Orcs and their lack of gods ??!!?? Say What??

[Admin Pete]

I know orcs are nasty but don't they have any gods of mining, or trade, any neutral or good gods at all? Or do the demi-human goody elven gods take the place of "satan" in their belief system?

Here is a quote I saw recently. For crying out loud, its your game - make it up!  The essence of old school D&D is that you can make up anything that you need for your campaign.


I could understand this a lot better if the above question was re-written as follows:

Hey guys, I am working on a new campaign and I am looking for some suggestions to jumpstart my mind with some new directions to go with gods for my monsters. Any suggestions?

The conversation flowing from that start, I could understand since most of us have limited time. But that first quote just rubs me the wrong way.

[robkuntz]

The "Cult of Entitlement" members are also the loudest and most heard from complainers...

[monk]

I know you're taking the high road by withholding the name of the forum/fora from which these recent threads come, but geez, I'd kinda like to know just so that I can avoid them! Haha!

[bestialwarlust]

Make it it up!!?? what is this talk! Hands must be held! The sheep need to be lead!!!

[Admin Pete]

monk first of all I am seeing the same threads on different forums - some who claim to be old school and some who are unabashed new school havens. It doesn't really matter because this nonsense is all over the internet and you hear it from people who started playing in the mid 1970's and from people who are brand new to the hobby, it has infected almost everyone. There are very few people who play OD&D at all and of those few play and/or try to play like Arneson intended. Now that is not to say that everyone has to play the same way or that if you (ie anyone) are having fun that it is bad wrong fun.

What it is to say is that there was an intended way to play, the way Arneson played, the way Rob plays and the way that I hope that I play that gets the full range of joy that OD&D is capable of producing when it is not restrained, caged and shackled by the btb fanatics and the rules lawyers, but is allowed to be the free wide ranging effervescent transcendent create on the fly everchanging evermutating thing that was originally intended.

[robkuntz]

The same way to play is exactly this way: differently. This ultimately defines rising proclivity melding with player/DM strengths. This is the high road; and once you learn that path there's no going astray on your ever-expanding, ever redefined, journey.

[Deleted]

I like everything about this thread.

It's relevant to me lately in that next week I'm going to be running a game at our local gaming store. There's probably going to be new players. The store has sort of made a name for itself with Magic the Gathering and a few other non rpgs, though I do think they have a 5th edition night ...

I plan on sticking to my guns and running my campaign world no differently than I normally would, no matter who plays, but I wonder if that will lose me players in the long haul. Of course, that is not to say that new and fresh ideas are not welcome at my table

[Admin Pete]

My game is this evening and I am expecting one (confirmed) and maybe two new players. Last game a college student wondered by the table several times and then asked if were playing D&D, I told him Yeah the original 1974 game and he asked if he could play our next game, I said sure and he gave me his email. I let him look at the 3LBBs and he was stunned!

[Deleted]

This just proves Rob is right... years ago this hobby changed from a creative model to a consuming model. A lot of people out there just don't have much imagination.

[robkuntz]

It fits squarely with the consumer/production model: Don't do anything creative, do not make, just purchase. Got a wallet, get some minimal education so that we can link you into the production-consumption cycle, credit cards guaranteed of course so that you also become a debt slave working to pay off your borrowing within the model. The only thing that I would change to Gronan's last sentence is that "people out there just don't have much imagination...+ ANYMORE." It's been collectively rinsed away with the need to consume and to be "entertained." IOW, extrinsic value won out over intrinsic ones. Now instead of noting real accomplishments people try to impress each other with how many music CDs they own, how many LIKES on FB they have achieved, and so forth. Society has become so wrapped up in superficial extrinsic value that when hit over the head with DIY or to creatively think on one's own that they blink like deer looking into headlights...

[Deleted]

I wish I could disagree with Rob's analysis.

