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Post by hengest on Oct 17, 2016 9:23:14 GMT -5
This was inspired by the "Sad DM" thread currently active here, but I don't think it will quite fit there, so I'm trying it here. A good bit of the fun I've had playing D&D -- and a lot of the fun in other friendly activities -- has come from the activity that I'm not sure of a name for. Group "riffing" on a ridiculous or impossible thought. Something fantastical, but usually within the bounds of what's technically possible. Going back and forth, laughing, adjusting, everyone volunteering contributions. I think I've done this in some form as long as I've had real friends, since junior high or so (and maybe some version of it even before that). Same thing happens in a different way when it's fueled by some piece of popular culture, especially episodic stuff (Star Trek, Game of Thrones more recently, you know). I never thought to talk about this or try to give a name to it until my wife identified it as a very "American" thing that she doesn't understand or do at all. My wife is Russian in origin but has lived here for 20 years. Excellent, normal English. No problems living in this culture. But this isn't her thing. She observes it like I would observe something that to me is almost incomprehensibly bizarre. My questions for the thread, if anyone bites, are these: -Do you know what I'm talking about? -Have you known people (from an anglophone, American culture or not) who didn't habitually do this? -If there is any chance that this (or a particular flavor of it, I'm not thinking that 'imagination' is limited to this corner of the human race) is somehow an anglo-American phenomenon? -If so, does it seem likely that this was a factor in the growth of the hobby? -Finally, is it possible that this "soil" has been altered in the generations that have come up since the start of the hobby, contributing to the decline after the boom in the 70s and 80s? |
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Post by robkuntz on Oct 17, 2016 10:30:15 GMT -5
Well it derives from the thought process itself, speculation, playing with things, what if, improvisation, etc. It's a very human attribute however one assigns its origin; there are layers built into the human evolutionary fabric for "what if" and by extension for sometimes less than sensical purposes nowadays; and relating to folk story sharing, campfire stories, extemporaneous play, word associations, anything that can imaginatively be used to find correspondences. Improvisation, created by Viola Spolin for the theatre, was centered around activities and theatre games that included such associative thinking/responses. Other games come to mind that are related to parlor games or those used by the 'Scouts, schools and hospital and bedside word games. I cover some of this history in my book (see my sig).
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Post by robkuntz on Oct 17, 2016 10:48:04 GMT -5
Inspector Hengest quoth": "-Finally, is it possible that this "soil" has been altered in the generations that have come up since the start of the hobby, contributing to the decline after the boom in the 70s and 80s?"
I also cover this in my book. Basically RPGs moved from open to closed forms, thus the mental patterning switched and the outputs, thus the philosophical pitch, are less than conducive to the former.
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Post by Admin Pete on Oct 17, 2016 11:28:25 GMT -5
My questions for the thread, if anyone bites, are these: -Do you know what I'm talking about? Yes, I do and it is one the most fun things you can do. -Have you known people (from an anglophone, American culture or not) who didn't habitually do this? Among everyone I have ever met (I'm 60) that plays D&D I have found that behavior and in all non-D&D (RPG) players I have never observed it. I would expect to find it in anyone who loves fantasy and/or science fiction; however, I believe that only a subset of that group does this. -If there is any chance that this (or a particular flavor of it, I'm not thinking that 'imagination' is limited to this corner of the human race) is somehow an anglo-American phenomenon? I think it has more to do with your parents - did they feed your imagination as a child or did they stunt it. I think that is likely the biggest determinant. I know people who take life too seriously to ever let their hair down enough to do this. -If so, does it seem likely that this was a factor in the growth of the hobby? Yes, I think that this was a factor in the beginning. I also think that the ability to do this coincides with the most creative part of the hobby. -Finally, is it possible that this "soil" has been altered in the generations that have come up since the start of the hobby, contributing to the decline after the boom in the 70s and 80s? Absolutely the "soil" has been altered. I think most of us would be appalled if we knew how few children today are growing up without the influence of fairy tales and folktales and parents that read and tell stories and sing with their kids. Some kids are only exposed to sanitized, bland dead stuff. That definitely alters the "soil." If it were up to me part of that school day would be spent on world culture in the form of fairy tales, folk tales, folk songs and the like and children would be taught to tell those tales and sing those songs and how to create their own stories and songs. We are limiting our kids with our current education. There are good schools out there, but they are few and far between. They could do so much more. How many potentially great teachers are being destroyed by our educational system. |
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Post by hengest on Oct 17, 2016 11:45:05 GMT -5
