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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2018 17:05:42 GMT -5
Oopsie! There IS such an animal! Down in the "Forum Statistics" is "Recently Updated Threads," which is exactly what I was asking for...  |
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Post by dragondaddy on Apr 4, 2018 19:24:04 GMT -5
Well there you put another finger on the WHY just as Piper (for him) inadvertently exposed. The response he got may have surprised him but I was not surprised at all. I was a marketing director for almost 2 years and a business sales manager for 3 years, a lead salesman for 12 years total. I interfaced with fortune 500 and F. 1000 companies no less through a nationwide outfit. This is a small niche market and it doesn't take long to track its metrics in relation to my product offerings, it's rather simplistic, in fact. And '0" over 2 weeks from what would be considered a prime market is, in sum, very telling and only reinforces my perceptions to date regarding market viability. Hey folks, I have options, people will take my phone call and already have. Designers design. They cannot strive to produce good designs through managed decline. The only difference I see is that my other designs now rise as RPG recedes. In retrospect I am entirely grateful for that as I already have indicators that I will be doing better with different markets. It is the reason Three Line Studio was created to begin with. Three Line also refers to general publishing, my existent leveraging of my IP, and the smallish RPG offerings through the TLB brand (such as Sunken City). I'll be doing fine, no tears here, folks.  Yes... figured this out in 2000-2001 for myself when kicking off a new RPG design company. I did artwork, maps and floorplans for RPGs for an entire year, picked up over a thousand customers, worked harder and longer than at any other job, and made just enough money, ...just barely, to put food on the table for my family when times were lean. Also managed to pay all of our bills, but didn't earn a cent extra to invest or put into a retirement fund for later. I make much, much better money with computer hardware and software maintenance, programming, electronics repair & maintenance, and in teaching. Gaming is just a hobby for me now, although I do appreciate the insight and revelations about the early days of RPGs as I was seeing it the entire picture from a much smaller perspective. Anything you would care to create and share, is automatically on my buy list though, ...as I believe it is important to maintain an accurate history of RPGs, and further also really enjoy the discussions and debates on RPG design and theory. |
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Post by robkuntz on Apr 5, 2018 2:57:06 GMT -5
One of the reasons I dislike modules, and "Adventure Paths" even more, is... they have no variance. "Here is an adventure path about rescuing a princess." Not only are the players constrained in their freedom of action, but I as referee am even more constrained. I never really wanted to be a game writer. But even my fantasy game, set in my version of Howard's Hyborian Age, can be an exercise in creative imagining. As I've said many times, "If I set up a situation, and figure out solutions 1 through 10, the players will encounter that situation and come up with solutions "purple" through "asparagus". That's why the game is still fun." The consumer "TV dinner" version of RPGs not only hobbles those who might want to create games, it hobbles those who play as well. You will never find a reporter for the "Balrog Times" in a module or adventure path, but Rob and I took a running jump and leaped. It was not only hilarious, but it was awesomely fun because we were "working without a net." "Tonight Only, the Flying Garbanzo Brothers!" So, this matters to folks even if they don't want to make a new game. The language we use determines what we can talk about. Addressing designed-in constraints, from NEIGD, commentary C54 (©2013-2018 RJ Kuntz. All Rights Reserved): C54: The more that rules remain local and immutable the more they take upon the aspects of Laws. In today’s mainstay RPGs one need not wonder why the rules are specifically linked to premade adventures. The play area has been cordoned off by a combination of rules and formats used as an integrated, ordered, and precise system. Any attempt to diverge from this pattern is met by virtual signatures equating to “Off Limits.” These signatures not only define where you cannot go, but where you must go, within the system. |
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Post by robkuntz on Apr 5, 2018 2:59:39 GMT -5