Now, it CAN be a good thing. In another of my hobbies... model railroading... I can now buy, prebuilt and ready to go, all the "ordinary" engines, cars, etc. But rather than meaning that I don't build anything myself, it means that I can spend my time making the oddball stuff unique to one railroad.

To use a wargaming analogy... I don't have to build a company of ordinary M4 Sherman tanks, so I can spend my modeling time making a platoon of M7 Priests and an M32 recovery vehicle or two.

So, "imagination and consumption" CAN be a "both - and" process. But I fear even that is slipping away.

[robkuntz]

Mar 19, 2016 20:10:16 GMT -5 @gronanofsimmerya said:

I wish I could disagree with Rob's analysis.

Now, it CAN be a good thing. In another of my hobbies... model railroading... I can now buy, prebuilt and ready to go, all the "ordinary" engines, cars, etc. But rather than meaning that I don't build anything myself, it means that I can spend my time making the oddball stuff unique to one railroad.

To use a wargaming analogy... I don't have to build a company of ordinary M4 Sherman tanks, so I can spend my modeling time making a platoon of M7 Priests and an M32 recovery vehicle or two.

So, "imagination and consumption" CAN be a "both - and" process. But I fear even that is slipping away.

True.  But it is a rather moderate example.  People under the production/consumption cycle look for everything made for them; and it's not like when Don Kaye, Terry (my brother) and myself sat down and constructed/painted whole miniature armies to play Napoleonic or WWII era battles.  Metal was soon replaced by plastic, then pre-painted plastic, etc.  Back to society sans wargaming, the very advents of the "fast food" model and the microwave continued to issue in (in league with a sped up production cycle) the "no time" factor.  Quantity then replaced quality in most cases.  This has persisted now for over a generation, and so your last remark, "But I fear even that is slipping away," is right on target with everything proceeding it, and as I have noted.  D&D was spawned during an era in which the change as I've noted was not yet as entrenched as it is now, so it was assumed that one would DIY with some minimal guides and pluck.  The idea of thinking creatively was a given, then.  Now it's the exception and an endangered one to boot.

[Deleted]

So, aside from running our games the way we always have, which has limited effects on the whole; just what can we do about the entitlement generation and the "imagination and consumption" problem? (I believe they are both interlinked ...) Anything?

My immediate thought is for all of us to somehow become more active in the OSR and publish like there's no tomorrow, but not everyone is going to want do that.

Maybe nothing can be done and we are all just relics of a wonderful past that will fade into non-existence as time goes by.

Am I derailing the thread?

[captaincrumbcake]

Well there is one thing an Indie writer/publisher could do to help steer things back to center: quit providing everything in the text of the adventure!
When did it begin, where the DM/GM/REF got so lazy, that when reading the room description stating there was an ogre within, that they couldn't go to the M&T or MM and find the needed stats to help run the encounter? Or even better, when did things get so lazy a DM/GM/REF was so unfamiliar with basic mechanics, that s/he couldn't just run it on-the-fly and give the monster an AC and HP and get on with it?

More published adventures like the B1 (I think the Desert series for advanced might have followed the same style, not sure) would have taught the REFs how to prepare (and be prepared to run) a module. And by continuing to provide everything within a published scenario, the consumer mode (as Rob described) became the norm, and contributed to the problem.

[robkuntz]

More integrated publications dealing with the hows and whys things can be done in open form. With examples. Essentially a DM's workbook, as I have suggested to BBP not too long ago. NOT a How To book, no... But a How Can I Think in This Way book, yes.

[robkuntz]

Mar 20, 2016 12:33:18 GMT -5 JMiskimen said:

So, aside from running our games the way we always have, which has limited effects on the whole; just what can we do about the entitlement generation and the "imagination and consumption" problem? (I believe they are both interlinked ...) Anything?

My immediate thought is for all of us to somehow become more active in the OSR and publish like there's no tomorrow, but not everyone is going to want do that.

Maybe nothing can be done and we are all just relics of a wonderful past that will fade into non-existence as time goes by.

Am I derailing the thread?

