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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jan 13, 2022 8:47:50 GMT -5
The thirteenth point by geoffrey is:
Now this one I will (mostly) give him, my OD&D worlds and most OD&D worlds are not worlds "in which you have to struggle simply to survive." But I have heard of OD&D worlds that are of that order of danger, but they are not common. OD&D can easily be run as post apocalyptic and IMO the implied world of OD&D is post apocalyptic, but where civilization has made a return and is a mostly stable footing. I do not know of any that are "Ye Olde Englande Ren Faire" in application.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jan 13, 2022 8:52:36 GMT -5
The fourteenth point by geoffrey is:
Speaking only of OD&D, if you are using just the 3LBBs, which I have done extensively, I think the difference between OD&D and GW is negligible in regard to what I placed in bold. Once you start adding things like thieves (which I generally do not do) or paladins and rangers which I sometimes use, then he has a point. Again I am not discussing AD&D at all.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jan 13, 2022 9:04:31 GMT -5
The fifteenth point by geoffrey is:
There are some things in OD&D which have no saving throw, but generally he is right in regard to this. In fact, if I were running GW, that 500 meter radius would be at least a 5,000 meter, maybe a 10,000 meter radius.
Also while I can still, mostly, think in metric and 40+ years ago I was fluent; if I were running it I would convert entirely back to standard units, unless I set my game outside the bounds of the USA since those are what would most likely have survived in memory or if something were to be created from scratch, it would be similar.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jan 13, 2022 9:07:40 GMT -5
The sixteenth point by geoffrey is:
While he has a point here, I would note that I generally have always done this more often than not. I really do not care about using tables during games and usually just put in what treasure I want. You can easily run OD&D with no treasure types and I find it is much easier if you do it that way. I would note that regardless of what game I am playing I am beholden to no tables or norms and that, IMO, should be standard for any referee.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jan 13, 2022 9:16:32 GMT -5
The seventeenth point by geoffrey is: This one I have to (mostly) give him. However, I would note that some referees do put in a chance of any spell backfiring and so while I do not do that (so far) it is something that some referees do. Also there is an exception of note: Teleport spells can leave you dead by coming in low or high. It is not the only one that by the book has a draw back, but there are others. I also added this note to the OP: **I found out this was also posted on Dragonsfoot by Geoffrey back on Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:25 pm Why I like Gamma World even more than A/D&D So apparently this predates the odd74 appearance by a couple of years. Unlike odd74, I can still read Dragonsfoot.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jan 13, 2022 9:28:03 GMT -5
At Dragonsfoot Geoffrey wrote:
I was not around DF in 2006 when this was posted, but had I been I would have loved to have written the above to him at that time.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jan 13, 2022 9:32:41 GMT -5
For some great humor here is what Mr. Reaper wrote at Dragonsfoot in the same thread.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jan 13, 2022 9:35:24 GMT -5
Over on DF geoffrey made one final response of note:
I would agree AD&D cannot compete with that; however, IMO OD&D can compete with that.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jan 13, 2022 9:43:46 GMT -5
Hey The Semi-Retired Gamer, this is complete, but I await yours and everyone's comments to which I will try to respond.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Jan 14, 2022 18:45:19 GMT -5
Hey The Semi-Retired Gamer , this is complete, but I await yours and everyone's comments to which I will try to respond. Let me gather my thoughts...
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Post by hengest on Jan 14, 2022 19:18:44 GMT -5
I have nothing to contribute, having never even looked at Gamma World, but I am really enjoying this thread and look forward to reading the posts from other qualified people. Exalt for sticking with this, The Perilous Dreamer.
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Post by El Borak on Jan 15, 2022 0:31:53 GMT -5
The first official point by geoffrey is:I am fond of levels, so if I ever ran Gamma World, I would probably have levels but top them out at 4th or 5th level max. Using inspiration from two of my favorite books which were also used as inspiration for Gamma World (and for Metamorphosis Alpha) the levels would likely be about improving psionic powers through use and practice. Hiero's Journey and The Unforsaken Hiero by Sterling E. Lanier. Somewhat of a mashup between Gamma World and OD&D. The following point is addressed later in this series of posts, but it belongs here too. Here is the XP system and as you can see there are indeed levels, just not named and operating differently that OD&D, but nevertheless, there are levels. Experience Points Required for Bonus ------------------------------------ 3,000 6,000 12,000 25,000 50,000 100,000 200,000 500,000 1,000,000 each additional 1,000,000 Die Roll Bonus -------- -------------------- 1 +1 point to mental strength 2 +1 point to constitution 3 +1 point to dexterity 4 +1 point to charisma 5 +1 point to physical strength 6 +1 point to intelligence 7- 8 +1 to hit in physical combat 9-10 +1 damage inflicted by non-energy weapon employed I like levels, they have a version of levels and I would have to tweak it. I like the fixed hit points and I think that might work well with OD&D too.
