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Post by Admin Pete on Oct 13, 2016 12:53:15 GMT -5
See this blog post here, the first of a series. From the The Disoriented Ranger.I am curious as to how much of this resonates with the DMs on the forum. Bitd with my first group that I played every week during the school year for four years, I did not encounter any of what is the this essay. Of course there were no published settings, no personal computer and a lot of the other things mentioned in the article so the environment was different. Some parts do resonate currently and I may comment later on some of those things. Right now I am looking for your thoughts. (I will say that I don't use plots and a player action can not destroy the reason for my game, if the story is created through play instead of being in place and the players need to cooperate with a story it solves a lot of problems IMO.) Edit: Fixed the link! |
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Post by robkuntz on Oct 13, 2016 13:17:13 GMT -5
See this blog post here, the first of a series. From the The Disoriented Ranger.I am curious as to how much of this resonates with the DMs on the forum. Bitd with my first group that I played every week during the school year for four years, I did not encounter any of what is the this essay. Of course there were no published settings, no personal computer and a lot of the other things mentioned in the article so the environment was different. Some parts do resonate currently and I may comment later on some of those things. Right now I am looking for your thoughts. (I will say that I don't use plots and a player action can not destroy the reason for my game, if the story is created through play instead of being in place and the players need to cooperate with a story it solves a lot of problems IMO.) Much ado about nothing. For Pete's sake, grab some pencils and some paper, create a map, put in minimal story boosts, get some dice and start playing. All of this "introspective" science of what and how and when and why is utterly boring. If you've got an imagination, let it loose, don't cripple it with over-analyzation as this author does. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Oct 13, 2016 15:04:41 GMT -5
See this blog post here, the first of a series. From the The Disoriented Ranger.I am curious as to how much of this resonates with the DMs on the forum. Bitd with my first group that I played every week during the school year for four years, I did not encounter any of what is the this essay. Of course there were no published settings, no personal computer and a lot of the other things mentioned in the article so the environment was different. Some parts do resonate currently and I may comment later on some of those things. Right now I am looking for your thoughts. (I will say that I don't use plots and a player action can not destroy the reason for my game, if the story is created through play instead of being in place and the players need to cooperate with a story it solves a lot of problems IMO.) Much ado about nothing. For Pete's sake, grab some pencils and some paper, create a map, put in minimal story boosts, get some dice and start playing. All of this "introspective" science of what and how and when and why is utterly boring. If you've got an imagination, let it loose, don't cripple it with over-analyzation as this author does. The only part that I really get is this, bitd everybody showed up for every game (of course we were all college students in proximity and no TV, no Internet and in a small town precious little of anything else), now there are so many other things going on that I normally have about 5 out of 8 that show up and only 1 or 2 are constants game in and game out. The other 6 or 7 don't make every game. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Oct 13, 2016 15:36:10 GMT -5
Another blog in a post here responds to the first link above. Some Thoughts on The Sad GMThis post has a lot of factual errors, the most egregious of which is that he says that the Dave Arneson style of play came after (instead of before) the Gygax style of play and then he badly misrepresents the Arneson style of play, because the people that he claims are playing like Arneson are playing nothing like Arneson at all as best I can tell. |
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Post by robkuntz on Oct 13, 2016 15:50:52 GMT -5
Much ado about nothing. For Pete's sake, grab some pencils and some paper, create a map, put in minimal story boosts, get some dice and start playing. All of this "introspective" science of what and how and when and why is utterly boring. If you've got an imagination, let it loose, don't cripple it with over-analyzation as this author does. The only part that I really get is this, bitd everybody showed up for every game (of course we were all college students in proximity and no TV, no Internet and in a small town precious little of anything else), now there are so many other things going on that I normally have about 5 out of 8 that show up and only 1 or 2 are constants game in and game out. The other 6 or 7 don't make every game. Whoever showed up in LG played. Didn't have to be a "party". Imagination works with 1 or more players.  |
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Post by robkuntz on Oct 13, 2016 15:54:52 GMT -5
Another blog in a post here responds to the first link above. Some Thoughts on The Sad GMThis post has a lot of factual errors, the most egregious of which is that he says that the Dave Arneson style of play came after (instead of before) the Gygax style of play and then he badly misrepresents the Arneson style of play, because the people that he claims are playing like Arneson are playing nothing like Arneson at all as best I can tell. Just more Internet Noise. Those in the know pass it by. Those who don't know become as ignorant as the author if they then rinse and repeat. Too many know-it-alls these days with too much time on their hands and a need to impress in the moment. They are legion. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Oct 13, 2016 16:11:48 GMT -5
The only part that I really get is this, bitd everybody showed up for every game (of course we were all college students in proximity and no TV, no Internet and in a small town precious little of anything else), now there are so many other things going on that I normally have about 5 out of 8 that show up and only 1 or 2 are constants game in and game out. The other 6 or 7 don't make every game. Whoever showed up in LG played. Didn't have to be a "party". Imagination works with 1 or more players. Oh, I agree, if I have at least one player the game is on. |
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Post by tetramorph on Oct 13, 2016 18:47:53 GMT -5
Admin Pete, I play 0e just exactly so that I do not have to worry about having anything like this kind of experience. I couldn't read the whole post. If I wanted to help the guy, I would send him the LBBs and say: enjoy your ticket to freedom.
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Post by hengest on Oct 14, 2016 8:33:55 GMT -5
Send him the LBBs or even sit down with him for five minutes and help him to see that he could probably come up with a system and the kernel of a setting in an hour that would be simpler, freer, and more fun than any of what was described here. Not to mention any one of many pretty modular clones that are plenty to start with, then adjust and swap as you care to. And of course this guy knows all that.
The detail that made me really nutty was the class stuff. It is so fun to play a character and watch him / her become unique in some ways (assuming survival). My biggest complaint about the proliferation of classes is that (in my opinion and in the apparent opinion of some who choose to play this way) it ain't fun. It tries to codify and front-load that slow fun of interacting with the other players verbally and through the system...so you start off with a "precious snowflake". Then what? Of course more ego-stroking, princess-stabbing, whatever. In for a penny, in for a pound. If you start off with ego-stroking (choosing the system for its consumer-ego-boost, going nuts on accommodating desire for various classes), of course you'll continue on that path.
I have to go, but may post again.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2016 10:32:54 GMT -5
Didn't get past the first paragraph. Maybe I'll go back later.
The basic assumption is wrong ... "people are separated."
I have lost count of the number of gaming forums where people bellyache about how impossible it is to get people together for games.
Horsemanure.
There are a myriad of hobby activities... golf, bowling, recreational softball, model railroad operations (where you have a timetable and run trains), book clubs, etc, etc, etc, where people can and do meet at a fixed time and place, on time.
Maybe the problem isn't electronics, or gaming. Maybe the problem is inconsiderate people.
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Post by hengest on Oct 14, 2016 10:51:50 GMT -5
1) I can't find it again, but I think it was once on this site -- something about how a ceramic mug is only known by being used and (eventually) broken. Same seems true of characters. You get to know them by playing them and (eventually) getting them killed, or maybe maybe retired once in a great while. The below comment is mildly off-topic but I think it is analogous enough to certain trends in gaming that I'm posting it. If anybody thinks I am wildly off-base here, I admit that I may be... 2) This whole phenomenon reminds me of what I have seen in language education, starting by the middle of the 20th century (at the latest) and really getting going in the last 40 years (I didn't witness most of this personally). It has been declared by certain vocal parties that "the purpose of language is to communicate" and that therefore their prescriptions will go under the name of "the communicative method" and will not be questioned. This was sold successfully because it looked positive, easy, low-investment. The teacher or the technology will "do everything" -- the record plays the sentences for you, the overhead projector projects, the CD holds so much audio, the website has 'everything you need', the test is self-grading...what could be simpler? "Just speak it." And the result now is a system of language education in which students are told to do what they have not been prepared to do ( just speak it) while an arcane web of instructional fads, teachers who are themselves the victims of such education, and overwhelmingly many accoutrements prevents the students from doing what many of them would actually like to do ( just learn it). It really reminds me of the rule-bloat and the ever-decreasing fun in certain circles. Somehow, all these things that it was claimed would save time...end up taking a whole lot of time and effort and leaving you with nothing to show for it. *I know there may be people on this board involved in education, and I in no way intend the above remarks to be a blanket smear of people in that field -- or a smear of anyone. I have been there myself and have often done poorly where I might have done better. What I mean to suggest above is a similarity between what recent decades have seen in RPGs and in the one part of education I know a little about -- languages. There are even now many dedicated people working for the benefit of their students. In my opinion, however, most of their work-energy is dissipated into activities that actually prevent them from teaching. So, it seems, is the situation described in the post that Admin Pete linked to. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Oct 14, 2016 11:24:46 GMT -5
Didn't get past the first paragraph. Maybe I'll go back later. The basic assumption is wrong ... "people are separated." I have lost count of the number of gaming forums where people bellyache about how impossible it is to get people together for games. Horsemanure. There are a myriad of hobby activities... golf, bowling, recreational softball, model railroad operations (where you have a timetable and run trains), book clubs, etc, etc, etc, where people can and do meet at a fixed time and place, on time. Maybe the problem isn't electronics, or gaming. Maybe the problem is inconsiderate people. I think you have hit the nail on the head, I see it in all activities at work and at play, not just limited to rpgs. |
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Post by Mighty Darci on Oct 14, 2016 11:32:11 GMT -5
Both links are very sad and what a shame to be so deluded into that mindset. Now this, this is good advice: Much ado about nothing. For Pete's sake, grab some pencils and some paper, create a map, put in minimal story boosts, get some dice and start playing. All of this "introspective" science of what and how and when and why is utterly boring. If you've got an imagination, let it loose, don't cripple it with over-analyzation as this author does. |
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Post by hengest on Oct 14, 2016 12:27:39 GMT -5
Agree with robkuntz and Mighty Darci above, but it seems to me there are a lot of dedicated people who just can't do what Rob described. Why? Is it the feeling that RPGs need to compete with blockbuster movies on their own terms? A sense that every campaign should be a new Middle-Earth, the life's work of the DM? If you're not living up to the superficial gloss of professional / corporate product, your players won't have fun? I'd guess all those things contribute. Plus, these days, many people were trained by DMs who never had the experience of tampering with / rewriting an OD&D or even Classic ruleset...are many gamer-generations away from anything like what happened at LG and also generations away from the days of no-Internet-no-clubs-just-bought-this-cool-stuff-and-now-we're-going-to-do-it. In other words, I think the "For Pete's sake, grab some pencils and some paper, create a map, put in minimal story boosts, get some dice and start playing" advice from Rob or like-minded people can fall on many ears and cause...something like what The Disoriented Ranger described. |
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Post by robkuntz on Oct 14, 2016 16:47:33 GMT -5
Agree with robkuntz and Mighty Darci above, but it seems to me there are a lot of dedicated people who just can't do what Rob described. Why? Is it the feeling that RPGs need to compete with blockbuster movies on their own terms? A sense that every campaign should be a new Middle-Earth, the life's work of the DM? If you're not living up to the superficial gloss of professional / corporate product, your players won't have fun? I'd guess all those things contribute. Plus, these days, many people were trained by DMs who never had the experience of tampering with / rewriting an OD&D or even Classic ruleset...are many gamer-generations away from anything like what happened at LG and also generations away from the days of no-Internet-no-clubs-just-bought-this-cool-stuff-and-now-we're-going-to-do-it. In other words, I think the "For Pete's sake, grab some pencils and some paper, create a map, put in minimal story boosts, get some dice and start playing" advice from Rob or like-minded people can fall on many ears and cause...something like what The Disoriented Ranger described. In reality there's just too much "straining at the gnat." Shrug. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Oct 15, 2016 8:25:00 GMT -5
Aggrieved soul: I'm hurtin' here; somebody please help!
Wise Men: Your hurtin' isn't valid; look away everyone...
World: A better place?
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Post by tetramorph on Oct 15, 2016 8:49:00 GMT -5
Aggrieved soul: I'm hurtin' here; somebody please help! Wise Men: Your hurtin' isn't valid; look away everyone... World: A better place? Fair enough, ways, I get your point. But in our defense I don't think anyone here is trying, truly, to dismiss the man. We are just shocked by the problem itself. Of course, if any of us had a chance to meet this guy we would say: come play with us a bit. Have you heard about OS play? Ever looked at or learned about the original rules? Etc. Sorry if my own response came across as flip or dismissive. That wasn't my point. |
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Post by robkuntz on Oct 15, 2016 10:01:07 GMT -5
Aggrieved soul: I'm hurtin' here; somebody please help! Wise Men: Your hurtin' isn't valid; look away everyone... World: A better place? One cannot help a person who has dismissed their options by consigning themselves to a certain POV. I don't argue with self-constructed walls. That is why my suggestion was short and sweet, 1/10th of what his despondency was. If you can't get to the opposite pole of simplicity from complicated, tough luck Charlie, might want to rewire and try later. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Oct 15, 2016 11:16:31 GMT -5
Aggrieved soul: I'm hurtin' here; somebody please help! Wise Men: Your hurtin' isn't valid; look away everyone... World: A better place? The aggreived soul answers his own question at the beginning of the essay: The problem lies in the fact that he doesn't seem to recognize that he failed to refrain from doing something else. He in the essay lays out that he abandoned: His biggest problem as laid out in the is that he stoped doing what he knows is the right thing. When a player steps up and kills the princess as his first act, it clearly means you are not playing with a friend that anyone wants to have as a friend and two he is clearly talking about putting the players on his own personal railroad and expecting them to follow it perfectly. So we are not saying that his pain is not valid. What I am saying is that your pain is valid and you confessed that it is of your own making. Therefore IMO robkuntz advice is correct - go back to your roots and get your fun back. I do get it, if you spend a lot of time creating something you want it to be appreciated. I currently do not have any players that are purely old school, only part of the time do they what I would do, only one communicates well between games (currently my youngest player), the blind spots they have that really good smart players would not have are huge. And yet these are smart people, they have jobs, but as was pointed out above they can be inconsiderate. Over the last seven years, I have had a high of 13 players and an average of 5-6 per game. I have had three games where only one player showed up and I ran a solo adventure for that game. In July, my youngest player (22) was the only one to show and I ran a solo adventure for her. Since she was the only one there I gave her commentary and after each encounter, I broke it down for her showing her more options in decisions she could have made, telling her what I would have done and why. She told me that it was the most fun she had ever had and that she now understood a lot more of how OD&D works. She is the only person in the current game that wanted to read the rules and really wants to understand how you play old school. I think the rest keep coming because they never know what is going to happen and they keep looking for rails and there are none, but they enjoy the search. Their play is slowly but surely changing away from new school and taking on more elements of old school each game we play. The difference for me is that I create a lot of things and if they don't go that direction, it is still there and while things change they may go there and find those things plus changes at some future time. I think some of my players deliberately - like the guy who killed the princess - try to go off the map and try to break the game. But they are always doomed to fail in that regard because I improvise - I wing it and you can't reach any off the map place because I can create new map faster than they can explore it and they can't break it because it is a living world not some static thing that can be messed up by the wrong player decision. It is like the real world in that regard - messy happens and everyone gets to deal with the mess. So yeah, the advice is stop doing what is not working and go back to what did work and still does. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2016 12:18:22 GMT -5
Aggrieved soul: I'm hurtin' here; somebody please help! Wise Men: Your hurtin' isn't valid; look away everyone... World: A better place? Aggrieved soul: Doctor, it hurts when I do this! Wise Men: Okay, don't do that! World: Better place! |
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Post by robkuntz on Oct 15, 2016 12:23:49 GMT -5
The DM should have no expectations except what the players forward. This is where pre-made adventures, that are scripted and more often are played according to the script, or forced POV's in a world environment, conflict with player needs and wants. If a DM gets stuck in that cycle of expecting to detail everything and after such investment, expecting his or her players to invest in it likewise, they will normally be in for a disappointment one way or the other. Once you make that huge investment of time and sometimes money, up front, it will become disappointing for you or the players as they take twists and turns through an otherwise open play environ, especially if the DM attempts to overtly route them to his creations due to that inittial investment. Keep it general and move to specifics as the game play allows, or become detached from such matter as just part of world crafting routine that, as PD notes, will sooner or later be discovered.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2016 12:24:49 GMT -5
Okay, I have read half of part 1, up to "stab the princess in the face."
All I have to say is "waah, waah, waah." If you let yourself be a doormat, you have nobody to blame but yourself if people wipe your feet on you. There are a dozen places where "Sad DM" should have said "NO!" BEFORE the stabbing of the princess. And when that happened, the correct response is "The game is over. Get out of my house."
Not gaming is better than bad gaming. The 'Sad DM' permitted the train wreck to happen. I award no sympathy.
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Post by robkuntz on Oct 15, 2016 12:26:43 GMT -5
Okay, I have read half of part 1, up to "stab the princess in the face." All I have to say is "waah, waah, waah." If you let yourself be a doormat, you have nobody to blame but yourself if people wipe your feet on you. There are a dozen places where "Sad DM" should have said "NO!" BEFORE the stabbing of the princess. And when that happened, the correct response is "The game is over. Get out of my house." Not gaming is better than bad gaming. The 'Sad DM' permitted the train wreck to happen. I award no sympathy. The sad DM needs a safe space, not a pulpit. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2016 12:29:22 GMT -5
The DM should have no expectations except what the players forward. This is where pre-made adventures, that are scripted and more often are played according to the script, or forced POV's in a world environment, conflict with player needs and wants. If a DM gets stuck in that cycle of expecting to detail everything and after such investment, expecting his or her players to invest in it likewise, they will normally be in for a disappointment one way or the other. Once you make that huge investment of time and sometimes money, up front, it will become disappointing for you or the players as they take twists and turns through an otherwise open play environ, especially if the DM attempts to overtly route them to his creations due to that inittial investment. Keep it general and move to specifics as the game play allows, or become detached from such matter as just part of world crafting routine that, as PD notes, will sooner or later be discovered. Exactly. When I read "The campaign is about a delicate princess who needs protection," my immediate response was "Well, there's your FIRST mistake." The game is about what happens. Secondly, it's an old saying that "the key to success is careful management of expectations." The referee pitched his game and saw that people weren't enthusiastic. Sometimes that happens. Going ahead and running the game anyway when you don't have people excited about it is never going to end well. Either change your assumptions, sell the game better, or give up. Lastly, this guy wasn't interested in running a game, he wanted to create all kinds of stuff that people would admire. He'd be happier exhibiting stuff in the art show of a SF/fantasy convention. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2016 12:35:22 GMT -5
Okay, so Sad DM needs 1) to play with people who aren't jackasses, 2) play with people who will commit to a schedule and keep it, and 3) realize the first great truth of the Buddha.
Self pity is a particular unattractive state of mind, and the universe really doesn't care. Life is what you make of it, so grab the world by the nutsack and squeeze.
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Post by robkuntz on Oct 15, 2016 12:38:30 GMT -5
The DM should have no expectations except what the players forward. This is where pre-made adventures, that are scripted and more often are played according to the script, or forced POV's in a world environment, conflict with player needs and wants. If a DM gets stuck in that cycle of expecting to detail everything and after such investment, expecting his or her players to invest in it likewise, they will normally be in for a disappointment one way or the other. Once you make that huge investment of time and sometimes money, up front, it will become disappointing for you or the players as they take twists and turns through an otherwise open play environ, especially if the DM attempts to overtly route them to his creations due to that inittial investment. Keep it general and move to specifics as the game play allows, or become detached from such matter as just part of world crafting routine that, as PD notes, will sooner or later be discovered. Exactly. When I read "The campaign is about a delicate princess who needs protection," my immediate response was "Well, there's your FIRST mistake." The game is about what happens. Secondly, it's an old saying that "the key to success is careful management of expectations." The referee pitched his game and saw that people weren't enthusiastic. Sometimes that happens. Going ahead and running the game anyway when you don't have people excited about it is never going to end well. Either change your assumptions, sell the game better, or give up. Lastly, this guy wasn't interested in running a game, he wanted to create all kinds of stuff that people would admire. He'd be happier exhibiting stuff in the art show of a SF/fantasy convention. Yep. What a DM thinks is cool is not always what the players will see as cool or will want to do. He set his expectations according to what he thought they should do, the first No-No in a living and open world environment filled with infinite choice approached upon the ever changing road of player whim. |
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Post by robkuntz on Oct 15, 2016 12:50:34 GMT -5
The positive in this is that the Sad DM exposes what NOT to do as a DM.
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Post by tetramorph on Oct 15, 2016 13:30:12 GMT -5
I gotta agree with what folks have been adding. Before you play any game you need to learn how to be a healthy adult individual. You need to know how to navigate the difference between your own needs and wants and those of others. You need to set realistic expectations for yourself and you need to know how to set appropriate boundaries in appropriate ways. If you can't do that, if you don't have wisdom, then there are folks that can help you - professional and amateur. But you had better deal with that stuff before you try to play a game with other people. As to the non-human-relationship-navigation part of his post: The guy needs to learn the difference between fan-fiction and setting up a wargames campaign. But, then, that is the problem we are all noticing. And, in fact, the other seems to begin to notice. At least in part. The gaming "industry" has turned medieval fantasy wargames campaigning into fan-fiction with partial group narration. That other post you linked out to, Admin Pete, tries to address that. People's desires need to change. And you can only do that by providing a model. Desire is "mimetic." There's 2 more cp than previously given! |
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Post by Mighty Darci on Oct 15, 2016 18:08:30 GMT -5
Aggrieved soul: I'm hurtin' here; somebody please help! Wise Men: Your hurtin' isn't valid; look away everyone... World: A better place? Thank you waysoftheearth for posting this, because it brought out broader replies. I liked this one: Aggrieved soul: Doctor, it hurts when I do this! Wise Men: Okay, don't do that! World: Better place! Not because it was particularly helpful and not because it was intended to be funny. No I liked it because it is true and a good lesson for all parts of life. Don't keep doing things that are making you miserable. The other thing is that when you ask for help, you have to be ready to accept help. I am not sure the Sad DM has reached that point yet. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2016 19:47:02 GMT -5
Not because it was particularly helpful and not because it was intended to be funny. No I liked it because it is true and a good lesson for all parts of life. Don't keep doing things that are making you miserable. Thank you, cher demoiselle. And, stolen joke from Groucho Marx aside, that was indeed my point; don't do what you know makes you unhappy! Not gaming is better than bad gaming!!! |
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