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Post by captaincrumbcake on Apr 29, 2016 2:07:49 GMT -5
Back in 1980, when I was taught how to play AD&D 1E (cough, cough), our DM made us players map everywhere our characters went (in a dungeon). While doing so did take up a portion of our gaming time, it was also during such times that we learned how to, effectively, do things. We came to understand not only our best combinations for marching orders, but time management of resources (rations, water, light, etc.) We learned not to dally too much, or dice would begin rolling behind the DM screen; this was quickly interpreted as being a bad thing. We also learned, by doing so, that exploring any large (usually underground) area that we had absolutely no knowledge of, was a slow process--as it should be. Yes, our characters could have foregone all that detail and merely walked about, hoping to remember the way out when need be... But we did as we were (ahem) encouraged, and made sure we had a fairly good idea of the layout of the place we were planning on looting.
Times and styles vary, and I've witnessed DMs that have actually laid out a module's maps in front of the group--to then, be explored. I've observed groups where mapping was unheard of. I've seen (and heard) of numerous variations on the matter.
I'm not sure if there is such a thing as, the best way to play D&D. But, I'm very (very, very) old (skool), and, if the group one is playing in, or one is DMing, is not mapping, it is my profound sense of sadness that they're missing some of the soul of the game.
ymmv
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2016 8:58:07 GMT -5
Mapping has all but disappeared, which I take as further proof that the game has gone to Hell.
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Post by hengest on Apr 29, 2016 11:00:52 GMT -5
Mapping is triple-cool.
Do you guys give some kind of overland maap of "known areas" for flavor and then have the players map only new and "dungeon-like" areas? Or does anyone have the players create their own rough hexmap over overland stuff as well, even the "familiar" stuff?
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Post by bestialwarlust on Apr 30, 2016 17:17:30 GMT -5
It depends on the group and if you dungeon crawl a lot. Mapping can be a fun part of the game but if your group doesn't like it why force it. I don't run a lot of large dungeons often so my group doesn't map often.
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Post by robkuntz on Apr 30, 2016 18:13:09 GMT -5
Not mapping strips the unknown out of the experience, and when you strip the unknown out of the Fantasy--in all cases which IS the UNKNOWN--Fantasy is stripped away as well. You are left with the game, and then from that, the mechanics, as all of the immersive aspects of the original RPG experience are reduced to back matter as the mechanical system alone then forwards the reduced aspect of the "F"RPG entertainment.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Apr 30, 2016 21:05:44 GMT -5
Not mapping strips the unknown out of the experience I don't understand this statement? Mapping, creating a map of what you have explored, is what makes a previously "unknown" region become a "known" region. The way I see it, not mapping is what renders everything--except perhaps the location(s) the players are immediately in--"unknown". If the players don't want to create a map, that's their business. They might gain some speed and perhaps reduce the odds of encountering random monsters. But at the cost of increasing the chance of getting lost, and then not being able to get back to the surface to cash in their treasure (and XP). I can't remember when a group in my games did not--at the least--scribble down a mud map along the way. |
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Post by robkuntz on May 1, 2016 3:12:35 GMT -5
Yep. You would take it that way. But mapping is being replaced today by people knowing the way, being made right angle maps (L,R), or having the map laid right before them.
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Post by hengest on May 1, 2016 15:25:15 GMT -5
A relevant and new thread on DF in case anyone hasn't seen the quoted post before: here |
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Post by robkuntz on May 1, 2016 15:50:17 GMT -5
A good post by Bargle in quoting the other. Yes. Mapping will save you, unless you are Robilar and go alone into the dungeons wearing a ring of invisibility... But that's solo, the main are always parties. The trouble today with mapping is that it is not really mapping. As far as I've noticed the parties are being coddled in this manner as well: give them tourist guide maps with lots of stone work in between, no angular passages, all ninety degree turns, which lead from encounter to encounter as if walking up/down across/back across a store, like Walmart. All very grid like, all very touristy, all very unchallenging. If you want to learn how to map, throw the kitchen sink at the beginning and see how the adventurers do it. These aren't supposed to be walks in the park, sure for some architecture, common stuff,but for challenging game dungeons what I see proliferating the 'net is just plain unchallenging and is likewise meant to give the field of understanding to the players and not otherwise.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2016 16:09:27 GMT -5
Aaaaaand Rob hits it out of the park. The game, honestly, has become too easy to be any fun for me any more. Reading some online game forums is enough to drive one to despair; people actually say things like "The referee cannot kill my PC without my agreement." The game has turned into sitting around and rolling dice while the ref tells you how awesome your character is.
