In Answer to the Piper's Call

[robkuntz]

Piper Noted:

I would of entreat you to reconsider your position, Rob. Your knowledge and amazing ideas are a treasure to our community. It would be a genuine loss if your ideas never made it to your fans.

Please at least consider committing your ideas to paper for safekeeping. Even if you decide not to release them. Some of us truly want to see a return to the original style of play.


Thanks for the compliments.

But let me clarify a bit. These working ideas (and modeled prototypes) are an exercise in design thinking that leads to expanding perceptions of design and play and do not represent an original style of play but instead the continuous expansion of our original way of thinking as first prodded along such a path by Arneson.

For instance, going back to Dave Arneson’s design attitude (and I recommend folks who have DATG to reread the second essay contained in it, Dimensionality in Design, where I give it a broad treatment with some specific information related to the formation, description and throttling (stepping) of his systems architecture), one must appeal to the concepts he extolled which was to break from standards. This is the only way to create something original.

In current parlance, that would supposedly mean (to the average designer) to create a new game. That is not my trajectory with the ideas I have hinted at. They are congruous with ideas of expanding thought and their implementation by way of intersecting with Arneson’s design attitude as exampled by the initial condition state of D&D.

This would more likely side, to lesser or greater degrees, with “complexity” as referenced in Gary Gygax’s quote, ‘...create a game of simplicity or ultimate complexity”. This complexity is accomplished not by scaling or additional linear inputs, but iby reorganizing the standard model (and thus realigning the assumed tenses and applications of its information) which dimensionally alters the ancient model still in use to this day while at the same time allowing for the game’s base mechanics and structures to remain in place. IOW, I have rearranged the focus of the (math) sets to function as an appendage to the system, thus creating a sustainable and overlapping model.

Thus we have a dimensional shift which looks like the following (notation) for a premade module (EX1) when compared to my proposed remodeling (EX2):

A0.......... A1 The ellipses repeat A0 as opposing resources which are overcome in game terms until A1 is reached, which is the zero-sum modification of <WIN> (or ending of the math stream), such as in completing the objective. This is the current ancient model, EX1.

Think of the above as a flat, linear plane which I will label as “A”

EX2 proposes that “A” is only a subset of a greater dimensionality (for example, A+B+C+F) which I have modeled and works.

Now, I will not reveal any further information about how I organize EX2, for that would be giving away the game.

What I will propose is this: If the community can get 300 purchasers to pledge to buy what I am proposing (not pledge money, but just to pledge to buy it when it is produced) then I can speculate on this and write it up and invest my funds in having it printed.

1) It will be a useable adventure.
2) Moreover, it will contain a design philosophy that is explained and exampled so as to make the expanding ideas and system organization available for others to understand and implement.

The logistics regarding the pledges would have to be nailed down. A campaign would have to be launched (quite beyond my current capabilities considering my over-burdened schedule and the need to possibly add in the crafting of the adventure, etc.). So, word would have to be spread grass-roots style and maintained as TLS collected the names and e-mails of those pledging, for example.

That is the best I can offer. It’s size and price: Not to exceed 48 pages printed and 19.95 in cost. This is the upper limit estimate. Lightly illustrated, maps, some diagrams (for design illustration purposes). So what you have here is an adventure, a new model and the described design philosophy underpinning it all.

[Deleted]

Mar 17, 2018 17:12:48 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

Thanks for the compliments.

But let me clarify a bit. (snippage)

You're welcome!

May I share this to other forums and platforms? If not a cut-n-paste, at least a synopsis?

I'd like to be a cheerleader for this project. I feel the interest is there if only we can get the word out to the ones most interested.

[mormonyoyoman]

Hm. An adventure from a known and tested designer - not bad, but not Earth-shaking.

But an adventure from a known and tested designer WITH subtext-like notes demonstrating and retelling the thought and creation processes? Swoon-bait to a history junkie such as I.

Sign me up. Try to hang the funds not due after the 12th of the month in question.

[mormonyoyoman]

Mar 17, 2018 18:45:18 GMT -5 mormonyoyoman said:

Hm. An adventure from a known and tested designer - not bad, but not Earth-shaking.

But an adventure from a known and tested designer WITH subtext-like notes demonstrating and retelling the thought and creation processes? Swoon-bait to a history junkie such as I.

Sign me up. Try to hang the funds not due after the 12th of the month in question.

Have. Try to not HAVE the funds not due until after the 12th.