I don't believe we derail any threads around here.  All of our thoughts take interesting twists and turns.

I am not as optimistic as I once was concerning making headway against the entrenched model (which both WotC and Paizo use in spades; and which many others, including those in the self-styled "OSR", use as well as a carbon copy of the two aforementioned companies).  It's all about "product" as one vaunted OSR publisher said.  Note that that is a literal quote.  It equals mass production, that is, quantity with no concern to quality or raising up the hobby to some new and non-cyclical level, just proliferating product.

I for one would be up for producing something akin to a DM's workbook (mentioned up thread).  Taking back creativity must perforce involve taking back one's imagination, that is, capturing it.  In an image driven society, computer games galore, and instant gratification as the prescription for most of folk's daily involvement with life, I just don't see as positive a light on the horizon as I once did.  But.  I will not go without a few well chosen words and cutting edge products (not just "products") FWIW.

[Deleted]

As Rob points out earlier, it's not just in gaming, it's in our society as a whole. Society drives the attitude in gaming.

I think it's a natural consequence of mass production. Again as Rob mentioned, food did not used to be a mass-produced item, but it has become one... up to the point where chickens are butchered at a very carefully measured size to make sure that a "boneless skinless chicken breast" is the same size no matter what restaurant you go to. (My brother ran his own restaurant, this is not mere conjecture on my part.)

And I don't know how to reverse this, or if it's inevitable. The advent of computers and electronic publishing means that anybody can publish their "creative" work if they don't worry about making money at it, but with no quality control most free books, stories, and games on the web are worth exactly what you pay for them.

And it really is hurting gaming. As I observed more than once with the newest edition of D&D, the assumption has become "you WILL buy it," and I find myself getting a lot of heat over the idea that it doesn't offer anything I want. Burden of proof used to rest with the affirmative.

[Admin Pete]

Mar 20, 2016 12:33:18 GMT -5 JMiskimen said:

So, aside from running our games the way we always have, which has limited effects on the whole; just what can we do about the entitlement generation and the "imagination and consumption" problem? (I believe they are both interlinked ...) Anything?

My immediate thought is for all of us to somehow become more active in the OSR and publish like there's no tomorrow, but not everyone is going to want do that.

Maybe nothing can be done and we are all just relics of a wonderful past that will fade into non-existence as time goes by.

Am I derailing the thread?

I agree with Rob, you are not derailing the thread. We are relics, but we can fight the good fight and not go quietly!

[Admin Pete]

Mar 20, 2016 14:28:38 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

More integrated publications dealing with the hows and whys things can be done in open form. With examples. Essentially a DM's workbook, as I have suggested to BBP not too long ago. NOT a How To book, no... But a How Can I Think in This Way book, yes.

You write it and I will do everything I can to spread the word and publicize it as I intend to do with your current book.

[Admin Pete]

Mar 19, 2016 7:42:05 GMT -5 Admin Pete said:

My game is this evening and I am expecting one (confirmed) and maybe two new players. Last game a college student wondered by the table several times and then asked if were playing D&D, I told him Yeah the original 1974 game and he asked if he could play our next game, I said sure and he gave me his email. I let him look at the 3LBBs and he was stunned!

I had one new player last night and she loved it and told us she would definitely be here for the next game. The college student I mentioned above was out of town and sent his buddy to the game. He just observed this game (said he had mainly played 4E and a little 5E. Before the evening was over he gave me his email address and told me he and his friend would be at the next game.

The new player commented that she had never seen a game move like that before.

[robkuntz]

Mar 20, 2016 20:08:36 GMT -5 Admin Pete said:

Mar 20, 2016 14:28:38 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

More integrated publications dealing with the hows and whys things can be done in open form. With examples. Essentially a DM's workbook, as I have suggested to BBP not too long ago. NOT a How To book, no... But a How Can I Think in This Way book, yes.

You write it and I will do everything I can to spread the word and publicize it as I intend to do with your current book.