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Post by robkuntz on May 1, 2016 16:21:55 GMT -5
Aaaaaand Rob hits it out of the park. The game, honestly, has become too easy to be any fun for me any more. Reading some online game forums is enough to drive one to despair; people actually say things like "The referee cannot kill my PC without my agreement." The game has turned into sitting around and rolling dice while the ref tells you how awesome your character is. ... and Michael runs the bases to home...  |
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Post by Admin Pete on May 1, 2016 18:52:13 GMT -5
One of the recent dungeons areas (8 months ago) I had my players in and they were mapping it. Then the mapper said, wait a minute is that corridor going through this other corridor on the same level, because we are able to detect sloping passages so if it is above or below we should know that and I said it is not a sloping passage and yes it goes directly across the first corridor on the same elevation but does not intersect it in any way. And that was one of many places where there was a spatial anomaly and corridors and rooms occupied the same space without intersecting or being accessible to each other.
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Post by robkuntz on May 1, 2016 19:12:05 GMT -5
Yeh. Gary and I used many tricks like this.
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Post by robkuntz on May 1, 2016 19:18:14 GMT -5
Dungeon crafting is an art that in my estimation has become artless mainly due to the need by publishers to not overly challenge players of premade adventures. I am finishing an OOLLLLD adventure to be released with the DVD collection and it uses a mapping/environment system that may have been used after 1975 for this type of setting, but I've never checked as I was possibly the first to create such a scheme. Is it really original? By today's standards, possibly not. By what I see around me most often? Hell yes. It's still holding its own after all these years, which doesn't say much for advances in mapping tech for our mainstay RPGs...
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2016 19:27:09 GMT -5
Heh. I recently sat down and read through the ENTIRE "Bottle City."
I think it would make most modern players cry.
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Post by robkuntz on May 1, 2016 19:45:18 GMT -5
Heh. I recently sat down and read through the ENTIRE "Bottle City." I think it would make most modern players cry. Yeh. That's the problem. I still believe that we need more examples of good dungeons in print. I know OD&Ders make their own stuff, but I feel that leaves 1st edition guys and gals to parade the show, and what I am seeing from many of them is a descent to WotCism or Paizo ram rodding. IOW, the past lore is often being stripped out of 1st edition as well. And When Gonzo map making and tricks of the sort you and I were used to seeing as commonplace start disappearing, so goes the game. I really, really believe that OD&Ders should lead the way back in re-establishing what good paid for adventures are. There's no getting rid of the beasts from the minds of current RPG dynamics, so at least individual efforts like this would start building a library, an art, again. Just my two cents. Dungeons like Bottle City should have been surpassed years ago, but yet today it still stands as an ultimate challenge for mapping it and defeating its contents. The compliment isn't for me, but for an era that has otherwise been washed away by the median market place. |
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Post by bestialwarlust on May 1, 2016 21:32:44 GMT -5
Heh. I recently sat down and read through the ENTIRE "Bottle City." I think it would make most modern players cry. Yeh. That's the problem. I still believe that we need more examples of good dungeons in print. I know OD&Ders make their own stuff, but I feel that leaves 1st edition guys and gals to parade the show, and what I am seeing from many of them is a descent to WotCism or Paizo ram rodding. IOW, the past lore is often being stripped out of 1st edition as well. And When Gonzo map making and tricks of the sort you and I were used to seeing as commonplace start disappearing, so goes the game. I really, really believe that OD&Ders should lead the way back in re-establishing what good paid for adventures are. There's no getting rid of the beasts from the minds of current RPG dynamics, so at least individual efforts like this would start building a library, an art, again. Just my two cents. Dungeons like Bottle City should have been surpassed years ago, but yet today it still stands as an ultimate challenge for mapping it and defeating its contents. The compliment isn't for me, but for an era that has otherwise been washed away by the median market place. Too many would find it unfair. I have a copy of that module and think it's fantastic. Now a days it's less about playing the game itself and more about rolling dice and letting the mechanics play the game for you. |