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Post by El Borak on Jan 15, 2022 0:34:28 GMT -5
The second point by geoffrey is:Ability scores in OD&D are limited to 18. All of the ability score creep he is talking about is all completely optional and comes about in everything after OD&D, after the 3LBBs. I have played with just 18 as the max and I have played with the option of 18/00. Play either way is pretty much identical and it is not until much later versions of "D&D" that ability score creep becomes significant. As long as you are rolling 3d6 in order it is a non issue, as 18/00 is extremely rare, a one in 21,600 chance x 1 in 6 of having that 18 appear on the first roll on strength for 3d6 in order, so the real odds are one in 129,600 which makes that level of strength more rare than in the "real world." You have it right that 18/00 is really rare with 3d6 in order and it is not even close to the highest normal real world strength that a lot of people have.
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Post by El Borak on Jan 15, 2022 0:35:37 GMT -5
The third point by geoffrey is:You could make a good case that Hiero's Journey and The Unforsaken Hiero by Sterling E. Lanier do have alignment, definitely good and evil are present and neutrality, though in such a stark world being neutral is difficult, so the neutrals lean one way or the other. So if I ran Gamma World - alignment would be present, not precisely as presented in OD&D, but present. I like the idea of Warrior Priests as presented by Sterling Lanier. I also love the creatures allies with varying amounts of intelligence and psionics. Those Sterling Lanier books really do have alignment and if anything it is more clearly defined than in D&D.
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Post by El Borak on Jan 15, 2022 0:36:59 GMT -5
The fourth point by geoffrey is:Again for me this is a non-point, I was using zero XP for killing opponent from the early days in the 1970s. IMC smart players have always sought to avoid combat when possible and the goal in OD&D is exploration, staying alive and bringing back loot. Killing and fighting happen sometimes, but are not sought out by wise players. OD&D is just as deadly as Gamma World. The following point is addressed later in this series of posts as I updated this post, but it belongs here too for clarity. Here is the XP system and as you can see there are indeed levels, just not named and operating differently that OD&D, but nevertheless, there are levels. snip In OD&D, if you do not run away a lot, then the Ref/DM is going easy on you or you die a lot.
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Post by El Borak on Jan 15, 2022 0:38:05 GMT -5
The fifth point by geoffrey is:In OD&D the Armor Class ranges from 9 to 2 with only eight armor classes. Technically you do not adjust armor class, but even if you house rule and do it that way, in OD&D - the 3LBBs only, that does not increase the AC range all that much. And that magic assistance to AC is hard to come by. A lot of his points may apply to AD&D, but not at all to OD&D .
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Post by El Borak on Jan 15, 2022 0:40:35 GMT -5
The sixth point by geoffrey is:Two points here, firstly OD&D is 3d6 in order versus 4d6, drop the lowest die, in order for Gamma World. Do to this the average stat is noticeably higher in Gamma World, than in OD&D. In OD&D players also do not pick and choose and use their highest score for their constitution. Secondly, running OD&D with you starting Hit Points being your hit points for the game is a good idea, that I have though about, for OD&D but have not yet run it that way. Even if the whole first level party in OD&D all have one Hit Point each, I give zero thought to "balancing" encounters and I do use any monster from the book or from my own fevered imagination at any time. Hence my statement above that OD&D is just as deadly (or more so) than Gamma World. He is really off base here IMO; however, I would favor giving OD&D players all their hit points up front. Also to refer back to the GW XP bonus table, in OD&D it would be rare for any stat to improve.