I continue to look forward to robkuntz's book. Yeah, I recognize that this sort of thing (imagination, speculation) is pretty much part of being human. But what I described in my original post seems quite close to tabletop roleplaying -- a shared imaginary space in which the 'boundaries' of certain situations are tested, though there, as opposed to RPGs, it's almost like professional bridge -- you run the same thing again and again, tweaking it until you really like it. The engagement and serious playfulness seem quite alike. Otherwise, the main difference seems to be that in an RPG, even as they were played at the beginning (as far as I understand that), there's a "first among equals" DM and there are randomizers. Guess I'd be interested to hear about where people have encountered an absence of this kind of imaginative play, if anywhere. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Oct 17, 2016 11:54:54 GMT -5
Guess I'd be interested to hear about where people have encountered an absence of this kind of imaginative play, if anywhere. IME it is completely absent among those who do not read for pleasure. |
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Post by hengest on Oct 17, 2016 12:13:50 GMT -5
Awesome replies from Admin Pete here. Thanks a lot, Admin Pete ! Replies to parts of your post below. Among everyone I have ever met (I'm 60) that plays D&D I have found that behavior and in all non-D&D (RPG) players I have never observed it. I would expect to find it in anyone who loves fantasy and/or science fiction; however, I believe that only a subset of that group does this. These couple sentences contain a lot. First, I am interested that you have never observed it outside of RPG players. I certainly have done it actively and for a long time with non-RPG players, which is why I suspected it was more widespread or even a near-universal in US culture. Maybe that is not the case. However, I can guess at what you mean about how only a subset of the science fiction / fantasy subculture does this. I am not so steeped in that culture to know for sure, but from observation I think I know what you're guessing at: there are people who lean more toward consuming the product and people who treat the product more as 'input' for their own 'recipes'. Also interesting here. I always felt that my imagination and general mental development were stunted as a kid, but a) maybe not and b) maybe, but maybe not to the degree they might have been. My parents (somewhat ridiculously) gave me a collection of the Grimms' folktales for my first birthday, and while I couldn't do much with it for several years, once I discovered it I tore through everything in that book. I also read a million other things, comic books and books, later on my own, but early on with a fair bit of instruction and advice from my parents -- the same sort of advice I find myself sometimes giving to other adults who never got this kind of instruction as a kid. This is madly depressing, but I was glad to read it, anyway. I fantasize often about how to improve education, both in ways that are literally impracticable and in ways that are unlikely to be adopted but are technically doable. This suggestion above is excellent and I would share it (and will share it, attributing it to a friend) with anyone open to thinking about what to do with their kids at home. Stories. Read them and even tell them. Songs. Languages -- including English! The 19th-century work on collecting folktales before they all vanished was great. Tolkien refers to this when Theoden says "Songs we have that tell of these things, but we are forgetting them, teaching them only to children, as a careless custom." That seems impossibly sad. But to think -- now many are not even doing that! There is a hunger, even a need for myth as expressed in story. People will chase that and will find themselves overpowered politically or personally by those who have an intuitive grasp of how to exploit a narrative to their own benefit. Very dangerous for individual persons and for our culture as a whole. Well, this greatly enriched my original post, thanks again, looking forward to hearing from others. |
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Post by hengest on Oct 17, 2016 12:14:43 GMT -5
Guess I'd be interested to hear about where people have encountered an absence of this kind of imaginative play, if anywhere. IME it is completely absent among those who do not read for pleasure. Ugh. I think you have hit the nail on the head. I don't like to think about it, but there it is. Quite clear. |
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Post by robkuntz on Oct 17, 2016 12:16:11 GMT -5
I continue to look forward to robkuntz 's book. Yeah, I recognize that this sort of thing (imagination, speculation) is pretty much part of being human. But what I described in my original post seems quite close to tabletop roleplaying -- a shared imaginary space in which the 'boundaries' of certain situations are tested, though there, as opposed to RPGs, it's almost like professional bridge -- you run the same thing again and again, tweaking it until you really like it. The engagement and serious playfulness seem quite alike. Otherwise, the main difference seems to be that in an RPG, even as they were played at the beginning (as far as I understand that), there's a "first among equals" DM and there are randomizers. Guess I'd be interested to hear about where people have encountered an absence of this kind of imaginative play, if anywhere. It's called "play"/ Think of children playing, or remember yourself at play back when. In play theory we have open play and directed play. D&D is a mixture of both and adds another dimension in that the play can extend indefinitely in an ongoing and building conceptual environment that perforce can change its rules and laws like in open play. One cannot divorce serendipity from play, so if one does that you end up with hard fast rules and structure (a closed form) that constrains the properties being generated by open play (non-constrained imagination). This is what I alluded to above with the change from open to closed forms in RPGs and the philosophical divide that now exists, which is in essence linear vs. granular thought. Play is not linear; structured rules are. This is D&D's greatest achievement in that we have two systems cooperating as one. And there you have the essence of my upcoming book on Arneson due out in approximately 2 months. |