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Post by hengest on May 1, 2016 23:39:15 GMT -5
Aaaaaand Rob hits it out of the park. The game, honestly, has become too easy to be any fun for me any more. Reading some online game forums is enough to drive one to despair; people actually say things like "The referee cannot kill my PC without my agreement." The game has turned into sitting around and rolling dice while the ref tells you how awesome your character is. I was trying to refrain from posting about this, but I'm giving in. I sat in on a 3E game recently. I haven't actively played in a long time and my only real experience with the super obviously rules-heavy skill-crazy games was not extensive. So I got invited to see how a random group plays and what I liked and what I didn't like. Long story short, the group was all nice folks but the game was not for me. I could not believe how much -- all -- exploration was handwaved or ignored. And so much attention was paid to bonuses that were beyond extreme -- +20 or more and so on. The entire game was tracking insane damage in combat that was utterly boring because there was no risk. Of course no one here really needs to hear this. But it was boring, and after a point it was obvious that it was boring to the regular players. I had to bow out in any case for personal reasons. There was, however, just a taste of engagement and of shared fantasy, the barest taste. I think this is what many players are chasing and rotting through pointless combat for? In other words, I think this experience of mine supports what robkuntz said about OD&Ders showing what an adventure can be... |
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Post by Admin Pete on May 2, 2016 5:55:27 GMT -5
Or as one of my new players said at the end of the game session, "I'll be back next time, I didn't know it could be this much fun." This 20 something was invited by two of my other 20 something players. They are 3.5E and LARP and video game players.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2016 9:09:57 GMT -5
I've said this before elsewhere, but I converted a young man who grew up on 3.0, 3.5, and Pathfinder to OD&D after half a dozen sessions, to the point where he bought the reprints and is running the game. I asked him why, and he said, and I quote,
"Because if I want to sneak up behind a guy and knock him out, I say that, you roll some dice, it either happens or it doesn't, and we get on with the darn game."
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Post by bestialwarlust on May 2, 2016 9:54:32 GMT -5
I've said this before elsewhere, but I converted a young man who grew up on 3.0, 3.5, and Pathfinder to OD&D after half a dozen sessions, to the point where he bought the reprints and is running the game. I asked him why, and he said, and I quote, "Because if I want to sneak up behind a guy and knock him out, I say that, you roll some dice, it either happens or it doesn't, and we get on with the darn game." No no you're doing it all wrong... You have to flip through 15 books to find an answer then argue with the player for a half hour. I don't know how you managed to run games at all  |
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Post by robkuntz on May 2, 2016 9:59:26 GMT -5
Heh. As I note in my BOOK, and rather sarcastically in one of the commentaries (#35): "... Thank heavens for that, huh? We’d be pretty bored having to pace off every foot to and from the inn to the merchant, for instance. There would then occur an inevitable rule regarding doing so, such as a “walk check.” "
Play went from complex (i.e., having ascending/descending levels of richness) to complicated (having too many SET rules for every facet of play).
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Post by merias on May 2, 2016 13:59:23 GMT -5
Underlying a lot of these comments is that mapping is an all-or-nothing proposition. There is a middle ground that in my experience works well, as someone who has played OD&D and clones on roll20. The idea is that the ref uploads an image of the current dungeon level (or whatever is being explored) to the virtual tabletop, but blacks it out so the players can't see any of it (roll20 calls the the 'fog of war'). Then, as the players explore, it is revealed little by little - but only as much as players can see given their available light sources. It is assumed that one PC is mapping as the reveal takes place, so as long as the map is not lost or destroyed in-game, areas previously revealed stay visible. This is a nice middle ground between showing the entire map all at once, or just hand-waving the map and assuming the players never get lost. The interface allows players to make text annotations on the maps, so they can note traps and secret doors as they come across them. It does have some limitations. For example, the players will always know when a corridor descends beneath another, or they will not be confused by rooms of an odd shape, etc. But it does still allow for a sense of exploring the unknown.
