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Post by mao on Jun 25, 2023 13:00:31 GMT -5
No and I will tell you why
By creating a sandbox world and dungeon the players are pointed in directions that are in fact a form of encounter based adventure. If you are using all tables , they are limited in their scope.
Unless you have a script, encounter based encounters still have a huge amount of freedom just by the nature of rpgs
I am not saying that that they are not styles of play. You just can't have one without the other
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Jun 25, 2023 14:52:14 GMT -5
Yes, but they can be mixed with great effect.
A sandbox world with dungeons and encounters is not a script but possibilities. The players may or may not go to that place. Whether or not you're using a limited number of tables or all of the tables available, there are going to be limits, even if you conjure it out of your imagination. The use of resources (tables, rulebooks, etc.) does not equate to a railroad. In a sandbox campaign, the path of the characters is wide open and doesn't have to go from A to B to C to etc. on down the line. Limited choice is still a choice.
You can definitely have one style of campaign - sandbox or railroad - without the other. You can also have campaigns that are a combination of the two or just use aspects of or touch upon the other style.
Some people get sandbox confused with gonzo. Sandbox doesn't mean every single choice is random and weird and everything under the sun is on the table.
I can have fun with gonzo. I've played Gamma World that way but I prefer it in a different style. Same goes with RIFTS.
I'll take sandbox over railroad any time.
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Post by simrion on Jun 25, 2023 18:56:23 GMT -5
Yes, but they can be mixed with great effect. A sandbox world with dungeons and encounters is not a script but possibilities. The players may or may not go to that place. Whether or not you're using a limited number of tables or all of the tables available, there are going to be limits, even if you conjure it out of your imagination. The use of resources (tables, rulebooks, etc.) does not equate to a railroad. In a sandbox campaign, the path of the characters is wide open and doesn't have to go from A to B to C to etc. on down the line. Limited choice is still a choice. You can definitely have one style of campaign - sandbox or railroad - without the other. You can also have campaigns that are a combination of the two or just use aspects of or touch upon the other style. Some people get sandbox confused with gonzo. Sandbox doesn't mean every single choice is random and weird and everything under the sun is on the table. I can have fun with gonzo. I've played Gamma World that way but I prefer it in a different style. Same goes with RIFTS. I'll take sandbox over railroad any time. My campaigns tend to be a mix of both. I like the sandbox for the unexpected, even encounters beyond the current capabilities of the party. By the same toke I will railroad them with thought out adventure hooks, or at least try ;-) |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jun 26, 2023 23:12:17 GMT -5
YMMV, but in my opinion, at least for me, they are mutually exclusive. I don't have a trace of a railroad in my campaigns, as I do everything I can to avoid even a whisper of a railroad. I offer the maximum amount of choice that I can muster and still be compatible with the world I created. There are not even gasoline engines, so no you cannot build a rocket ship. I try to give players as much freedom to go anywhere and do anything that I can. I have found that in a pbp it is impossible to completely recreate the face to face experience. Face to face the ideas flow like an inexhaustible river, I can't quite reach that without the players to react to.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jun 26, 2023 23:12:56 GMT -5
Yes, but they can be mixed with great effect. A sandbox world with dungeons and encounters is not a script but possibilities. The players may or may not go to that place. Whether or not you're using a limited number of tables or all of the tables available, there are going to be limits, even if you conjure it out of your imagination. The use of resources (tables, rulebooks, etc.) does not equate to a railroad. In a sandbox campaign, the path of the characters is wide open and doesn't have to go from A to B to C to etc. on down the line. Limited choice is still a choice. You can definitely have one style of campaign - sandbox or railroad - without the other. You can also have campaigns that are a combination of the two or just use aspects of or touch upon the other style. Some people get sandbox confused with gonzo. Sandbox doesn't mean every single choice is random and weird and everything under the sun is on the table. I can have fun with gonzo. I've played Gamma World that way but I prefer it in a different style. Same goes with RIFTS. I'll take sandbox over railroad any time. My campaigns tend to be a mix of both. I like the sandbox for the unexpected, even encounters beyond the current capabilities of the party. By the same toke I will railroad them with thought out adventure hooks, or at least try ;-)Adventure hooks are not railroading. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jun 26, 2023 23:22:11 GMT -5