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Post by Mighty Darci on Oct 17, 2016 15:30:41 GMT -5
If it were up to me part of that school day would be spent on world culture in the form of fairy tales, folk tales, folk songs and the like and children would be taught to tell those tales and sing those songs and how to create their own stories and songs. We are limiting our kids with our current education. There are good schools out there, but they are few and far between. They could do so much more. How many potentially great teachers are being destroyed by our educational system. You've got my vote for the school board!  |
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Post by Mighty Darci on Oct 17, 2016 15:34:00 GMT -5
IME it is completely absent among those who do not read for pleasure. Ugh. I think you have hit the nail on the head. I don't like to think about it, but there it is. Quite clear. Reading does seem to be a marker! So is the telling of stories. I watched old time craftsmen work and tell stories as they did so. Some people are more alive, more present than others. |
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Post by Mighty Darci on Oct 17, 2016 15:35:11 GMT -5
It's called "play"/ Think of children playing, or remember yourself at play back when. In play theory we have open play and directed play. D&D is a mixture of both and adds another dimension in that the play can extend indefinitely in an ongoing and building conceptual environment that perforce can change its rules and laws like in open play. One cannot divorce serendipity from play, so if one does that you end up with hard fast rules and structure (a closed form) that constrains the properties being generated by open play (non-constrained imagination). This is what I alluded to above with the change from open to closed forms in RPGs and the philosophical divide that now exists, which is in essence linear vs. granular thought. Play is not linear; structured rules are. This is D&D's greatest achievement in that we have two systems cooperating as one. And there you have the essence of my upcoming book on Arneson due out in approximately 2 months. Serendipity - what an excellent word! Very apt for open play! |
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Post by hengest on Oct 17, 2016 15:41:25 GMT -5
Reading does seem to be a marker! So is the telling of stories. I watched old time craftsmen work and tell stories as they did so. Some people are more alive, more present than others. Can I ask what kind of craftsmen at what kind of work? |
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Post by Mighty Darci on Oct 17, 2016 15:47:08 GMT -5
Reading does seem to be a marker! So is the telling of stories. I watched old time craftsmen work and tell stories as they did so. Some people are more alive, more present than others. Can I ask what kind of craftsmen at what kind of work? I have watched a man making harness for a horse for a rich man for a very expensive horse. It was in a very humble little shop with old equipment and tools, and yet people would come to him instead of to a more modern harness maker because of his quality workmanship. I have watched the same man make saddles, bridles, saddle bags and other things. Just to reference one craftsman. I have watched others. |
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Post by hengest on Oct 17, 2016 15:53:12 GMT -5
I have watched a man making harness for a horse for a rich man for a very expensive horse. It was in a very humble little shop with old equipment and tools, and yet people would come to him instead of to a more modern harness maker because of his quality workmanship. I have watched the same man make saddles, bridles, saddle bags and other things. Just to reference one craftsman. I have watched others. This kind of thing is literally entrancing. Seeing someone at any kind of work they have mastered can be amazing, as you've said -- DMing, making physical objects, other things. It is most unfortunate that fluff with its apparent instant rewards is promoted over quality in so many areas of activity. The best we can do, I guess, is work with what we have and remember Gandalf's words: "Other evils there are that may come; for Sauron is himself but a servant or emissary. Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succor of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule." |
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Post by Mighty Darci on Oct 17, 2016 15:54:52 GMT -5
That was well spoken! By you and by Gandalf (Tolkien).
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Post by robkuntz on Oct 17, 2016 16:07:24 GMT -5
Can I ask what kind of craftsmen at what kind of work? I have watched a man making harness for a horse for a rich man for a very expensive horse. It was in a very humble little shop with old equipment and tools, and yet people would come to him instead of to a more modern harness maker because of his quality workmanship. I have watched the same man make saddles, bridles, saddle bags and other things. Just to reference one craftsman. I have watched others. It is also interesting and a historical fact that most craftsmen are story tellers, this as derived from European history, and I am sure that tradition carried over to their American counterparts. |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Oct 17, 2016 16:56:32 GMT -5
I now wonder if the very word "kibbutz" has become nearly extinct. It seemed the best word for what became "hacking."
