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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Mar 29, 2024 7:36:22 GMT -5
Also to be fair, mao is the self-described King of the Railroads and as such that is the lens he sees things through.  |
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Mar 29, 2024 7:41:01 GMT -5
not at all, I just see gray What is gray about being confused about a basic principle? Nothing. |
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Post by mao on Mar 29, 2024 7:49:17 GMT -5
The act of placing monsters and the nature of dungeons is railroading. Even if you use tables, the limitation of the table is railroading No, no, and no again. That is a very limited view that you have placed upon yourself. The tables are for randomization. Limitations do not equate to a railroad. A railroad is placing YOUR limitations as a referee on the players and their choices. For example, if your players are going through a forest and you want them to from West to East you have two basic options. You can let them meander through the forest looking for clues and ideas on where to go. They could go North for a while, turn East for a while, go North, East, South, East, etc. until they reach the other side. A railroad might give the illusion of choice but there would be no choice at all because every time the players wanted to go a different direction than East they would be cut off by a never-ending wall reach into the sky to your North, a bottomless trench to their South. THAT is a railroad. Using a structure of some sort - castle, dungeon, house, etc. - is not a railroad, either. That's just the limitations of the structure. When you walk from the bedroom to the kitchen in your house is that a railroad? agree to disagree. |
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Mar 29, 2024 8:03:32 GMT -5
I appreciate your dedication to your thesis, mao He is following a time honored tradition, when you are wrong, everyone knows you are wrong and you know you are wrong, then keep doubling down over and over. You're right, muddywater. It's just like when someone says, "that's my opinion" and thinks that covers their flawed argument. Believe it not folks, but your opinion can be faulty or wrong if it's based on misinformation. I'm going to try to bow out of this thread - for the time being at least - because it is devolving into nothing but doubling down without worthwhile contribution to the discussion at hand. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Mar 29, 2024 14:10:41 GMT -5
The act of placing monsters and the nature of dungeons is railroading. Even if you use tables, the limitation of the table is railroading No, no, and no again. That is a very limited view that you have placed upon yourself. The tables are for randomization. Limitations do not equate to a railroad. A railroad is placing YOUR limitations as a referee on the players and their choices. For example, if your players are going through a forest and you want them to from West to East you have two basic options. You can let them meander through the forest looking for clues and ideas on where to go. They could go North for a while, turn East for a while, go North, East, South, East, etc. until they reach the other side. A railroad might give the illusion of choice but there would be no choice at all because every time the players wanted to go a different direction than East they would be cut off by a never-ending wall reach into the sky to your North, a bottomless trench to their South. THAT is a railroad. Using a structure of some sort - castle, dungeon, house, etc. - is not a railroad, either. That's just the limitations of the structure. When you walk from the bedroom to the kitchen in your house is that a railroad? Well put The Semi-Retired Gamer! Have an Exalt! |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Mar 29, 2024 14:12:35 GMT -5
Also to be fair, mao is the self-described King of the Railroads and as such that is the lens he sees things through. So if you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Yeah, pretty much, I didn't say those lens are not badly flawed and need to replaced with better lenses. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Mar 29, 2024 14:14:26 GMT -5
I appreciate your dedication to your thesis, mao He is following a time honored tradition, when you are wrong, everyone knows you are wrong and you know you are wrong, then keep doubling down over and over. You have spoken truth muddywater, have an Exalt! |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Mar 29, 2024 14:20:09 GMT -5
What is gray about being confused about a basic principle? I guess it's my philosophy background to think about things The problem mao is that you are not thinking about things in a realistic manner. You see things as a railroad that are as far from a railroad as East is from West. Somewhere along the line you lost any objectivity on the subject and now are just parroting a line that none of us accept. As creative as you can be, I don't accept it as legit that you really cannot see the line between railroading and open-ended player agency and understand the difference. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Mar 29, 2024 14:21:30 GMT -5
Yeah, those are the lenses! Also to be fair, mao is the self-described King of the Railroads and as such that is the lens he sees things through. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Mar 29, 2024 14:35:00 GMT -5
No and I will tell you why By creating a sandbox world and dungeon the players are pointed in directions that are in fact a form of encounter based adventure. If you are using all tables , they are limited in their scope. Unless you have a script, encounter based encounters still have a huge amount of freedom just by the nature of rpgs I am not saying that that they are not styles of play. You just can't have one without the other , this is silly. You say In the real world, where ever you are there are things that point you in certain directions. Oh, here is a river, I can't swim or don't want to swim, so I travel to the bridge and cross there. You think that is railroad and all of the rest of us know that that is choice. What you are really saying is that you don't believe it free will in or out of game. I disagree with you and I think the rest of us do too. In a sandbox world and dungeon there are many, many things that point in many, many directions, the players get to choose which ones to pursue, IF AND ONLY IF, the DM forces the players to choose a specific directions and herds them along a specific path to a specific outcome, do you have a railroad. No sane person plays in a game where that happens. You say Of course tables are limited in scope, if they were unlimited then you would be rolling d(infinity), not very practical. AND we are not limited to the tables in the rules, we can add all the tables we want with all the options we want. Any halfway competent person can ramp the options very easily into the millions. Using tables do not mean railroads, that is to be completely fair, lazy thinking on your part. As a player, you either have freedom to choose or you have a railroad. If you have freedom to make choice and are not FORCED to do certain things or go certain places, then it is not a railroad. Railroad and sandboxes are opposite ends of the spectrum and you most absolutely can have one without the other. |
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Post by hengest on Mar 30, 2024 11:07:47 GMT -5
Agreed with Admin Pete 's comments above. mao , I appreciate your ability to dig your heels in, although I think that here (absent a more detailed explanation of what you're talking about), your claim just doesn't make sense. It turns any aspect of the game into a railroad, which 1) makes the term 'railroad' synonymous with 'gaming' 2) defeats the purpose of having the term 'railroad' in the first place, which was to describe a certain kind of unalterable "script" that the players need to follow. Edit: whoops, didn't see the lock. |
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