Well there you put another finger on the WHY just as Piper (for him) inadvertently exposed. The response he got may have surprised him but I was not surprised at all. I was a marketing director for almost 2 years and a business sales manager for 3 years, a lead salesman for 12 years total. I interfaced with fortune 500 and F. 1000 companies no less through a nationwide outfit. This is a small niche market and it doesn't take long to track its metrics in relation to my product offerings, it's rather simplistic, in fact. And '0" over 2 weeks from what would be considered a prime market is, in sum, very telling and only reinforces my perceptions to date regarding market viability. Hey folks, I have options, people will take my phone call and already have. Designers design. They cannot strive to produce good designs through managed decline. The only difference I see is that my other designs now rise as RPG recedes. In retrospect I am entirely grateful for that as I already have indicators that I will be doing better with different markets. It is the reason Three Line Studio was created to begin with. Three Line also refers to general publishing, my existent leveraging of my IP, and the smallish RPG offerings through the TLB brand (such as Sunken City). I'll be doing fine, no tears here, folks. Yes... figured this out in 2000-2001 for myself when kicking off a new RPG design company. I did artwork, maps and floorplans for RPGs for an entire year, picked up over a thousand customers, worked harder and longer than at any other job, and made just enough money, ...just barely, to put food on the table for my family when times were lean. Also managed to pay all of our bills, but didn't earn a cent extra to invest or put into a retirement fund for later. I make much, much better money with computer hardware and software maintenance, programming, electronics repair & maintenance, and in teaching. Gaming is just a hobby for me now, although I do appreciate the insight and revelations about the early days of RPGs as I was seeing it the entire picture from a much smaller perspective. Anything you would care to create and share, is automatically on my buy list though, ...as I believe it is important to maintain an accurate history of RPGs, and further also really enjoy the discussions and debates on RPG design and theory. Right on, Dragondaddy. I'll be around expressing my thoughts, I am considering all options. A designing I will go... See you around the dragon eyrie... |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2018 3:10:28 GMT -5
Addressing designed-in constraints, from NEIGD, commentary C54 (©2013-2018 RJ Kuntz. All Rights Reserved): C54: The more that rules remain local and immutable the more they take upon the aspects of Laws. In today’s mainstay RPGs one need not wonder why the rules are specifically linked to premade adventures. The play area has been cordoned off by a combination of rules and formats used as an integrated, ordered, and precise system. Any attempt to diverge from this pattern is met by virtual signatures equating to “Off Limits.” These signatures not only define where you cannot go, but where you must go, within the system. Yes. It has reached the point where tabletop canned adventures are indistinguishable from computer adventures. In a computer "rpg," the possible actions of the players are limited by the very form of the game to what the programmer has programmed in. If you are "supposed" to fight an enemy, there is no possibility of bluffing, negotiation, evasion, or any other action; the only permitted action is what the computer has been programmed to accept. TTRPGs in a closed system have always had some elements of this, but it has become common. Just last Tuesday I was playing in an 'adventure path' game involving a race of sailing ships. It turned out at the end that the "adventure path" was rigged; no matter what the players did or did not do, no matter what plan they thought of, whether they sailed aggressively or took in a reef the moment the wind went over 15 knots... they would win. I outgrew "being allowed to win" sometime before I hit age 10. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2018 6:28:23 GMT -5
I outgrew "being allowed to win" sometime before I hit age 10. (applause) and exalt. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Apr 5, 2018 7:03:27 GMT -5
I outgrew "being allowed to win" sometime before I hit age 10. (applause) and exalt. If I was ever allowed to win, I can't remember it, my family played everything for blood. My grandmother taught me to play Chinese Checkers and the first game I won was after years of playing and I had to earn it. When she was 88 I won three games in a row and I went home and told my mother and she said something was wrong so she got the doctor to look at grandma's medicine and the next time we played she won six out of six and it took me a couple of weeks to get my next win. Her daughter, my aunt, is 96 (97 in May) and she is frail but still wins more at Scrabble than she loses. They always said letting someone win only delays them learning to play better. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2018 13:05:17 GMT -5
I agree; "going easy" on someone teaches them nothing.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2018 16:38:51 GMT -5
Dear Crom I'm depressed. This hobby has gone to Hel; as in, the goddess of death has taken it. It's all about following the fixed path and quibbling over "feat trees" and "player agency."
