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Post by robkuntz on Apr 1, 2018 17:21:49 GMT -5
I just now saw this; the way the forum displays for me had it buried. I don't think it's lack of interest, I think it's lack of marketing. The best product in the world goes nowhere if nobody hears about it. Quoth the MBA. Michael, I love you buddy,but you are dead wrong with regards to my products. If you saw all of the splendid reviews of both ERK Archive and DATG and ALL of the marketing put into them, THEN, the resultant sales for both, which were way below expectations for even a median sell-through, all of it would make you cry. It's a lot more complex than you paint it, and I'll not get into the nitty gritty details as to the WHYs (as mentioned up thread). Piper has put his finger on it from one angle. He posted at ODD74,what, weeks ago? and still no response from that quarter, which Piper correctly identified as a sector (what, 2,500 or more members?); and that, compared to other sectors, should have been perceived as being more interested in open design ideas, this as opposed to softer gaming circles where ideas are enmeshed in a buy-it-and-play-it disposable market stance and are quite disinterested in theory or in expanding design thought beyond (or even into) a new design mindset. As I mentioned, there are other lucrative and less fractionalized avenues and I am pursuing them. |
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Post by True Black Raven on Apr 1, 2018 17:38:59 GMT -5
@gronanofsimmerya I have been doing a lot of reading, including threads all over the place that you and others are in and what I see is constant push back to you and anyone else that talks about game play as you and robkuntz experienced it back in the day. They are rude, condescending and skeptical of most of what you and the few others like you have to say. I think it is tragic that the things that robkuntz could be writing, will not be written. It is a shame that none of us is rich, it would be fun to be Rob's Patron, as the wealthy subsidized art once upon a time. We can hope that the tide will turn before this knowledge is lost, but it needs to be written down. We can collectively read what has been written, put in the work to understand or at least make the attempt and hopefully at least one of us will get it. Even though Rob is going to be busy earning a living, as must we all, we can still ask questions and he will answer when he has the time to do so. The better, more interesting and insightful questions will have more traction. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2018 19:36:38 GMT -5
I just now saw this; the way the forum displays for me had it buried. I don't think it's lack of interest, I think it's lack of marketing. The best product in the world goes nowhere if nobody hears about it. Quoth the MBA. Michael, I love you buddy,but you are dead wrong with regards to my products. If you saw all of the splendid reviews of both ERK Archive and DATG and ALL of the marketing put into them, THEN, the resultant sales for both, which were way below expectations for even a median sell-through, all of it would make you cry. I believe (with all due apologies if I'm off-base here) Michael was referencing my efforts to get the word out on your proposal ... not your existing works. |
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Post by robkuntz on Apr 1, 2018 23:57:17 GMT -5
Michael, I love you buddy,but you are dead wrong with regards to my products. If you saw all of the splendid reviews of both ERK Archive and DATG and ALL of the marketing put into them, THEN, the resultant sales for both, which were way below expectations for even a median sell-through, all of it would make you cry. I believe (with all due apologies if I'm off-base here) Michael was referencing my efforts to get the word out on your proposal ... not your existing works. Same difference, and explained in my post. I marketed the hell out of 2 unique offerings over the last year oir more and ended up sub-par. It is not about marketing. |
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Post by robkuntz on Apr 2, 2018 0:31:45 GMT -5
@gronanofsimmerya I have been doing a lot of reading, including threads all over the place that you and others are in and what I see is constant push back to you and anyone else that talks about game play as you and robkuntz experienced it back in the day. They are rude, condescending and skeptical of most of what you and the few others like you have to say. I think it is tragic that the things that robkuntz could be writing, will not be written. It is a shame that none of us is rich, it would be fun to be Rob's Patron, as the wealthy subsidized art once upon a time. We can hope that the tide will turn before this knowledge is lost, but it needs to be written down. We can collectively read what has been written, put in the work to understand or at least make the attempt and hopefully at least one of us will get it. Even though Rob is going to be busy earning a living, as must we all, we can still ask questions and he will answer when he has the time to do so. The better, more interesting and insightful questions will have more traction. Well there you put another finger on the WHY just as Piper (for him) inadvertently exposed. The response he got may have surprised him but I was not surprised at all. I was a marketing director for almost 2 years and a business sales manager for 3 years, a lead salesman for 12 years total. I interfaced with fortune 500 and F. 1000 companies no less through a nationwide outfit. This is a small niche market and it does't take long to track its metrics in relation to my product offerings, it's rather simplistic, in fact. And '0" over 2 weeks from what would be considered a prime market is, in sum, very telling and only reinforces my perceptions to date regarding market viability. Hey folks, I have options, people will take my phone call and already have. Designers design. They cannot strive to produce good designs through managed decline. The only difference I see is that my other designs now rise as RPG recedes. In retrospect I am entirely grateful for that as I already have indicators that I will be doing better with different markets. It is the reason Three Line Studio was created to begin with. Three Line also refers to general publishing, my existent leveraging of my IP, and the smallish RPG offerings through the TLB brand (such as Sunken City). I'll be doing fine, no tears here, folks.  