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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Oct 9, 2021 19:33:27 GMT -5
As happens from time to time, I am emailed information about posts on other forums, I have been getting these emails for years. They seldom if ever email the links, knowing that they will not work for me. So if someone wants to post the link go ahead and do so. It is from odd74, but I have no way to get the link myself, I can only go by what I am sent. I was told this thread was from 2008. The referenced post is by geoffrey the author of Carcosa talking about why he likes Gamma World better than D&D. He has a number of points which I am going to respond to one at a time. I played Gamma World at least once, maybe twice, back in college soon after it was published, I did not get a copy until years later and have never reffed it myself. He leads off by saying: I would only comment that D&D was not intended to replicate the 1920s and 1930s weird tales, its goal was to emulate a faux medieval universe with magic and non-human monsters. *Maybe Falconer can provide the link, I understand he is a mod over there. **I found out this was also posted on Dragonsfoot by Geoffrey back on Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:25 pm Why I like Gamma World even more than A/D&D So apparently this predates the odd74 appearance by a couple of years.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Oct 9, 2021 19:41:54 GMT -5
The first official point by geoffrey is:I am fond of levels, so if I ever ran Gamma World, I would probably have levels but top them out at 4th or 5th level max. Using inspiration from two of my favorite books which were also used as inspiration for Gamma World (and for Metamorphosis Alpha) the levels would likely be about improving psionic powers through use and practice. Hiero's Journey and The Unforsaken Hiero by Sterling E. Lanier. Somewhat of a mashup between Gamma World and OD&D.
The following point is addressed later in this series of posts, but it belongs here too.
Here is the XP system and as you can see there are indeed levels, just not named and operating differently that OD&D, but nevertheless, there are levels.
Experience Points Required for Bonus ------------------------------------ 3,000 6,000 12,000 25,000 50,000 100,000 200,000 500,000 1,000,000 each additional 1,000,000
Die Roll Bonus -------- -------------------- 1 +1 point to mental strength 2 +1 point to constitution 3 +1 point to dexterity 4 +1 point to charisma 5 +1 point to physical strength 6 +1 point to intelligence 7- 8 +1 to hit in physical combat 9-10 +1 damage inflicted by non-energy weapon employed
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Oct 9, 2021 19:49:06 GMT -5
The second point by geoffrey is:
Ability scores in OD&D are limited to 18. All of the ability score creep he is talking about is all completely optional and comes about in everything after OD&D, after the 3LBBs. I have played with just 18 as the max and I have played with the option of 18/00. Play either way is pretty much identical and it is not until much later versions of "D&D" that ability score creep becomes significant. As long as you are rolling 3d6 in order it is a non issue, as 18/00 is extremely rare, a one in 21,600 chance x 1 in 6 of having that 18 appear on the first roll on strength for 3d6 in order, so the real odds are one in 129,600 which makes that level of strength more rare than in the "real world."
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Oct 9, 2021 19:54:12 GMT -5
The third point by geoffrey is:You could make a good case that Hiero's Journey and The Unforsaken Hiero by Sterling E. Lanier do have alignment, definitely good and evil are present and neutrality, though in such a stark world being neutral is difficult, so the neutrals lean one way or the other. So if I ran Gamma World - alignment would be present, not precisely as presented in OD&D, but present. I like the idea of Warrior Priests as presented by Sterling Lanier. I also love the creatures allies with varying amounts of intelligence and psionics.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Oct 9, 2021 19:57:45 GMT -5
The fourth point by geoffrey is:Again for me this is a non-point, I was using zero XP for killing opponent from the early days in the 1970s. IMC smart players have always sought to avoid combat when possible and the goal in OD&D is exploration, staying alive and bringing back loot. Killing and fighting happen sometimes, but are not sought out by wise players. OD&D is just as deadly as Gamma World.
The following point is addressed later in this series of posts as I updated this post, but it belongs here too for clarity.
Here is the XP system and as you can see there are indeed levels, just not named and operating differently that OD&D, but nevertheless, there are levels.
Experience Points Required for Bonus ------------------------------------ 3,000 6,000 12,000 25,000 50,000 100,000 200,000 500,000 1,000,000 each additional 1,000,000
Die Roll Bonus -------- -------------------- 1 +1 point to mental strength 2 +1 point to constitution 3 +1 point to dexterity 4 +1 point to charisma 5 +1 point to physical strength 6 +1 point to intelligence 7- 8 +1 to hit in physical combat 9-10 +1 damage inflicted by non-energy weapon employed
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Oct 9, 2021 20:02:30 GMT -5
The fifth point by geoffrey is:In OD&D the Armor Class ranges from 9 to 2 with only eight armor classes. Technically you do not adjust armor class, but even if you house rule and do it that way, in OD&D - the 3LBBs only, that does not increase the AC range all that much. And that magic assistance to AC is hard to come by.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Oct 9, 2021 20:10:35 GMT -5
The sixth point by geoffrey is:Two points here, firstly OD&D is 3d6 in order versus 4d6, drop the lowest die, in order for Gamma World. Do to this the average stat is noticeably higher in Gamma World, than in OD&D. In OD&D players also do not pick and choose and use their highest score for their constitution.
Secondly, running OD&D with you starting Hit Points being your hit points for the game is a good idea, that I have though about, for OD&D but have not yet run it that way.
Even if the whole first level party in OD&D all have one Hit Point each, I give zero thought to "balancing" encounters and I do use any monster from the book or from my own fevered imagination at any time. Hence my statement above that OD&D is just as deadly (or more so) than Gamma World.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Oct 9, 2021 20:14:40 GMT -5
The seventh point by geoffrey is:Again, Hiero's Journey and The Unforsaken Hiero by Sterling E. Lanier does have clerics of a sort, but they make use of healing methods rather than spells. I would add limited psionic healing to the mix. The books have a cold bleak feel, but with hope because of faith, not because of magic.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Oct 9, 2021 20:17:30 GMT -5
The eighth point by geoffrey is: I don't really buy this all the way, because I create a lot of my own monsters. The mutated deer(moose) and bears from the books are allies and not enemies as a rule, although they could be enemies.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Oct 9, 2021 20:17:50 GMT -5
That is enough for now, I will come back to this.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Oct 12, 2021 7:37:37 GMT -5
The first official point by geoffrey is:I am fond of levels, so if I ever ran Gamma World, I would probably have levels but top them out at 4th or 5th level max. Using inspiration from two of my favorite books which were also used as inspiration for Gamma World (and for Metamorphosis Alpha) the levels would likely be about improving psionic powers through use and practice. Hiero's Journey and The Unforsaken Hiero by Sterling E. Lanier. Somewhat of a mashup between Gamma World and OD&D. It seems fashionable to bash on levels but I think levels are great. It shows progression and works as a milestone. Look at comic books. Superheroes get better and more capable over the years. It just makes sense. I agree with you about Gamma World and levels topping off at 4th or 5th level.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Oct 12, 2021 7:41:01 GMT -5
The second point by geoffrey is:Ability scores in OD&D are limited to 18. All of the ability score creep he is talking about is all completely optional and comes about in everything after OD&D, after the 3LBBs. I have played with just 18 as the max and I have played with the option of 18/00. Play either way is pretty much identical and it is not until much later versions of "D&D" that ability score creep becomes significant. As long as you are rolling 3d6 in order it is a non issue, as 18/00 is extremely rare, a one in 21,600 chance x 1 in 6 of having that 18 appear on the first roll on strength for 3d6 in order, so the real odds are one in 129,600 which makes that level of strength more rare than in the "real world." I believe rolling 3D6 in order versus an alternative ability generation method is the key to this issue as well. Higher scores become much more common and much easier to roll when you increase the number of dice or roll multiple sets of scores or whatever. I have always been a big believer in 3D6 in order.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Oct 12, 2021 7:47:13 GMT -5
The third point by geoffrey is:You could make a good case that Hiero's Journey and The Unforsaken Hiero by Sterling E. Lanier do have alignment, definitely good and evil are present and neutrality, though in such a stark world being neutral is difficult, so the neutrals lean one way or the other. So if I ran Gamma World - alignment would be present, not precisely as presented in OD&D, but present. I like the idea of Warrior Priests as presented by Sterling Lanier. I also love the creatures allies with varying amounts of intelligence and psionics. I don't think he is looking at the big picture on alignment and Gamma World. I agree that survival is of the highest importance in the game. There's also more than one approach to surviving. Some people will recognize that only by banding together and helping one another will survival be the easiest. Sounds like Lawful to me. Others will survive through shifting alliances and will throw their hat in with others from time to time including those of questionable nature. Sounds like Neutral to me. Finally, there are those that survive by might and devastation that will eliminate, rob, and basically run rough shot over everyone and everything. Sounds like Chaotic to me.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Oct 12, 2021 7:59:00 GMT -5
The fourth point by geoffrey is:Again for me this is a non-point, I was using zero XP for killing opponent from the early days in the 1970s. IMC smart players have always sought to avoid combat when possible and the goal in OD&D is exploration, staying alive and bringing back loot. Killing and fighting happen sometimes, but are not sought out by wise players. OD&D is just as deadly as Gamma World. Murder Hobo style of play isn't great for either game.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Oct 12, 2021 8:01:53 GMT -5
The sixth point by geoffrey is:Two points here, firstly OD&D is 3d6 in order versus 4d6, drop the lowest die, in order for Gamma World. Do to this the average stat is noticeably higher in Gamma World, than in OD&D. In OD&D players also do not pick and choose and use their highest score for their constitution. Secondly, running OD&D with you starting Hit Points being your hit points for the game is a good idea, that I have though about, for OD&D but have not yet run it that way. Even if the whole first level party in OD&D all have one Hit Point each, I give zero thought to "balancing" encounters and I do use any monster from the book or from my own fevered imagination at any time. Hence my statement above that OD&D is just as deadly (or more so) than Gamma World. Agreed. This whole issue with "balancing encounters" was never an issue back in the day. That came much later in D&D.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Oct 12, 2021 8:05:25 GMT -5
The eighth point by geoffrey is:I don't really buy this all the way, because I create a lot of my own monsters. The mutated deer(moose) and bears from the books are allies and not enemies as a rule, although they could be enemies. I believe his argument here lacks substance. I have never participated in a fantasy rpg campaign - from D&D, Palladium Fantasy, Talislanta, etc. - where the DM/GM did NOT make up their own monsters.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Oct 12, 2021 8:05:55 GMT -5
That is enough for now, I will come back to this. tick, tock....
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Oct 26, 2021 0:43:08 GMT -5
The fourth point by geoffrey is:Again for me this is a non-point, I was using zero XP for killing opponent from the early days in the 1970s. IMC smart players have always sought to avoid combat when possible and the goal in OD&D is exploration, staying alive and bringing back loot. