussions! That;s where the Internet really shines. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2018 10:59:45 GMT -5
My hope is that you tell your tales of battles and fun, your tales, and just ignore those who PURPOSELY would squelch the truth. All told, happy journeys whichever way the ship tacks. All good points, and understood. I will continue to write, and I'm still wiring the basement for the on-line games that I want to run - full duplex teleconference, as we used t call it in the business, is a wonderful thing - so I will still be out there running games and telling stories. I'll keep the blog up and running - God knows I pay the lawyers enough to to do - and I'll be out and about on occasion. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2018 11:11:09 GMT -5
Which "OSR" is everybody complaining about? To say that the OSR is X or believe Y is a weak proposition. The widespread use of open content and the ease of distribution due to digital technology means anybody who has the interest can get material to support a classic edition of D&D out there. A very good post, and one which finally answers a lot of the questions that I've had about 'the OSR' for years. I think you've done a very accurate summary of the current state of play, and some of the factors that have led up to it. My interactions with 'the OSR' have had very little to do with the game products, and a lot more to do with the personalities and factions I've met. I don't mind diverse viewpoints and commentary. What I mind is a lack of civility that some people feel is their right; some of the people who bill themselves as being stalwarts of the OSR have good points, but are - in my opinion - pretty rude about it with a "my way or the highway' approach. Had a guy like this in my game on Saturday, and I just grinned and bore it as the clock was running out and I'll probably never see him again. I felt bad for the rest of the players, who were getting a mite 'restive' about his forcefully stated opinions about the game, the world setting, and my play style. I did notice that he seemed to like the birthday cake, as he did have quite a bit of it... You do nice stuff, by the way; you're also what I like to point out to people as what 'the OSR' can be. Thank you for that! |
|
|
|
Post by robertsconley on Jun 18, 2018 12:32:01 GMT -5
A very good post, and one which finally answers a lot of the questions that I've had about 'the OSR' for years. I think you've done a very accurate summary of the current state of play, and some of the factors that have led up to it. Appreciate the compliment. While I have my opinions, my overall goal to make useful material whether it stuff one can use in a campaign or commentary on the hobby. Glad it worked in this case for you. My interactions with 'the OSR' have had very little to do with the game products, and a lot more to do with the personalities and factions I've met. I hear you. personalities and factions i.e. the social scene can go either way. I will say in the defense of the current situation that while everybody does their own thing, there is a overall direction that is driven by those who produce useful material. This means to "fix" any issue within the hobby all one has to do get something out there. Naturally this won't "stop" anything . However it will diversify the hobby so that somebody else in the author's position can find something that of interest, useful, and above all fun for their campaign. When I got involved around 2008, I could name most everybody promoting, and publishing stuff for classic edition along with their products. But now ten years later with a 1000+ items on RPGNow alone, it all but impossible. What is good that any type of campaign that a classic editions can be used for it getting some kind of support and advice from somebody. Socially wise it also broadened, and also the larger hobby is more aware of the OSR. While this leads to positive social interaction in some cases, it doesn't in others as you and others noted. My solution is that I participate where I want to participate and ignore the rest. I don't mind diverse viewpoints and commentary. What I mind is a lack of civility that some people feel is their right; some of the people who bill themselves as being stalwarts of the OSR have good points, but are - in my opinion - pretty rude about it with a "my way or the highway' approach. The lack of civility is a problem of our age unfortunately. As "for my way or the highway:, it bundled up in a couple of things. The idea that the referee is final arbiter of his campaign, and the do it yourself nature of the hobby. A more than a few involved in the hobby can be stubborn SOBs including myself at times. My own take is that yes I am the final arbiter for what I do, for the purpose of sharing I recognize that nearly all of the campaign run are kitbashes. Sure folks draw material from a particular edition, but the rest is whatever the players and referee find fun and interesting. I try to organize my material in a way that people can take what they like and ignore what they don't. Had a guy like this in my game on Saturday, and I just grinned and bore it as the clock was running out and I'll probably never see him again. I felt bad for the rest of the players, who were getting a mite 'restive' about his forcefully stated opinions about the game, the world setting, and my play style. I did notice that he seemed to like the birthday cake, as he did have quite a bit of it... My first line of defense against that kind of behavior is first person roleplaying. I find players tend act better when they direct engage the NPCs and worlds as if they are there as their character. But if that doesn't work, I just give my good sportmanship lecture. The most recent instance of this was two year ago when the player wigged out when his character died. I sternly reminded him that he shouldn't think death is end of things. Sure enough the players figured out how to get the body back and was able to raise his character. You do nice stuff, by the way; you're also what I like to point out to people as what 'the OSR' can be. Thank you for that! Thanks and I enjoy reading your stuff. Looking forward to reading your book when it comes out. |
|
|
|
Post by ripx187 on Jun 18, 2018 13:34:06 GMT -5
As an outsider looking in, the window was always foggy. I mean, you have this old set of rules and you do your best to interpret and try to figure out what this all means. You look deep into them. The rules have bits and pieces from some game that you've never heard of. You go back and look at interviews: snippets taken out of time and treated like gospel. I remember thinking that there was something like 4 Gary Gygax's running around talking through the years.