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2018 7:59:49 GMT -5
I'll be doing fine, no tears here, folks. In this, at least, we're thankful. I'm glad your Three Line Studios Studio is thriving. |
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Post by robkuntz on Apr 2, 2018 8:09:21 GMT -5
I'll be doing fine, no tears here, folks. In this, at least, we're thankful. I'm glad your Three Line Studios is thriving. Yes we're doing OK with Three Line Studio. Thanks!  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2018 8:56:56 GMT -5
In this, at least, we're thankful. I'm glad your Three Line Studios is thriving. Yes we're doing OK with Three Line Studio. Thanks! Ah, yes: “Studio” not Studios. Thank you for pointing that out, and noted. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2018 14:52:21 GMT -5
I just now saw this; the way the forum displays for me had it buried. I don't think it's lack of interest, I think it's lack of marketing. The best product in the world goes nowhere if nobody hears about it. Quoth the MBA. Michael, I love you buddy,but you are dead wrong with regards to my products. If you saw all of the splendid reviews of both ERK Archive and DATG and ALL of the marketing put into them, THEN, the resultant sales for both, which were way below expectations for even a median sell-through, all of it would make you cry. It's a lot more complex than you paint it, and I'll not get into the nitty gritty details as to the WHYs (as mentioned up thread). Piper has put his finger on it from one angle. He posted at ODD74,what, weeks ago? and still no response from that quarter, which Piper correctly identified as a sector (what, 2,500 or more members?); and that, compared to other sectors, should have been perceived as being more interested in open design ideas, this as opposed to softer gaming circles where ideas are enmeshed in a buy-it-and-play-it disposable market stance and are quite disinterested in theory or in expanding design thought beyond (or even into) a new design mindset. As I mentioned, there are other lucrative and less fractionalized avenues and I am pursuing them. Well, more power to you! I didn't see any notice of this over at ODD74, either. Part of the problem is that these two boards have too many (in my opinion) subforums. I would welcome a feature that told you where all new posts on all new subjects were, in one place. I am not a purchaser of RPG products, so I am fully willing to believe that there is a lot of marketing going on that I'm not seeing. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2018 14:58:19 GMT -5
Same difference, and explained in my post. I marketed the hell out of 2 unique offerings over the last year oir more and ended up sub-par. It is not about marketing. This, I believe. It rather reinforces my hypothesis that most people don't want to spend money on tools for creativity, they want convenience. In my review of DATG (I'm working on it, I promise!) I also mention this. That is, I mention that Rob seems to have the belief (and blessings on him) that people are creative and original and imaginative, and that they'd want tools to leverage their creativity. Me, on the other hand, I believe that most people are booger-eating morons who are fully challenged to their intellectual limits if they can manage to poop unassisted, so it's no wonder that the "corporate TV dinner" version of RPGs triumphed. But Rob knows I've been a cynic about people's intelligence since Mr. Jennerjohn's 7th grade arithmetic class. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2018 15:10:31 GMT -5
I would welcome a feature that told you where all new posts on all new subjects were, in one place. Recent post links: ODD74 & MurkhillEnjoy! |
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Post by robkuntz on Apr 2, 2018 15:36:04 GMT -5
Same difference, and explained in my post. I marketed the hell out of 2 unique offerings over the last year oir more and ended up sub-par. It is not about marketing That is, I mention that Rob seems to have the belief (and blessings on him) that people are creative and original and imaginative, and that they'd want tools to leverage their creativity. Not only do I believe that all people are creative but so did Arneson, so did Gygax; and their belief in promoting such resulted in many thousands of creative masters responding to D&D's advent in unique ways, thats 100% of all who played with it, created their worlds, their extras, etc., 1974-1977(roughly) and even carried on into the premade phase of TSR but has declined due to companies playing to the lowest common denominator in humans--comfort. The latter model is the entrenched one where it's all about entertainment, and so it goes. People bitd created naturally as it was a given in wargames and early RPGs. Now that avenue appears to the general consumer as anachronistic, a throwback; and that is really only a