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Post by robkuntz on Apr 5, 2018 16:55:34 GMT -5
Dear Crom I'm depressed. This hobby has gone to Hel; as in, the goddess of death has taken it. It's all about following the fixed path and quibbling over "feat trees" and "player agency." It's the Superman Entitlement Giveaway contest. Everyone gets a participation trophy and a side order of 'stuck forever' in a repeatable, disposable model. FUN has been reinterpreted and down-sized to "tiny" under the guise of whoever gets a different colored lollipop, WINS!! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2018 18:05:05 GMT -5
In some circles it is now not only unacceptable to die, it is unacceptable to MISS. No, I'm not kidding.
Granted, there are truly clunky games out there where a turn can take half an hour or more, and I'm serious. If I only got to roll dice every half hour I'd hate to miss too. But gimmicking the rules so you don't miss is fixing the wrong problem.
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Apr 12, 2018 13:19:14 GMT -5
I would welcome a feature that told you where all new posts on all new subjects were, in one place. Recent post links: ODD74 & MurkhillEnjoy! Thank you!! Bookmarked for time & all eternity! Maybe I won't be lost as often as befo----Wait. Why did I walk into this room? |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Apr 12, 2018 13:24:54 GMT -5
Same difference, and explained in my post. I marketed the hell out of 2 unique offerings over the last year oir more and ended up sub-par. It is not about marketing. What a shame! We'll never see Rob's version of Dante's Inferno. Though I probably don't need a description of Hell. After all, I've lived in California AND the Philippines when they were each totalitarian. ("Sayin' 'Hell' ain't cussin' -- it's geography!") |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Apr 12, 2018 13:43:45 GMT -5
It occurs to me that if we all had a dollar for every time @gronanofsimmerya has typed the words "booger-eating morons" we would all be rich.  Yea, verily this deserves an Exalt. Here it is:
(It's too large, but I'm too ignerrint to know howta shrink it. Tried washing it in hot water, but it didn't shrink.)  |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Apr 12, 2018 13:50:59 GMT -5
That is, I mention that Rob seems to have the belief (and blessings on him) that people are creative and original and imaginative, and that they'd want tools to leverage their creativity. Not only do I believe that all people are creative but so did Arneson, so did Gygax; and their belief in promoting such resulted in many thousands of creative masters responding to D&D's advent in unique ways, thats 100% of all who played with it, created their worlds, their extras, etc., 1974-1977(roughly) and even carried on into the premade phase of TSR but has declined due to companies playing to the lowest common denominator in humans--comfort. The latter model is the entrenched one where it's all about entertainment, and so it goes. People bitd created naturally as it was a given in wargames and early RPGs. Now that avenue appears to the general consumer as anachronistic, a throwback; and that is really only a reflection of the marketeers playing to the production/consumption model that is rampant everywhere within our society. So they are not booger-eating morons, they are comfort/entertainment seekers, that which Marcus Aurelius warned about as those who seek no challenges to excel and thus they would ultimately not progress because of this (i.e., there is no window created to progress with a comfortable entertainment model, that's the grooming point for comfortable consumers). I see the RPG industry in its final throes of what Aurelius cautioned about so many hundreds of years ago. On the flip side, boardgame/wargame other industry games are exceeding RPGs for abstraction and creative leaps which, in retrospect considering their limited scope when compared to an open-ended Fantasy model, should not be possible. But it's exactly what's been happening for years. The creative leaps, given all of Fantasy's breadth, are not coming out of this industry, far from it. This gets an exalt also, though I'm not going to place an enormous jpg image again. I might quibble about whether Gygax believed that all people are creative - or, more accurately, that he didn't seem to have that belief from 1977 until he was kicked to the curb and seemed to regain his soul. (I'm no biographer, and there are already too many biographers who think they are able to read the minds of the dead.) However, I do believe that people can have the creativity educated out of them - not necessarily by formal education as much as by comfort and safety. We baby boomers may have been the first generation of Americans who grew up thinking that prosperity was the default setting for Earth. |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Apr 12, 2018 13:55:51 GMT -5