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Post by El Borak on Jan 15, 2022 0:42:58 GMT -5
The seventh point by geoffrey is:Again, Hiero's Journey and The Unforsaken Hiero by Sterling E. Lanier does have clerics of a sort, but they make use of healing methods rather than spells. I would add limited psionic healing to the mix. The books have a cold bleak feel, but with hope because of faith, not because of magic. I see this as a non-issue, in a lot of OD&D god or gods are rarely if ever mentioned, we do have clerics, but they are not generally played as religious, in fact Hiero is more religious than more D&D clerics.
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Post by El Borak on Jan 15, 2022 0:45:26 GMT -5
The eighth point by geoffrey is:I don't really buy this all the way, because I create a lot of my own monsters. The mutated deer(moose) and bears from the books are allies and not enemies as a rule, although they could be enemies. I disagree with this, he must have not played with a creative Ref/DM in an OD&D game. Monsters can and should be really interesting and make you think. Also a lot of GW mutants are essentially highly magical on the level of a Beholder, even if you don't call it magic.
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Post by El Borak on Jan 15, 2022 0:47:39 GMT -5
The ninth point by geoffrey is: The mutations are a good thing. However, I do not view the absence of spells as a plus. Spell slots are a post OD&D concept, so irrelevant to me. D&D psionics is indeed not very good, if I were going to do psionics I would have to devise my own system. Each D&D character can be as specially tailored as the referee desires, but this should be due to worker with the player. Proper level of the spell - takes 2 seconds, you know what works in your campaign. The effect it will have on your campaign, wait what? The consequences if the players gain it, wait what? I gotta be honest, I think this is silly. There is no reason that magic cannot be individualistic, ref and player can work that out. Anything can be specially tailored, just takes time.
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Post by El Borak on Jan 15, 2022 0:48:52 GMT -5
The tenth point by geoffrey is:I do not agree with any of this. First Blackmoor had high-tech artifacts, any D&D game can do the same. I like fantasy and science-fantasy and science fiction. I do not agree that magic wands and laser rifle are either one, more or less evocative than the other. Any magic item can be mysterious and dangerous and wise players will sometimes choose correctly to have nothing to do with some magic items. It is not true that in D&D there is much less danger and mystery associated with magic items. This is a campaign specific thing, not a game specific thing. I could put high-tech artifacts in D&D if I wanted to, but I like magical items, same difference.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Jan 15, 2022 10:17:40 GMT -5
The thirteenth point by geoffrey is: Now this one I will (mostly) give him, my OD&D worlds and most OD&D worlds are not worlds "in which you have to struggle simply to survive." But I have heard of OD&D worlds that are of that order of danger, but they are not common. OD&D can easily be run as post apocalyptic and IMO the implied world of OD&D is post apocalyptic, but where civilization has made a return and is a mostly stable footing. I do not know of any that are "Ye Olde Englande Ren Faire" in application.I can't recall any well know settings like this. I may be wrong, but I don't think so. There have been several "medieval" settings such as Pendragon (Arthurian tales), Chivalry & Sorcery (I think similar to Pendragon in many ways), and Lion & Dragon (medieval authentic) just to name a few. I'm not quite sure what he means by "Ye Olde Englande Ren Faire" type of game for the most part.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Jan 15, 2022 10:24:09 GMT -5
The fourteenth point by geoffrey is: Speaking only of OD&D, if you are using just the 3LBBs, which I have done extensively, I think the difference between OD&D and GW is negligible in regard to what I placed in bold. Once you start adding things like thieves (which I generally do not do) or paladins and rangers which I sometimes use, then he has a point. Again I am not discussing AD&D at all. OD&D has the bare minimum of classes with the bare minimum of details to those classes. Sure, there are additional classes that can be added later if the DM is open to it; personally, I would consider those special cases sort of like the intention of the prestige classes in 3E. OD&D grants a wide allowance of freedom in the details because you don't get a checklist of options for every class.
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Post by hengest on Jan 15, 2022 10:25:11 GMT -5
I don't know Gamma World, but I would guess that this "Ren Faire" remark is a little like "Merrie England" as applied to Tolkien -- it's not to your taste, so it all seems like a kind of hokey show to you.