reflection of the marketeers playing to the production/consumption model that is rampant everywhere within our society. So they are not booger-eating morons, they are comfort/entertainment seekers, that which Marcus Aurelius warned about as those who seek no challenges to excel and thus they would ultimately not progress because of this (i.e., there is no window created to progress with a comfortable entertainment model, that's the grooming point for comfortable consumers). I see the RPG industry in its final throes of what Aurelius cautioned about so many hundreds of years ago. On the flip side, boardgame/wargame other industry games are exceeding RPGs for abstraction and creative leaps which, in retrospect considering their limited scope when compared to an open-ended Fantasy model, should not be possible. But it's exactly what's been happening for years. The creative leaps, given all of Fantasy's breadth, are not coming out of this industry, far from it. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Apr 2, 2018 20:12:10 GMT -5
It occurs to me that if we all had a dollar for every time @gronanofsimmerya has typed the words "booger-eating morons" we would all be rich.  |
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Post by Admin Pete on Apr 2, 2018 20:14:30 GMT -5
That is, I mention that Rob seems to have the belief (and blessings on him) that people are creative and original and imaginative, and that they'd want tools to leverage their creativity. Not only do I believe that all people are creative but so did Arneson, so did Gygax; and their belief in promoting such resulted in many thousands of creative masters responding to D&D's advent in unique ways, thats 100% of all who played with it, created their worlds, their extras, etc., 1974-1977(roughly).. The thing that is even worse than the fact that so many aren't interested in being creative and original and imaginative, is that they take offense when you suggest it as a possibility. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2018 21:39:00 GMT -5
Not only do I believe that all people are creative but so did Arneson, so did Gygax; and their belief in promoting such resulted in many thousands of creative masters responding to D&D's advent in unique ways That’s beautiful, man! Have an exalt. |
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Post by robkuntz on Apr 3, 2018 2:12:35 GMT -5
My lead-in quote from "A New Ethos in Game Design":
The contest between the mechanistic and vitalistic conceptions is like a game of chess played over nearly two thousand years. It is essentially the same arguments that always come back, though in manifold disguises, modifications, and forms. In the last resort, they are an expression of two opposing tendencies in the human mind. – Ludwig von Bertalanffy (1952)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2018 7:13:46 GMT -5
If you follow anything on social media... the "big thing" is no longer eating Tide pods.
The new "big thing" is... snorting condoms. That's right, those rubber thingummies a man puts over his John Thomas.
People are snorting them up their noses and pulling them out of their mouths.
Most people are NOT booger-eating morons. Most people are not SMART ENOUGH to be booger-eating morons.
I hereby apologize to all the booger-eating morons out there.
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Post by robkuntz on Apr 3, 2018 7:18:20 GMT -5
If you follow anything on social media... the "big thing" is no longer eating Tide pods. The new "big thing" is... snorting condoms. That's right, those rubber thingummies a man puts over his John Thomas. People are snorting them up their noses and pulling them out of their mouths. Most people are NOT booger-eating morons. Most people are not SMART ENOUGH to be booger-eating morons. I hereby apologize to all the booger-eating morons out there. A rather lop-sided and ultimately false equivalence. I have been referring to those in the gaming culture--wargames, RPG, games in general--and not the wet behind the ears average snowflake (though I am sure they in small part must drift in and out of such cultures now and then). |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2018 7:35:46 GMT -5
(Pssst.... it was a joke!)
Well, people are actually doing it, but...
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Post by robkuntz on Apr 3, 2018 7:39:37 GMT -5
(Pssst.... it was a joke!) Well, people are actually doing it, but... Well, I am not Joking. I am deadly serious with all of my above written matter. Care to address the points rather than sidling this way or that?  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2018 7:44:30 GMT -5
One of the reasons I dislike modules, and "Adventure Paths" even more, is... they have no variance.
"Here is an adventure path about rescuing a princess." Not only are the players constrained in their freedom of action, but I as referee am even more constrained.
I never really wanted to be a game writer. But even my fantasy game, set in my version of Howard's Hyborian Age, can be an exercise in creative imagining. As I've said many times, "If I set up a situation, and figure out solutions 1 through 10, the players will encounter that situation and come up with solutions "purple" through "asparagus". That's why the game is still fun."
The consumer "TV dinner" version of RPGs not only hobbles those who might want to create games, it hobbles those who play as well. You will never find a reporter for the "Balrog Times" in a module or adventure path, but Rob and I took a running jump and leaped. It was not only hilarious, but it was awesomely fun because we were "working without a net." "Tonight Only, the Flying Garbanzo Brothers!"