Dang autocorrect!

[mormonyoyoman]

Double dang! Here's how it should read:

Try to not have the funds due after the 12th of the month in question.

Grandpa Chet take nap now.

[Deleted]

Ah, yes ... in case I need to state it?

SIGN ME UP!

[robkuntz]

Mar 17, 2018 18:35:56 GMT -5 @piper said:

Mar 17, 2018 17:12:48 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

Thanks for the compliments.

But let me clarify a bit. (snippage)

You're welcome!

May I share this to other forums and platforms? If not a cut-n-paste, at least a synopsis?

I'd like to be a cheerleader for this project. I feel the interest is there if only we can get the word out to the ones most interested.

Sure, use it all.  But we need to come up with a direct and private system for culling the names and e-mail addresses of supporters so that TLS can construct a database for counting/mailing purposes.

...We can use TLS's enquiries address for now:  [e-mail]  Topic Field on e-mail: "EX2 Pledge"

The full name and e-mail address must be in the communication

[robkuntz]

Mar 17, 2018 18:49:16 GMT -5 mormonyoyoman said:

Double dang! Here's how it should read:

Try to not have the funds due after the 12th of the month in question.

Grandpa Chet take nap now.

Who needs other members here when you can talk in different modes with yourself.  

[robkuntz]

Mar 17, 2018 18:45:18 GMT -5 mormonyoyoman said:

Hm. An adventure from a known and tested designer - not bad, but not Earth-shaking.

But an adventure from a known and tested designer WITH subtext-like notes demonstrating and retelling the thought and creation processes? Swoon-bait to a history junkie such as I.

Sign me up. Try to hang the funds not due after the 12th of the month in question.

I believe that the adventure will pale next to the actual design model that it is ensconced in.  Time will tell if it comes to pass, since it will take a large step past Arneson's doorway.

[Deleted]

Mar 17, 2018 19:06:29 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

I believe that the adventure will pale next to the actual design model that it is ensconced in.  Time will tell if it comes to pass, since it will take a large step past Arneson's doorway.

Me, too. This is the kind of mentor-ship many of us have longed for.

[True Black Raven]

I will have to work something out, but yeah I am on board.

[Admin Pete]

Of course without question I am on board. Thank you to Piper for heading up the effort.

[mormonyoyoman]

Mar 17, 2018 19:02:27 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

Mar 17, 2018 18:49:16 GMT -5 mormonyoyoman said:

Double dang! Here's how it should read:

Try to not have the funds due after the 12th of the month in question.

Grandpa Chet take nap now.

Who needs other members here when you can talk in different modes with yourself.  

Used to be paranoid 'til I gave it up for multiple personalities so I'd always have company for lunch.

[Deleted]

Mar 17, 2018 23:07:48 GMT -5 mormonyoyoman said:

Mar 17, 2018 19:02:27 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

Who needs other members here when you can talk in different modes with yourself.  

Used to be paranoid 'til I gave it up for multiple personalities so I'd always have company for lunch.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you!

[mormonyoyoman]

Great. Now I'm paranoid that one of those multiple personalities is out to get another.

(Too many genres in my rolegaming?)

[robkuntz]

Not too inspiring here folks, To date only one enquiry e-mail regarding this project. Not a good sign. (I know that a few here have pledged but not sent the mail, making it maybe 5)

The bottom line gut feeling on this is exactly what I felt when Arneson's idea was first rejected by the establishment to begin with when offered to them.

People are just too constrained to their own POVs to care? (or) The hobby is so stuck in its circular mode that the true design minds are not there anymore as they were BitD in Wargaming (probably a mix of both).

Allan Grohe once told me that a design of mine (about 12 years ago) was not ready for public consumption; and i for once listened to him and ignored my own gut feeling, much to his regret (and walking back his suggestion) many years later as he witnessed the descent into repetitious modeling that was taking place.

It is not always true that you can lead a horse to water... C'est la vie!

[Deleted]

I wish I could put my disappointment into words that would properly communicate its depth without sounding maudlin.

I posted here, ODD74, and G+. I believed this was getting to a good part of the potential customer base for this product. Then, I sent an e-mail and it sounds like that's the one e-mail you received.

When I think of the wealth of knowledge hanging in the balance here, a heartbeat away from being lost forever, I can't even put into words what I'm feeling.