Not only do I believe that all people are creative but so did Arneson, so did Gygax; and their belief in promoting such resulted in many thousands of creative masters responding to D&D's advent in unique ways, thats 100% of all who played with it, created their worlds, their extras, etc., 1974-1977(roughly).. The thing that is even worse than the fact that so many aren't interested in being creative and original and imaginative, is that they take offense when you suggest it as a possibility. Or as Spider Robinson adapted "the Blind Men and the Elephant" or H. G. Wells reverse-suggested "In the Country of the Blind" insisted, these (morally, ethically? What term can we use for "stupidly blind"?) people hate and attack any person who suggests that they are not really blind. |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Apr 12, 2018 13:57:56 GMT -5
If you follow anything on social media... the "big thing" is no longer eating Tide pods. The new "big thing" is... snorting condoms. That's right, those rubber thingummies a man puts over his John Thomas. People are snorting them up their noses and pulling them out of their mouths. Most people are NOT booger-eating morons. Most people are not SMART ENOUGH to be booger-eating morons. I hereby apologize to all the booger-eating morons out there. I yam handing out too many exalts today. Really, this is the last one for today. Honest to Mergatroid! |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Apr 12, 2018 14:09:58 GMT -5
I agree; "going easy" on someone teaches them nothing. It teaches them to give up when the going gets -- not even tough, but less easy. History shows far too many examples of the 2nd most horrible thing about slavery (think Moses leading the Jewish slaves to freedom) fearful attitudes of "Who will take care of us now?" |
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Post by robkuntz on Apr 16, 2018 19:15:31 GMT -5
I agree; "going easy" on someone teaches them nothing. It teaches them to give up when the going gets -- not even tough, but less easy. History shows far too many examples of the 2nd most horrible thing about slavery (think Moses leading the Jewish slaves to freedom) fearful attitudes of "Who will take care of us now?" SO i didn't go easy on anyone while defining a new system (NEW) with systems language in DATG and look what it got me. How many hats do you guys wear when it is convenient to do so...? |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Apr 16, 2018 19:19:43 GMT -5
I wear as many hats as my multiple personalities tell me to wear.
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Post by True Black Raven on Apr 16, 2018 19:30:51 GMT -5
It occurs to me that if we all had a dollar for every time @gronanofsimmerya has typed the words "booger-eating morons" we would all be rich. Yea, verily this deserves an Exalt. Here it is:
(It's too large, but I'm too ignerrint to know howta shrink it. Tried washing it in hot water, but it didn't shrink.) Sweet car! I looked at it in BBCode and where is says size equals 100% I changed it to 50% (carefully) |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Apr 16, 2018 19:32:50 GMT -5
Thankyewveddymuch. I shall have to remember to use the BB code window when I'm on a Windows computer.
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Post by True Black Raven on Apr 16, 2018 19:38:33 GMT -5
It teaches them to give up when the going gets -- not even tough, but less easy. History shows far too many examples of the 2nd most horrible thing about slavery (think Moses leading the Jewish slaves to freedom) fearful attitudes of "Who will take care of us now?" SO i didn't go easy on anyone while defining a new system (NEW) with systems language in DATG and look what it got me. How many hats do you guys wear when it is convenient to do so...? , you know prophets are always stoned, but one day you will be revered by the descendants of those throwing stones and they will never appreciate the irony that while they are revering you, they will also stone their own prophets. Besides no one thanks their parents during childhood while they are learning those tough lessons, that comes later when they are raising their own children, then they understand. Most of us reading DATG are children in a sense, someday we will thank you, but right now the lessons are tough, thinking is hard work. |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Apr 17, 2018 19:47:32 GMT -5
robkuntz, you know prophets are always stoned Except for those who were shot or sawed in half. I am so proud of myself for not typing "Some are only a little tipsy." |
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Post by robkuntz on Apr 18, 2018 10:39:16 GMT -5
SO i didn't go easy on anyone while defining a new system (NEW) with systems language in DATG and look what it got me. How many hats do you guys wear when it is convenient to do so...? , you know prophets are always stoned, but one day you will be revered by the descendants of those throwing stones and they will never appreciate the irony that while they are revering you, they will also stone their own prophets. Besides no one thanks their parents during childhood while they are learning those tough lessons, that comes later when they are raising their own children, then they understand. Most of us reading DATG are children in a sense, someday we will thank you, but right now the lessons are tough, thinking is hard work. Well, I'm just a messenger and a principle from that time period. Arneson was the prophet. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 11:58:57 GMT -5