Well.  My publishing partners are over-"booked" as it is with my gamist-oriented materials, so I am currently casting about for alternative publishing schemes.  There are few outfits out there that are varying from the model of plug n play, so books of this type, essays, philosophies, are considered, in my estimation, very low on their totem pole, though I consider them paramount (if sculpted correctly) to re-enlivening Arneson's concept.  So, find me a partner to distribute these more refined works in the U.S. (I'll handle the printing and layout) and I shall write it immediately!  

[Deleted]

I'm not a writer and have no clue how to acquire a publisher, other than to have something written and just plain ask. I wish I could help more, but all I got is DriveThruRPG.com and the like. It's obviously lower end, but they are prolific.

[robkuntz]

Yeah, I'm not really looking for another publisher, but am limited being here in France as to how to access U.S> markets through self-publishing. What I am really looking for is someone to ship what I print on a percentage of profit of sales basis. This besides BBP who are more concerned with my game adventures (and least to date) and The Collector's Trove, who will be releasing my DVD project (hopefully soon (there have been delays there but I keep on being informed that it is "soon)... I already have two offers for publication of A new Ethos in Game Design. So anybody want to make a buck here? All they would have to do is receive the printed books, pack/ship (probably no more than 300 units in a print rum) and share in the profits. Barring that I am looking to fulfillment houses, but really, for some reason, I do not like LULU.

[Deleted]

I don't have the room in my house for 300 of anything, but I do know a guy who does, and he is most certainly a fan of yours ...

Check your messages ...

[Von]

Mar 20, 2016 13:41:46 GMT -5 captaincrumbcake said:

Well there is one thing an Indie writer/publisher could do to help steer things back to center: quit providing everything in the text of the adventure!
When did it begin, where the DM/GM/REF got so lazy, that when reading the room description stating there was an ogre within, that they couldn't go to the M&T or MM and find the needed stats to help run the encounter? Or even better, when did things get so lazy a DM/GM/REF was so unfamiliar with basic mechanics, that s/he couldn't just run it on-the-fly and give the monster an AC and HP and get on with it?

More published adventures like the B1 (I think the Desert series for advanced might have followed the same style, not sure) would have taught the REFs how to prepare (and be prepared to run) a module. And by continuing to provide everything within a published scenario, the consumer mode (as Rob described) became the norm, and contributed to the problem.

I think you picked the wrong bit to eliminate. I don't mind having mechanical data there on the page - that facilitates flow in play. I pronounce death on boxed "read this to your players" text, though, and I am not keen on encounter 'scripts' that say what the NPCs will do each round. That sort of thing has its place, in modules for beginners, but the putative referee should be weaned off with all haste.

I absolutely agree that a good adventure or setting book or module is one which explains and demonstrates the process of creation rather than sitting there as a complete product to be wolfed down whole. The problem with explaining a creative process, though, is that you're teaching people not to need professionals to do their creating for them - which is a poor choice if you're in the business of doing just that!

(I should do it. I have no desire to forge a career as a Developer of Games and so I have nothing to lose by producing an ur-supplement which, if done well, would make such a career path obsolete.)

[Von]

Mar 17, 2016 21:44:28 GMT -5 Admin Pete said:

I know orcs are nasty but don't they have any gods of mining, or trade, any neutral or good gods at all? Or do the demi-human goody elven gods take the place of "satan" in their belief system?

Here is a quote I saw recently. For crying out loud, its your game - make it up!  The essence of old school D&D is that you can make up anything that you need for your campaign.


I could understand this a lot better if the above question was re-written as follows:

Hey guys, I am working on a new campaign and I am looking for some suggestions to jumpstart my mind with some new directions to go with gods for my monsters. Any suggestions?

The conversation flowing from that start, I could understand since most of us have limited time. But that first quote just rubs me the wrong way.

Also: despite my personal respect for the Iron Kingdoms setting and game (for those days when I'm just not feeling very creative, and want to play with toys for which someone else has provided the rules), I am sick to the back teeth of the publishers' forums, which are full to bursting of the kind of people who ask the first sort of question all the time. Rather than a lack of imagination, I attribute it to a pathological insecurity - a desire to Do It Right. It's the same impulse which leads fans of sprawling fictional universes to ask if a given thing is or isn't canon, to join every dot until not a speck of mystery or openness is left. It's the scientific method gone horribly wrong. "Measure... quantify... explain... measure... quantify... explain... and trust not that which is not peer-reviewed by peer-recognised professionals..."

[hengest]

I am 35, so I haven't been gaming since the 70s. However, this same thing hits me in the face literally every day as it's expressed in language teaching.

I'll give just one example: at my last (most recent and final) teaching job, I was describing to my supervisor some plan for some assignment. She gave me a strange look and then advised me that the students would not know to use a dictionary if not explicitly directed to do so as part of the assignment. She meant by dictionary "any paper or online source for looking up words".

These were young adults at an extremely expensive private college and had already had 3 years of the language in question.

The bright side: I have worked on an extracurricular group for developing reading skills in this language for several years. It is very DIY at home (you look up the words! you figure out the syntax!) and then very "get help where needed from the more experienced" when we meet once a week.

The results are really cool and exceptionally good. And it's so much easier to "ref" than a normal no-learning class!

My point here is that as mentioned by certain refs on this thread -- a lot of young people ARE open to the fun and exploration of DIY. Keep showing them! Hey, I wish I could game with one of you guys for a session.

Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho' 
We are not now that strength which in old days 
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are; 
One equal temper of heroic hearts, 
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will 
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

[robkuntz]

Apr 17, 2016 11:08:46 GMT -5 Von said:

Mar 20, 2016 13:41:46 GMT -5 captaincrumbcake said:

Well there is one thing an Indie writer/publisher could do to help steer things back to center: quit providing everything in the text of the adventure!
When did it begin, where the DM/GM/REF got so lazy, that when reading the room description stating there was an ogre within, that they couldn't go to the M&T or MM and find the needed stats to help run the encounter? Or even better, when did things get so lazy a DM/GM/REF was so unfamiliar with basic mechanics, that s/he couldn't just run it on-the-fly and give the monster an AC and HP and get on with it?

More published adventures like the B1 (I think the Desert series for advanced might have followed the same style, not sure) would have taught the REFs how to prepare (and be prepared to run) a module. And by continuing to provide everything within a published scenario, the consumer mode (as Rob described) became the norm, and contributed to the problem.

I absolutely agree that a good adventure or setting book or module is one which explains and demonstrates the process of creation rather than sitting there as a complete product to be wolfed down whole. The problem with explaining a creative process, though, is that you're teaching people not to need professionals to do their creating for them - which is a poor choice if you're in the business of doing just that!

(I should do it. I have no desire to forge a career as a Developer of Games and so I have nothing to lose by producing an ur-supplement which, if done well, would make such a career path obsolete.)

Yep.  Funny.  I've done over 20+ adventures while doing my darndest to differentiate each (i.e., making them unique by comparison to the last in form and function),  Why?  Because the TSR model changed and for me it was either stay present in it while trying to show the route back to DIY or to drop out completely and become irrelevant and fade to obscurity.  Most people remember me now for adventure crafting (like Fight On! #14 dedicated that issue to me and as a superior designer of adventures, or some such equal wording).  In actuality every time I see that linkage which describes me as a "designer" and by not mentioning my many other designs, I wince.  I't's a partial proof when considering my designs; and yet it's a stark admission of what the market--the overall perception of consumers in that market--of what it demands, extolls and, indeed, expects.

[mormonyoyoman]

Mar 18, 2016 21:12:31 GMT -5 bestialwarlust said:

Make it it up!!?? what is this talk! Hands must be held! The sheep need to be lead!!!

Bahhh, humbug!

[True Black Raven]

What! Your orcs are smart enough to understand worship?