Well, as best I can I've forged my own way. This is what you've "preached" and what I've believed. Still, I recognize both your amazing intellect and personal involvement in the very formation of our hobby. This is what cannot be replaced even among folks such as myself who started out in the earliest days of D&D as a commercial entity.

I ask you to dole out tidbits as you've the time and inclination. I know you get paid for your work and wouldn't ask more of you than whatever tidbits you can type up in a sentence or two; we'll take what we can get.

Thanks for your time, Rob. I hope to see you again in Texas at NTRPG Con this year.

[robkuntz]

Mar 24, 2018 15:39:11 GMT -5 @piper said:

I wish I could put my disappointment into words that would properly communicate its depth without sounding maudlin.

I posted here, ODD74, and G+. I believed this was getting to a good part of the potential customer base for this product. Then, I sent an e-mail and it sounds like that's the one e-mail you received.

When I think of the wealth of knowledge hanging in the balance here, a heartbeat away from being lost forever, I can't even put into words what I'm feeling.

Well, as best I can I've forged my own way. This is what you've "preached" and what I've believed. Still, I recognize both your amazing intellect and personal involvement in the very formation of our hobby. This is what cannot be replaced even among folks such as myself who started out in the earliest days of D&D as a commercial entity.

I ask you to dole out tidbits as you've the time and inclination. I know you get paid for your work and wouldn't ask more of you than whatever tidbits you can type up in a sentence or two; we'll take what we can get.

Thanks for your time, Rob. I hope to see you again in Texas at NTRPG Con this year.

There are other ways, just not through the actual hobby that has abandoned the idea of progress and now measures design not by vertical leaps which are available to it but by horizontal shifts as arrayed on an endless but oft-repeating shelf.  Originating vertical design trajectories requires a more Arnesonan way of thinking and not a plug-n-play, "I can do that the same way" attitude that results in shifting the elements around into differently featured positions and then claiming, "Wallah!  Difference!"

When I was conducting my design workshop at Lucca Comics and Games in 2015 (composed of designers or aspiring designers eager to hear my views as I polled them about that) one particular guy who I let in at the last moment said to me afterwards, "You know I came here to learn what secrets you and other designers could share and instead came away with how to think to create my own." The point being, he sought short-cuts, received knowledge, but I had impacted his mind in such a way that he now understood how to assess and create his own design avenues which broadened his perspective into processing and understanding WHY.  He now had a beginning and an end point he could see clearly and promote exclusively from HIS design POV.

This is very much what I am suggesting with the current project, but much more in depth than what was available to those designers in  2 hours and via a dry erase board diagrams.

So, as I said, this may still occur and I am currently sourcing other avenues outside of the hobby for this.  

[Admin Pete]

This afternoon before taking my wife out to dinner for our anniversary yesterday, it occurred to me that I had not sent the email yet and that was needed beyond posting here. Likely others are in the same boat. I think this is something that we will need to promote for a while and I think we can get there but not right away. I also have not yet had a chance to post about it on the blog and I am sure that once we talk it up a bit more up in General Discussion that some other blogs may also come on board. I was thinking of a thread in General Discussion to link to a number of things as to where they can be found.

[robkuntz]

Mar 24, 2018 18:35:06 GMT -5 Admin Pete said:

This afternoon before taking my wife out to dinner for our anniversary yesterday, it occurred to me that I had not sent the email yet and that was needed beyond posting here. Likely others are in the same boat. I think this is something that we will need to promote for a while and I think we can get there but not right away. I also have not yet had a chance to post about it on the blog and I am sure that once we talk it up a bit more up in General Discussion that some other blogs may also come on board. I was thinking of a thread in General Discussion to link to a number of things as to where they can be found.

Thanks PD, but don't bother.  It is at best an extension of DATG which has not had a good run so far, as well.  Not due to its content--great if not stupendous reviews--, just no interest, nor do I feel at this point that there will be.   I am not going to get into why I see this as the truth or the whys for it, for I know; i just have to do.

I have decided to go in a completely different direction with what Arneson gifted to us, and outside of the RPG Industry. Once I make up my mind it is pretty well set in stone because I have usually assessed all angles prior to such decisions.

I will be exclusively promoting design theory and systems theory for play from this point forward and will be spending increasingly less time on RPG related matter as well.