I'm just an idiot blogger and I've had people do that to me. Get all upset over something that I said 5 or 6 years ago and I've got no idea until I talk to them and in their minds, we've been fighting but I have no idea what on earth we are fighting about. I can't imagine being in a position higher than my current idiot blogger status. Us outsiders also had no idea of what went on behind the scenes. When I did learn it was a shocker. Business ruins things, especially successful business. In this world where the average Joe believes that bloggers have publicists that they have to go through, you folks no doubt have it even worse!
|
|
|
|
Post by Q Man on Jun 18, 2018 14:27:58 GMT -5
As I have been assured that I am still welcome, I will indeed re-engage. Which "OSR" is everybody complaining about? To say that the OSR is X or believe Y is a weak proposition. The widespread use of open content and the ease of distribution due to digital technology means anybody who has the interest can get material to support a classic edition of D&D out there. The use of term OSR is not precise. it is a shorthand people use to describe the group of hobbyist who play, promote, and publish for a classic edition of D&D. Of course you can disclaim you are not part of the OSR and still play, promote, or publish for classic editions of D&D. But folks want a shorter way of describing hobby around playing, promoting, or publishing classic editions of D&D whether others like being labeled or not. And the complaints are not new, they been around since the birth of the term OSR. Yet it persists. Which "OSR" is a good question as there are numerous cliques in the OSR. Some good and some very bad. I started to write a very long detailed reply talking about eight of the cliques in some detail and then deleted it. Maybe it's better I just leave it at that. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2018 14:34:48 GMT -5
My experience with the "OSR" is that there is a group of self-proclaimed "OSR" acolytes. They are trying to "rediscover" the ur-game of D&D as it was, and mostly they are all wet and don't want to hear from those of us who were there.
|
|
|
|
Post by mormonyoyoman on Jun 18, 2018 14:47:05 GMT -5
My hope is that you tell your tales of battles and fun, your tales, and just ignore those who PURPOSELY would squelch the truth. All told, happy journeys whichever way the ship tacks. All good points, and understood. I will continue to write, and I'm still wiring the basement for the on-line games that I want to run - full duplex teleconference, as we used t call it in the business, is a wonderful thing - so I will still be out there running games and telling stories. I'll keep the blog up and running - God knows I pay the lawyers enough to to do - and I'll be out and about on occasion. And slightly damp Exalt to Mr Chrinebakal for this post and his previous one! Almost every day at 3 pm, I discover the projects I started are undone and my efforts have disappeared into the Black Hole that is the internet. Maybe his example will inspire me to get back to work...in 15 minutes. (Someday, I'll either google or wickedpedia to find out what "chrinebakal" means - or at least find a fake definition from those two sites of misinformation.) |
|
|
|
Post by mormonyoyoman on Jun 18, 2018 14:53:55 GMT -5
My experience with the "OSR" is that there is a group of self-proclaimed "OSR" acolytes. They are trying to "rediscover" the ur-game of D&D as it was, and mostly they are all wet and don't want to hear from those of us who were there. By its very nature, CAN there be an ur-game of D&D or any rolegame? |
|
|
|
Post by robkuntz on Jun 18, 2018 14:55:25 GMT -5
My experience with the "OSR" is that there is a group of self-proclaimed "OSR" acolytes. They are trying to "rediscover" the ur-game of D&D as it was, and mostly they are all wet and don't want to hear from those of us who were there. Pretty much. There was no UR game, of course, but after all these years that can't even conclude that. |
|
|
|
Post by robertsconley on Jun 18, 2018 15:01:37 GMT -5
I started to write a very long detailed reply talking about eight of the cliques in some detail and then deleted it. Maybe it's better I just leave it at that. It understandable, for many the most interesting subject are other people. My goal in this type of conversations is to emphasize that the tools are there for everybody to use as they see fit. The flip side is that people using them as they see fit which means material will be created that will not be to one's liking or approval. I don't like or use everything that the classic D&D hobby has produced since the mid 2000s. However I am glad the authors got the chance to do their thing. Gronan related his experience and I know of examples that fit his description. But the same hobby that has those groups also has Blood & Treasure by John M. Slater which is his hybrid between classic edition mechanics and newer editions mechanics. Has the weird horror of James Raggi standing alongside the just plain weirdness of Operation Unfathomable. Or uses classic edition mechanics in new genres like with White Star or Stars without Numbers. A hobby that includes preservationists like the crew at Knights and Knaves with OSRIC and AD&D. On RPGNow there are over 2,800 products listed by their authors under the OSR category. The diversity is staggering. www.rpgnow.com/browse.php?filters=45582_0_0_0_0All of this created by people doing this because it what they want to do with the classic editions of D&D. |