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Post by robkuntz on Oct 17, 2016 17:11:53 GMT -5
I now wonder if the very word "kibbutz" has become nearly extinct. It seemed the best word for what became "hacking." You are a mensch, Mr. Lizard... |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Oct 17, 2016 18:16:20 GMT -5
I now wonder if the very word "kibbutz" has become nearly extinct. It seemed the best word for what became "hacking." You are a mensch, Mr. Lizard... Only if Thurl Ravenscroft sings it. |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Oct 17, 2016 18:18:01 GMT -5
I now wonder if the very word "kibbutz" has become nearly extinct. It seemed the best word for what became "hacking." Argh! How did I misspell "kibbitz" anywhow? |
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Oct 20, 2016 14:15:17 GMT -5
The circle of people that I associate with off the internet consists entirely of people who you can "riffs" with as you call it. I don't associate with people who lack the capacity and/or the willingness to do so. One of the privileges of age.
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Post by hengest on Oct 20, 2016 14:30:05 GMT -5
The circle of people that I associate with off the internet consists entirely of people who you can "riffs" with as you call it. I don't associate with people who lack the capacity and/or the willingness to do so. One of the privileges of age. I didn't really know what to call it. Does anyone else use or even know of a good name for it? I didn't even think to call it anything until I realized that it was sometimes absent. I guess the closest thing to a name I heard for it in actual use was the very broad term of "joking around" or "talking". |
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Oct 20, 2016 14:31:59 GMT -5
The circle of people that I associate with off the internet consists entirely of people who you can "riffs" with as you call it. I don't associate with people who lack the capacity and/or the willingness to do so. One of the privileges of age. I didn't really know what to call it. Does anyone else use or even know of a good name for it? I didn't even think to call it anything until I realized that it was sometimes absent. I guess the closest thing to a name I heard for it in actual use was the very broad term of "joking around" or "talking". I call it friendship. IMO if your relationships are not like that they are not friendships, they are acquaintances. That is my take on it. YMMV |
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Post by hengest on Oct 20, 2016 14:40:41 GMT -5
I suppose a like is enough, but I must say, I appreciate Crimhthan The Great's last couple posts here a lot. |
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Oct 20, 2016 14:43:09 GMT -5
I suppose a like is enough, but I must say, I appreciate Crimhthan The Great 's last couple posts here a lot. Thank you! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2016 23:44:26 GMT -5
I have indeed observed it. I don't think it has anything to do with national boundaries; I've encountered plenty of very intelligent people who just don't do that sort of thing.
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Post by tetramorph on Oct 21, 2016 15:23:03 GMT -5
hengest, I've been following along as best I could during my "off the grid week." Won't be fully back around until after Monday sometime. But I've got to say, no, I don't think I know what you are talking about. As far as I can tell, at least in your OP, you are just talking about conversation. I find it hard to believe that we are the only culture that engages in conversation. Maybe I only have conversations with people who do this thing that you are talking about. Could you describe better what you mean, perhaps presenting a few examples? Perhaps contrast it with your experiences with people who cannot or won't do this thing you are talking about? Sorry, I am trying to follow.
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Post by hengest on Oct 21, 2016 16:02:07 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply, tetramorph. Let me clarify one thing and then I will try to describe the topic in more detail. Clarification: certainly I wasn't suggesting that we were the only culture that had conversations. Just wondering if this thing is at all special or not universal, occurs more often in certain subcultures, is more a lingua franca in some countries, etc. So, what is the thing? I can't even come up with an imitation. Can't do it solo. But a little more description: You are sitting with two or three friends. Someone generates a thought about a situation that could arise ("if Max came over and wanted to play Pathfinder", "it turned out there were possums living in the toilet tank"). Someone elaborates it or introduces a change ("I'm sure he would have us all wear blindfolds so we aren't influenced by our die rolls", "Not in the toilet tank, in the septic tank is more likely"). These are often motivated by some known feature of the kind of situation, a characteristic of the person involved, or adjustment for more or less verisimilitude. Then this snowballs, with various parties adjusting and expanding the "imagined" situation for enhanced fascination, humor, or to illustrate some point. This goes on until it transforms into something else or it's time to fix supper or whatever. Make any sense? Edit: Whoops. Forgot the contrast. Well...apparently some people, even close friends, mostly do what I would consider small talk OR look for comfort or solidarity regarding difficult or annoyimg things in their lives. |
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Post by Mighty Darci on Oct 21, 2016 16:05:38 GMT -5
I would describe it as a cross between brainstorming (where all ideas are valid and no judgments are made at this point) and free word association (but not limited to words).
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