In the next 6 months I'll probably be finished with my last effort in RPG's, a history, the BOOK, and from there I hope to stay in theory, essays, board games and other.  RPGs have run their course.
Such irony, too. I have an idea for an open systems RPG, really good *written and outlined in 2010* but cannot/would not produce as it would be something that people would not play.  I would.  Gary would have.  Arneson, of course.  But folks today?  Nah.  They are stuck with their brand of gaming, don't tale chances and look for sameness, a comfort zone.  This is not BITD of wild and carefree meandering, the huge cross sections of science and fiction and history which intersected with design, those days are gone at least as I have attempted to find any comparison to them in this industry.

I have seen this coming, btw, since 2007 and probably even before.  No surprise.  Thought I'd give it a last shot for the good ole times.  No biggy.  I have interested parties outside this hobby sphere, in fact much bigger than within it.  

The Odyssey continues down the twisting road and over those lesser tread and beckoning fields.

[Admin Pete]

Well, I can only echo @piper and, in addition, I hope you don't mind if we continue to ask questions and tease from you the information contained in your design workshops as we try to expand our thinking as you expanded the fellow at Lucca Comics and Games in back in 2015.

Besides that I think that collectively we would like to interview you and eventually with your permission publish that extended interview on our blogs. I always feel like the hardest part is knowing what questions to ask and how to ask them. My energy wanes, but my curiosity does not.

[robkuntz]

Mar 24, 2018 20:24:33 GMT -5 Admin Pete said:

Well, I can only echo @piper and, in addition, I hope you don't mind if we continue to ask questions and tease from you the information contained in your design workshops as we try to expand our thinking as you expanded the fellow at Lucca Comics and Games in back in 2015.

Besides that I think that collectively we would like to interview you and eventually with your permission publish that extended interview on our blogs. I always feel like the hardest part is knowing what questions to ask and how to ask them. My energy wanes, but my curiosity does not.

Thanks.  You know how to contact me via e-mail.

I will be taking a very long hiatus from the internet boards to concentrate on my professional career as it changes underfoot.  Lots of stuff happening here that I have to stay on top of.

As I did at Dragonsfoot I have left my impression here and the content survives for everyone to see.

I have now entered a new stage, discussed and formulated at length between myself and Nathalie for the past year.

Wish me luck and, as I mentioned, you have my e-mail!

[True Black Raven]

"So long and thanks for the all the fish!"  The dolphin has left the building.

Good luck robkuntz in all your ventures.

[Admin Pete]

I do wish you good luck, while I hope you don't need it. I sincerely wish you every good fortune and yes I do have your email.

[mormonyoyoman]

Superamalgamated bummer. I sent out a passel of emails to friends of Games Gone By - which wasn't easy since I'd lost touch with most before email became available outside official channels. Sadly, most of them died before I got to. Didn't think to put it on G+ since it was already there. Duh.

[Deleted]

I believe the issue is this: what Rob has to say is unimpeachable, he was actually there after all, and it upsets the false idea they've formed about D&D. Not only the game but how it came to be, what contributed to that creative process, and how it was played. Some folks would rather cling to their comforting falsehoods then look into the uncomfortable truth.

Added to that? Rob doesn't pre-digest the information for his readers. It's dense writing requiring readers to do exactly that. They must read, comprehend, then carry the thought offered to its logical conclusion.

I hope Rob eventually forges this work. For now? I'm giving another reading to "Dave Arneson's True Genius" and gleaning the nuggets of wisdom it has to offer.

[mormonyoyoman]

Mar 25, 2018 15:14:07 GMT -5 @piper said:

For now? I'm giving another reading to "Dave Arneson's True Genius" and gleaning the nuggets of wisdom it has to offer.

It does shatter a lot of preconceptions and downright falsehoods, dozen it?

[Deleted]

I just now saw this; the way the forum displays for me had it buried.

I don't think it's lack of interest, I think it's lack of marketing. The best product in the world goes nowhere if nobody hears about it.

Quoth the MBA.

[Deleted]

Mar 26, 2018 13:09:48 GMT -5 @gronanofsimmerya said:

I don't think it's lack of interest, I think it's lack of marketing. The best product in the world goes nowhere if nobody hears about it.

Looking back, I can certainly see I should have pushed harder. To be frank, I thought the product would sell itself. This is why am in healthcare and not marketing! I’m really lousy of knowing what will or won’t sell. 

Still? I’m rather taken aback there was no more interest than a solitary e-mail. I didn’t exactly put a full court press on the Internet, but I did make the announcement in places where people who know who Rob is, and what he has to offer, tend to frequent.  

[mormonyoyoman]

It puzzles me too. Has Arneson been so effectively removed from history?