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Post by Admin Pete on May 2, 2016 14:20:05 GMT -5
Interesting! However, I am not likely to ever own that tech and would likely need a lot of help to use it if I did. The most difficult thing for me would be all of the things I do that are impossible to draw and I rely on my own notes since I have very little drawing skill but I can describe pretty much anything I can imagine. I make varied uses of extra- and intra- dimensional spaces, things I could not draw if my life depended on it, but I can describe them to the players quite handily. |
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Post by merias on May 2, 2016 15:24:08 GMT -5
Interesting! However, I am not likely to ever own that tech and would likely need a lot of help to use it if I did. ;) The most difficult thing for me would be all of the things I do that are impossible to draw and I rely on my own notes since I have very little drawing skill but I can describe pretty much anything I can imagine. I make varied uses of extra- and intra- dimensional spaces, things I could not draw if my life depended on it, but I can describe them to the players quite handily. I prefer this way as well. But it's not too hard to learn. The interface allows you to create and join games without players, so you can experiment. I guess my bigger point was this is a nice blending of old mapping styles and new. As such it makes a good option for those looking to drag in younger players or for those (like me) who have no one locally to play with. It's not the only way to mix technology and gaming of course, using just video chat the mapping still happens as you would expect, someone draws on a piece of graph paper and holds it up to the camera as needed. |
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Post by Admin Pete on May 2, 2016 15:39:38 GMT -5
Sorry you don't have anyone local to game with, I hope that changes for you. That automatically changes things up a lot on how you do things. You are always welcome to start a game on here if you like. I would love to see several games going on a continuing basis, I think it adds a lot to our community.
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Post by hengest on May 2, 2016 15:54:25 GMT -5
Interesting! However, I am not likely to ever own that tech and would likely need a lot of help to use it if I did. The most difficult thing for me would be all of the things I do that are impossible to draw and I rely on my own notes since I have very little drawing skill but I can describe pretty much anything I can imagine. I make varied uses of extra- and intra- dimensional spaces, things I could not draw if my life depended on it, but I can describe them to the players quite handily. , do you have in-world explanations of the spatial wackiness that you do (even explanations for yourself), or is it "just" gonzo spatial craziness? I have seen you mention this kind of thing before and I think you're an inspiration for parts of my soon-to-be post over on the poison thread. I've used as a player the "fog of war" stuff that merias mentioned. Worked pretty well, with drawbacks and plusses, as suggested. I like physical stuff that makes the game as distinct as possible from "watching" something, but as merias said, hugely helpful in doing certain things with a remote group and so on. |
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Post by Admin Pete on May 2, 2016 16:04:08 GMT -5
Interesting! However, I am not likely to ever own that tech and would likely need a lot of help to use it if I did. The most difficult thing for me would be all of the things I do that are impossible to draw and I rely on my own notes since I have very little drawing skill but I can describe pretty much anything I can imagine. I make varied uses of extra- and intra- dimensional spaces, things I could not draw if my life depended on it, but I can describe them to the players quite handily. , do you have in-world explanations of the spatial wackiness that you do ( even explanations for yourself), or is it "just" gonzo spatial craziness? I have seen you mention this kind of thing before and I think you're an inspiration for parts of my soon-to-be post over on the poison thread. I've used as a player the "fog of war" stuff that merias mentioned. Worked pretty well, with drawbacks and plusses, as suggested. I like physical stuff that makes the game as distinct as possible from "watching" something, but as merias said, hugely helpful in doing certain things with a remote group and so on. It is some of both, there is an in world explanation that some denizens of world can take advantage of on purpose and there a random factor which can occur and screw around with anyone including the most powerful. Over the tens of thousands of years of history and powerful beings mortal and immortal doing things to twist reality in various ways has resulted in the destabilization of the multiverse. |
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on May 9, 2016 11:51:28 GMT -5
Mapping by the players is a major part of exploring.
It is what separates the men from the boys.
And it has a great deal to do with character longevity.
Good mapping is wisdom, no mapping is suicide.
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Post by Von on May 15, 2016 10:33:26 GMT -5
I'm still working out how to integrate the amount of front-loading required by Roll20 (a lot) with the amount of data entry I'm prepared to do (not much), but I do like the way it handles territory. At the very least I'd upload a map and use pings to indicate where the party think they are (or invite them to do so and chortle to myself).
The young lad who's DMing 5e for me at present has much more patience with macros and tokens than I do, but we hit a wall last week where play was stopped because he hadn't input material from his module into Roll20 yet. Of this, it must be said, I do not approve.
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