So, this matters to folks even if they don't want to make a new game. The language we use determines what we can talk about.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2018 7:45:20 GMT -5
(Pssst.... it was a joke!) Well, people are actually doing it, but... Well, I am not Joking. I am deadly serious with all of my above written matter. Care to address the points rather than sidling this way or that? Oh, come on. HOW long have you known me? This is how my grubby little brain works. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2018 7:53:25 GMT -5
For that matter, very early on in this geological epoch, like early 80s, I encountered folks who re-played modules. I myself can't imagine that. Yes, I will reread favorite books, but games are not books.
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Post by Admin Pete on Apr 3, 2018 8:24:21 GMT -5
One of the reasons I dislike modules, and "Adventure Paths" even more, is... they have no variance. "Here is an adventure path about rescuing a princess." Not only are the players constrained in their freedom of action, but I as referee am even more constrained. I never really wanted to be a game writer. But even my fantasy game, set in my version of Howard's Hyborian Age, can be an exercise in creative imagining. As I've said many times, "If I set up a situation, and figure out solutions 1 through 10, the players will encounter that situation and come up with solutions "purple" through "asparagus". That's why the game is still fun." The consumer "TV dinner" version of RPGs not only hobbles those who might want to create games, it hobbles those who play as well. You will never find a reporter for the "Balrog Times" in a module or adventure path, but Rob and I took a running jump and leaped. It was not only hilarious, but it was awesomely fun because we were "working without a net." "Tonight Only, the Flying Garbanzo Brothers!" So, this matters to folks even if they don't want to make a new game. The language we use determines what we can talk about. This is awesome, "purple" thorugh "asparagus". Not to say that I don't do any prep work ever, I do but with a broad brush. But there are many reasons why I like to ref on the fly, improv if you will, seat of the pants all the way. In the moment, I come up with stuff that I would never come up with, if I were to set down and try to pre-write an adventure path. Creating on the fly allows me to have no pre-conceived solutions 1 through 10 let alone an "Adventure Path" and neither I nor the players are constrained in our freedom of action. I am always waiting to find out what "purple" through "asparagus" may happen and spend no time worrying about why the players are not doing what I imagined and wrote down. As I said, this seems to offend people when you suggest they can do it to. I never learned any other way. I started with the 3LBBs and had no one to teach me that there was another more orderly constrained way to do it. Like i say prep work is the broad brush, the details are in the doing. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Apr 3, 2018 8:26:41 GMT -5
My lead-in quote from "A New Ethos in Game Design": The contest between the mechanistic and vitalistic conceptions is like a game of chess played over nearly two thousand years. It is essentially the same arguments that always come back, though in manifold disguises, modifications, and forms. In the last resort, they are an expression of two opposing tendencies in the human mind. – Ludwig von Bertalanffy (1952) Open versus Closed, Freedom versus Slavery, Creative Active Fun versus Mindless Passive Entertainment. |
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Post by robkuntz on Apr 4, 2018 0:57:06 GMT -5
Well, I am not Joking. I am deadly serious with all of my above written matter. Care to address the points rather than sidling this way or that? Oh, come on. HOW long have you known me? This is how my grubby little brain works. Sure, we go back as friends further than my time with Gygax. Which is why I can prod you to participate with that design side of your brain rather than with the quip side. |
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Post by robkuntz on Apr 4, 2018 1:07:51 GMT -5
My lead-in quote from "A New Ethos in Game Design": The contest between the mechanistic and vitalistic conceptions is like a game of chess played over nearly two thousand years. It is essentially the same arguments that always come back, though in manifold disguises, modifications, and forms. In the last resort, they are an expression of two opposing tendencies in the human mind. – Ludwig von Bertalanffy (1952) Open versus Closed, Freedom versus Slavery, Creative Active Fun versus Mindless Passive Entertainment. Three fine examples, especially the second. Ludwig von Bertalanffy also wrote General Systems Theory (1968) and identified open and closed systems. He is honored as being one of the greater (and then underrated) thinkers of the last century. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2018 13:46:34 GMT -5
Oh, come on. HOW long have you known me? This is how my grubby little brain works. Sure, we go back as friends further than my time with Gygax. Which is why I can prod you to participate with that design side of your brain rather than with the quip side. And hence my post just before the one you quoted, about how thinking in closed systems about games affects not only how we write games, but how we can play the games others write. "Everything not forbidden is permitted" is in serious danger of disappearing. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2018 15:27:18 GMT -5
@gronanofsimmerya
Michael? Did you the recent posts links I posted upstream?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2018 17:02:13 GMT -5
Yes I did, thanks. I wish that the board automatically had such a feature; a subsection that showed all new threads in the whole board.
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