While there is plenty of D&D stuff not to my taste, I'm not familiar with any "Ren Faire" settings, either.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Jan 15, 2022 10:29:52 GMT -5
The eleventh point by geoffrey is:Again, this is not true, any D&D can have as many interesting character races as the ref wants to include and the players have the option of choosing any monster as a PC. Plus any ref can make any creature intelligent if they want to. Gamma World does not have any advantage on D&D in this regard. Agreed. The assertion that Gamma World races are more interesting is complete and utter nonsense. In fact, I would say neither game really has an advantage in this area except possibly OD&D with the inclusion of a few standard non-human options to serve as examples.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Jan 15, 2022 10:31:25 GMT -5
I don't know Gamma World, but I would guess that this "Ren Faire" remark is a little like "Merrie England" as applied to Tolkien -- it's not to your taste, so it all seems like a kind of hokey show to you. While there is plenty of D&D stuff not to my taste, I'm not familiar with any "Ren Faire" settings, either. Oh ok. That makes sense. Thanks, hengest.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Jan 15, 2022 10:32:44 GMT -5
The fourth point by geoffrey is:Again for me this is a non-point, I was using zero XP for killing opponent from the early days in the 1970s. IMC smart players have always sought to avoid combat when possible and the goal in OD&D is exploration, staying alive and bringing back loot. Killing and fighting happen sometimes, but are not sought out by wise players. OD&D is just as deadly as Gamma World. Also see point one above about the claim that there are no levels. Here is the XP system and as you can see there are indeed levels, just not named and operating differently that OD&D, but nevertheless, there are levels. Experience Points Required for Bonus ------------------------------------ 3,000 6,000 12,000 25,000 50,000 100,000 200,000 500,000 1,000,000 each additional 1,000,000 Die Roll Bonus -------- -------------------- 1 +1 point to mental strength 2 +1 point to constitution 3 +1 point to dexterity 4 +1 point to charisma 5 +1 point to physical strength 6 +1 point to intelligence 7- 8 +1 to hit in physical combat 9-10 +1 damage inflicted by non-energy weapon employed Yeah, it's just levels represented in a different manner.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Jan 15, 2022 10:38:36 GMT -5
The fifteenth point by geoffrey is: There are some things in OD&D which have no saving throw, but generally he is right in regard to this. In fact, if I were running GW, that 500 meter radius would be at least a 5,000 meter, maybe a 10,000 meter radius. Also while I can still, mostly, think in metric and 40+ years ago I was fluent; if I were running it I would convert entirely back to standard units, unless I set my game outside the bounds of the USA since those are what would most likely have survived in memory or if something were to be created from scratch, it would be similar. While there may not be saving throws in Gamma World, was the Artifact Function Chart (or whatever it's called) in first edition? You could roll on this chart to try to figure out the function or use of an Artifact. I would think an unused neutron bomb would be considered an artifact. If you squint and give a little leeway that's a saving throw because you have a chance to figure out the use - or what NOT to do - to remain alive in that situation. Kind of a stretch but still.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jan 15, 2022 17:32:05 GMT -5
The first official point by geoffrey is:I am fond of levels, so if I ever ran Gamma World, I would probably have levels but top them out at 4th or 5th level max. Using inspiration from two of my favorite books which were also used as inspiration for Gamma World (and for Metamorphosis Alpha) the levels would likely be about improving psionic powers through use and practice. Hiero's Journey and The Unforsaken Hiero by Sterling E. Lanier. Somewhat of a mashup between Gamma World and OD&D. I like levels, they have a version of levels and I would have to tweak it. I like the fixed hit points and I think that might work well with OD&D too. Yeah, I like levels to and I might try the fixed hit points sometime, or make them mostly fixed for several levels, then an increase and back to fixed at the new totals.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jan 15, 2022 17:35:51 GMT -5
The fourth point by geoffrey is:Again for me this is a non-point, I was using zero XP for killing opponent from the early days in the 1970s. IMC smart players have always sought to avoid combat when possible and the goal in OD&D is exploration, staying alive and bringing back loot. Killing and fighting happen sometimes, but are not sought out by wise players. OD&D is just as deadly as Gamma World. In OD&D, if you do not run away a lot, then the Ref/DM is going easy on you or you die a lot. I agree and I would add this, not that realism is a big thing in D&D. But encounters you have to avoid lend verisimilitude to the status of your world as a real living world. If the first time you went out you only saw 1st level encounter and at 2nd level on 2nd level encounters etc, that screams artificial and breaks the suspension of disbelief IMO.
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