No and I will tell you why By creating a sandbox world and dungeon the players are pointed in directions that are in fact a form of encounter based adventure. If you are using all tables , they are limited in their scope. Unless you have a script, encounter based encounters still have a huge amount of freedom just by the nature of rpgs I am not saying that that they are not styles of play. You just can't have one without the other I disagree, I think you are taking a limited view of the options available to players and I for one go way beyond the tables. Sandboxes have hooks, not pre-written (IMO) encounters. I create on the fly and depending on the choices the players make and what they say and do - each hook could lead down many different paths. If five different groups followed the same adventure hook with me, the hook could and likely will lead to five different adventures. So in my opinion you can have a sandbox with no railroads. |
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Post by simrion on Jun 27, 2023 5:09:51 GMT -5
My campaigns tend to be a mix of both. I like the sandbox for the unexpected, even encounters beyond the current capabilities of the party. By the same toke I will railroad them with thought out adventure hooks, or at least try ;-)Adventure hooks are not railroading. True for the most part. Sadly my players sometimes require hand holding just to get them to go somewhere LOL |
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Post by hengest on Jun 27, 2023 10:08:58 GMT -5
I agree with PD and SRG that you can have a sandbox with no railroads.
I don't think the bare fact of "there are limitations" is a railroad. Yeah, there are limitations, that doesn't mean there isn't total freedom within the world that is presented.
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Post by mao on Jun 27, 2023 21:16:14 GMT -5
I agree with PD and SRG that you can have a sandbox with no railroads. I don't think the bare fact of "there are limitations" is a railroad. Yeah, there are limitations, that doesn't mean there isn't total freedom within the world that is presented. The act of placing monsters and the nature of dungeons is railroading. Even if you use tables, the limitation of the table is railroading |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jun 28, 2023 2:02:59 GMT -5
Adventure hooks are not railroading. True for the most part. Sadly my players sometimes require hand holding just to get them to go somewhere LOL Sadly these days the initiative and curiosity that were once common are now rare. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jun 28, 2023 2:09:50 GMT -5
I agree with PD and SRG that you can have a sandbox with no railroads. I don't think the bare fact of "there are limitations" is a railroad. Yeah, there are limitations, that doesn't mean there isn't total freedom within the world that is presented. The act of placing monsters and the nature of dungeons is railroading. Even if you use tables, the limitation of the table is railroading Again I completely disagree with you. Linear dungeons are railroads, but IMO a good dungeon is not linear in design, but is very open-ended and railroad free. A good dungeon has multiple ingress and egress points, multiple connections between levels and dead-ends are few and far between (and IMO fairly obvious). You can design dungeons that are not an A to B to C to D to etc design. I also completely disagree that using tables means you are railroading. Railroading is the referee using to allow player agency to a greater or lessor degree. You are no obligated to take meaningful choices away from the players. Placing monsters in a dungeon does not make it a railroad if they have the choice of saying, "Let's see what's over that hill and forget about the dungeon." |
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Jun 28, 2023 10:55:23 GMT -5
I agree with PD and SRG that you can have a sandbox with no railroads. I don't think the bare fact of "there are limitations" is a railroad. Yeah, there are limitations, that doesn't mean there isn't total freedom within the world that is presented. The act of placing monsters and the nature of dungeons is railroading. Even if you use tables, the limitation of the table is railroading Not in the least. That is fleshing out the world and providing opportunities. I believe you're confusing gonzo (in this case, "anything goes") with sandbox. A sandbox does not mean infinite choices. A sandbox gives choices, and the decisions of the players impacts the game and how it flows. Simply using only the options available in the official books is not railroading in and of itself. Even though a sandbox offers choices, that doesn't mean that a Western themed sandbox must allow mechs, Martians, and Colonel Sanders to be available options or it's automatically a railroad. That's not how that works. Arduin is considered one of the most sandbox type of campaign available, but would Arduin then be considered a railroad if you only used the official Arduin material? No, it would not. Railroading is not giving any player agency whatsoever or limiting it so much that you might as well be doing paint by the numbers. Railroading is a strict script that MUST be followed. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jun 28, 2023 14:29:28 GMT -5