SO i didn't go easy on anyone while defining a new system (NEW) with systems language in DATG and look what it got me. How many hats do you guys wear when it is convenient to do so...? Consistency? You want consistency? * pokes self in stomach * My consistency, alas, may best be described as "suetlike." |
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Post by Admin Pete on Apr 18, 2018 12:37:55 GMT -5
robkuntz , you know prophets are always stoned, but one day you will be revered by the descendants of those throwing stones and they will never appreciate the irony that while they are revering you, they will also stone their own prophets. Besides no one thanks their parents during childhood while they are learning those tough lessons, that comes later when they are raising their own children, then they understand. Most of us reading DATG are children in a sense, someday we will thank you, but right now the lessons are tough, thinking is hard work. Well, I'm just a messenger and a principle from that time period. Arneson was the prophet. A prophet is a person who advocates or speaks in a visionary way about a new belief, cause, or theory. So Arneson was a prophet and as you follow in his footsteps on your own path advocating for that which he created, that also makes you a prophet in the same sense that it applies to Arneson. Anyone who is part of telling the crowd that they are mistaken in what they believe will be stoned either literally or figuratively. Some Arneson "fans" are only "fans" of their limited perception of Blackmoor and that only because it was first. Unfortunately they fail to be a fan of what Arneson forwarded and thus are obstacles to the truth while pretending to be friendly to the truth. |
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Post by robkuntz on Apr 18, 2018 14:28:22 GMT -5
Well, I'm just a messenger and a principle from that time period. Arneson was the prophet. A prophet is a person who advocates or speaks in a visionary way about a new belief, cause, or theory. So Arneson was a prophet and as you follow in his footsteps on your own path advocating for that which he created, that also makes you a prophet in the same sense that it applies to Arneson. Anyone who is part of telling the crowd that they are mistaken in what they believe will be stoned either literally or figuratively. Some Arneson "fans" are only "fans" of their limited perception of Blackmoor and that only because it was first. Unfortunately they fail to be a fan of what Arneson forwarded and thus are obstacles to the truth while pretending to be friendly to the truth. Prophets never name themselves thus. I remain the messenger for what Arneson created. Call it "Unpacking his design theory and systems organization" if you wish. I am merely relaying what I witnessed and experienced AND as prodded on by the nagging reflection (starting about 2006) that systemic attitudes amongst gamers in this hobby-cum-industry had become so disjointed/diffuse from what we had experienced during the play-tests and early days; that people could no longer fathom even the simplest of concepts that the MMSA and the LGTSA were furthering then. I do not see this as prophetic but as a part of that history, a retelling and reaffirmation of what Arneson promoted, albeit in more concrete scientific and design philosophy measures. It is also an assessment point from my 45 years in design. What seems prophetic is in fact actually hidden in plain view if one only takes the time to look at it for what it is. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 14:46:08 GMT -5
It teaches them to give up when the going gets -- not even tough, but less easy. History shows far too many examples of the 2nd most horrible thing about slavery (think Moses leading the Jewish slaves to freedom) fearful attitudes of "Who will take care of us now?" SO i didn't go easy on anyone while defining a new system (NEW) with systems language in DATG and look what it got me. How many hats do you guys wear when it is convenient to do so...? I am assuming that your objective was to clearly and comprehensively present your thesis to as wide an audience as possible. My objective is to enjoy my game. If one other person enjoys it, that is enough. I'm not trying to present my game to as wide an audience as possible. Different objectives dictate different methodologies. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 14:50:09 GMT -5
relaying what I witnessed and experienced AND as prodded on by the nagging reflection (starting about 2006) that systemic attitudes amongst gamers in this hobby-cum-industry had become so disjointed/diffuse from what we had experienced during the play-tests and early days; This is extremely important. For the first several years, RPGs spread like a fever. It was trivially easy to "get non gamers to play;" people would wander by, say "What are you doing?", and ten minutes later were playing. Almost half the people who played started running some version of a fantasy RPG of their own, often with very loose rules involving continual negotiation with the other players. How to put the emphasis back on the conceptual instead of the mechanical, and how to break the closed system open again? |
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