|
|
|
Post by Admin Pete on Jun 18, 2018 17:04:19 GMT -5
I think that people who are dedicated to the proposition that Arneson had zero contributions to D&D, who are dedicated to claiming D&D was created solely by Gygax, who are dedicated to smearing and impugning anyone who tries to expose the truth of Arneson's contributions and who have done everything they can to drive some of us from every platform, to ostracize, isolate and silence us and even threaten those who associate with us as something positive in the hobby is a bit much for me. Those same people attack Rob Kuntz at every turn and try to marginalize his every effort. That just scratches the surface. I can not accept that they serve any good purpose in the hobby. YMMV
|
|
|
|
Post by Admin Pete on Jun 18, 2018 17:07:45 GMT -5
On RPGNow there are over 2,800 products listed by their authors under the OSR category. The diversity is staggering. www.rpgnow.com/browse.php?filters=45582_0_0_0_0All of this created by people doing this because it what they want to do with the classic editions of D&D. And when I have free time, which has been in short supply, I like looking through that treasure hoard, looking for the gold, silver and gems hidden among the copper, brass, iron and clay. |
|
|
|
Post by Q Man on Jun 18, 2018 17:36:18 GMT -5
The flip side is that people using them as they see fit which means material will be created that will not be to one's liking or approval. See there, that is one big difference between me and a lot of self identified OSR people. If you create material I don't like I won't use it and it stops right there. Many, many OSR people if you do something they don't agree with they will follow you from place to place to make sure everyone knows you are a bad person because you did something in a way they don't approve of. One person trying to talk about their baby can't match the impact of a dozen people running around telling people that your baby is illegitimate. |
|
|
|
Post by robkuntz on Jun 18, 2018 17:50:44 GMT -5
I think that people who are dedicated to the proposition that Arneson had zero contributions to D&D, who are dedicated to claiming D&D was created solely by Gygax, who are dedicated to smearing and impugning anyone who tries to expose the truth of Arneson's contributions and who have done everything they can to drive some of us from every platform, to ostracize, isolate and silence us and even threaten those who associate with us as something positive in the hobby is a bit much for me. Those same people attack Rob Kuntz at every turn and try to marginalize his every effort. That just scratches the surface. I can not accept that they serve any good purpose in the hobby. YMMV Revisionists gonna be revisionists. I am not concerned with those that really close themselves off into an echo chamber of their own un-reasoned, ill-imagined, intent. The bloggers and forum people do not represent something different than many of the vocal fan 'zines back in the day that were rattling about here or there to get attention and were just about as useless on the main if things became too political or divisive/exclusionary. Somehow many egoists these days think that they are experts on a history, a design process, that they were not even part of? It's quite laughable, actually. Their feet of clay "arguments" (i/e/, opinions) are for their isolated fan base that is either too lazy, or too ignorant, like in any other part of society, to actually get to the bottom of what is fact or fiction. This creates fan-fellowships and the resulting frictions between them, and not unlike what occurred between TSR and AH bitd. To that end and related to some degree, there was a famous ex-OSR-blogger who seemed to know much about everything, even Arneson (and myself, and whom I had to debunk or correct now and then), though he admitted that he had never interviewed him. The reason? Because Arneson wasn't available. Arneson was always available, just like Gygax; and just like myself (and I, too, was never interviewed by him). People just want to get noticed, I guess, and it's very superficial but not noteworthy for much else. The online community, much to the chagrin of those who would claim otherwise, does not represent the majority of people in the hobby or industry; it's only a small but vocal minority. Get to a major convention, even a medium-sized one, and that's where the action is, where the other-than-keyboard-noise-makers appear, where the real games and stories come pouring forth, and where politics and superficiality hold no sway whatsoever. But that is like it has always been, from BITD to now. |
|
|
|
Post by robertsconley on Jun 18, 2018 18:28:14 GMT -5
The flip side is that people using them as they see fit which means material will be created that will not be to one's liking or approval. See there, that is one big difference between me and a lot of self identified OSR people. If you create material I don't like I won't use it and it stops right there. Many, many OSR people if you do something they don't agree with they will follow you from place to place to make sure everyone knows you are a bad person because you did something in a way they don't approve of. One person trying to talk about their baby can't match the impact of a dozen people running around telling people that your baby is illegitimate. Most everybody I know that are "involved" in the hobby around are too busy playing, creating material and/or writing. The most cases I have encountered can be chalked up to the usual internet asshats that every social site has to deal with. And remember there is no governing authority over the use of OSR. It is a term that lives and dies by general consensus. Even if the use of OSR fades away there still a hobby that surround playing, promoting, and publishing for classic editions D&D whatever it is called. And unfortunately there will still be internet asshats. |
|
|
|
Post by Q Man on Jun 18, 2018 18:52:11 GMT -5
See there, that is one big difference between me and a lot of self identified OSR people. If you create material I don't like I won't use it and it stops right there. Many, many OSR people if you do something they don't agree with they will follow you from place to place to make sure everyone knows you are a bad person because you did something in a way they don't approve of. One person trying to talk about their baby can't match the impact of a dozen people running around telling people that your baby is illegitimate. Most everybody I know that are "involved" in the hobby around are too busy playing, creating material and/or writing. The most cases I have encountered can be chalked up to the usual internet asshats that every social site has to deal with. And remember there is no governing authority over the use of OSR. It is a term that lives and dies by general consensus. Even if the use of OSR fades away there still a hobby that surround playing, promoting, and publishing for classic editions D&D whatever it is called. And unfortunately there will still be internet asshats. Shame there are not more of the "involved" people online, besides you I can only think of about 5 or 6. But the internet asshats, they are legion. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2018 19:30:04 GMT -5
All good points, and understood. I will continue to write, and I'm still wiring the basement for the on-line games that I want to run - full duplex teleconference, as we used t call it in the business, is a wonderful thing - so I will still be out there running games and telling stories. I'll keep the blog up and running - God knows I pay the lawyers enough to to do - and I'll be out and about on occasion. And slightly damp Exalt to Mr Chrinebakal for this post and his previous one! Almost every day at 3 pm, I discover the projects I started are undone and my efforts have disappeared into the Black Hole that is the internet. Maybe his example will inspire me to get back to work...in 15 minutes. (Someday, I'll either google or wickedpedia to find out what "chrinebakal" means - or at least find a fake definition from those two sites of misinformation.) Thank you for your kind words! It's actually 'chirine ba kal", the guy I've been playing in Tekumel since early 1976. You can find lots of photos of him and I on the Internet. Gronan made his steel breast-and-backplates, by the way. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2018 19:32:33 GMT -5
As I have been assured that I am still welcome, I will indeed re-engage. From Chirine, who's very tired and having browser issues: "Very glad to hear this!!!" |
|
I've defended Arneson and clarified stuff there, participated in a 2 month long interview by phone for a book, 7 sit down interviews for documentaries, etc. etc. My mind is pretty keen on being syphoned over the years. Strangely, with all of these recent books, not a peep for my input even though they mention me many times by name and reference information I have prime knowledge about. Zilch. And no wonder once I get wind of their content. If there was ever a time, IMO, about preserving the integrity and information from those days and places, it is now. So please excuse my enthusiasm, but I am still trying to clean up all of the lies and misinformation, some still lingering here or there about myself. Read another such piece just the other day. They are as many as grains of sand. Cheers! Stick around Jeff, don't mind my POV, just a bit frenetic over such topics because I see many unscholarly things passing as scholarship these days.