The act of placing monsters and the nature of dungeons is railroading. Even if you use tables, the limitation of the table is railroading Not in the least. That is fleshing out the world and providing opportunities. I believe you're confusing gonzo (in this case, "anything goes") with sandbox. A sandbox does not mean infinite choices. A sandbox is about A sandbox gives choices and the decisions of the players impacts the game and how it flows. Simply using only the options available in the official books is not railroading in and of itself. Even though a sandbox offers choices, that doesn't mean that a Western themed sandbox must allow mechs, Martians, and Colonel Sanders to be available options or it's automatically a railroad. That's not how that works. Arduin is considered one of the most sandbox type of campaign available, but would Arduin then be considered a railroad if you only used the official Arduin material? No, it would not. Railroading is not giving any player agency whatsoever or limiting it so much that you might as well be doing paint by the numbers. Railroading is a strict script that MUST be followed. Have an Exalt!! Good detailed explanation. |
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Jun 28, 2023 17:14:09 GMT -5
Not in the least. That is fleshing out the world and providing opportunities. I believe you're confusing gonzo (in this case, "anything goes") with sandbox. A sandbox does not mean infinite choices. A sandbox is about A sandbox gives choices and the decisions of the players impacts the game and how it flows. Simply using only the options available in the official books is not railroading in and of itself. Even though a sandbox offers choices, that doesn't mean that a Western themed sandbox must allow mechs, Martians, and Colonel Sanders to be available options or it's automatically a railroad. That's not how that works. Arduin is considered one of the most sandbox type of campaign available, but would Arduin then be considered a railroad if you only used the official Arduin material? No, it would not. Railroading is not giving any player agency whatsoever or limiting it so much that you might as well be doing paint by the numbers. Railroading is a strict script that MUST be followed. Have an Exalt!! Good detailed explanation. Thank you, The Perilous Dreamer! Much appreciated!! |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jun 29, 2023 2:30:59 GMT -5
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Post by hengest on Jul 14, 2023 13:33:03 GMT -5
I agree with PD and SRG that you can have a sandbox with no railroads. I don't think the bare fact of "there are limitations" is a railroad. Yeah, there are limitations, that doesn't mean there isn't total freedom within the world that is presented. The act of placing monsters and the nature of dungeons is railroading. Even if you use tables, the limitation of the table is railroading Seems to be that by this thinking, any kind of worldbuilding would be railroading because the PCs have to exist within the world, causes precede effects, and so on. I agree with SRG that railroading is a term for a strict script that cannot be abandoned or altered. As (I think) PD said to me once on here, a single-minded NPC does not make a railroad. It just means some people are single-minded. The players can still do what they wish. |
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Post by simrion on Jul 14, 2023 17:48:05 GMT -5
The act of placing monsters and the nature of dungeons is railroading. Even if you use tables, the limitation of the table is railroading Seems to be that by this thinking, any kind of worldbuilding would be railroading because the PCs have to exist within the world, causes precede effects, and so on. I agree with SRG that railroading is a term for a strict script that cannot be abandoned or altered. As (I think) PD said to me once on here, a single-minded NPC does not make a railroad. It just means some people are single-minded. The players can still do what they wish. IIRC the DragonLance Modules were ultimate railroads, meant to be played in a specific way to advance a story. They did not leave much in the way of flexibility for the unexpected or to allow characters wandering off on tangents. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jul 18, 2023 12:13:08 GMT -5
Also to be fair, mao is the self-described King of the Railroads and as such that is the lens he sees things through. |
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Post by muddywater on Mar 28, 2024 0:07:47 GMT -5
I agree with PD and SRG that you can have a sandbox with no railroads. I don't think the bare fact of "there are limitations" is a railroad. Yeah, there are limitations, that doesn't mean there isn't total freedom within the world that is presented. The act of placing monsters and the nature of dungeons is railroading. Even if you use tables, the limitation of the table is railroading So to not railroad you have no monsters? Really? Wow, that is a messed up view. |
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Post by muddywater on Mar 28, 2024 0:09:02 GMT -5
Also to be fair, mao is the self-described King of the Railroads and as such that is the lens he sees things through. So if you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail. |
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Post by hengest on Mar 28, 2024 14:01:14 GMT -5
I agree with PD and SRG that you can have a sandbox with no railroads. I don't think the bare fact of "there are limitations" is a railroad. Yeah, there are limitations, that doesn't mean there isn't total freedom within the world that is presented. The act of placing monsters and the nature of dungeons is railroading. Even if you use tables, the limitation of the table is railroading I get what you're saying here, but I still think "railroad" should be used to mean "a pretty strict script," not "anything at all defined by the ref." If monsters are railroading, why isn't having an empty field railroading? |
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Post by muddywater on Mar 28, 2024 14:03:59 GMT -5
The act of placing monsters and the nature of dungeons is railroading. Even if you use tables, the limitation of the table is railroading I get what you're saying here, but I still think "railroad" should be used to mean "a pretty strict script," not "anything at all defined by the ref." If monsters are railroading, why isn't having an empty field railroading? In its strictest sense a railroad is when players are being forced into decisions they don't agree with against their will, things they would never or don't want to voluntarily do. |
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Post by mao on Mar 28, 2024 15:13:30 GMT -5
The act of placing monsters and the nature of dungeons is railroading. Even if you use tables, the limitation of the table is railroading I get what you're saying here, but I still think "railroad" should be used to mean "a pretty strict script," not "anything at all defined by the ref." If monsters are railroading, why isn't having an empty field railroading? it could be |
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Post by muddywater on Mar 28, 2024 15:30:35 GMT -5
I get what you're saying here, but I still think "railroad" should be used to mean "a pretty strict script," not "anything at all defined by the ref." If monsters are railroading, why isn't having an empty field railroading? it could be Whatever you're smoking must be stronger than you can handle.  |
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Post by hengest on Mar 28, 2024 16:35:22 GMT -5
I get what you're saying here, but I still think "railroad" should be used to mean "a pretty strict script," not "anything at all defined by the ref." If monsters are railroading, why isn't having an empty field railroading? it could be I appreciate your dedication to your thesis, mao |
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Post by muddywater on Mar 28, 2024 16:49:32 GMT -5
I appreciate your dedication to your thesis, mao He is following a time honored tradition, when you are wrong, everyone knows you are wrong and you know you are wrong, then keep doubling down over and over. |
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Post by mao on Mar 28, 2024 17:13:10 GMT -5
I appreciate your dedication to your thesis, mao He is following a time honored tradition, when you are wrong, everyone knows you are wrong and you know you are wrong, then keep doubling down over and over. not at all, I just see gray |
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Post by muddywater on Mar 28, 2024 17:16:27 GMT -5
He is following a time honored tradition, when you are wrong, everyone knows you are wrong and you know you are wrong, then keep doubling down over and over. not at all, I just see gray What is gray about being confused about a basic principle? |
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Post by mao on Mar 29, 2024 7:03:36 GMT -5
not at all, I just see gray What is gray about being confused about a basic principle? I guess it's my philosophy background to think about things |
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Mar 29, 2024 7:32:49 GMT -5
I agree with PD and SRG that you can have a sandbox with no railroads. I don't think the bare fact of "there are limitations" is a railroad. Yeah, there are limitations, that doesn't mean there isn't total freedom within the world that is presented. The act of placing monsters and the nature of dungeons is railroading. Even if you use tables, the limitation of the table is railroading No, no, and no again. That is a very limited view that you have placed upon yourself. The tables are for randomization. Limitations do not equate to a railroad. A railroad is placing YOUR limitations as a referee on the players and their choices. For example, if your players are going through a forest and you want them to from West to East you have two basic options. You can let them meander through the forest looking for clues and ideas on where to go. They could go North for a while, turn East for a while, go North, East, South, East, etc. until they reach the other side. A railroad might give the illusion of choice but there would be no choice at all because every time the players wanted to go a different direction than East they would be cut off by a never-ending wall reach into the sky to your North, a bottomless trench to their South. THAT is a railroad. Using a structure of some sort - castle, dungeon, house, etc. - is not a railroad, either. That's just the limitations of the structure. When you walk from the bedroom to the kitchen in your house is that a railroad? |
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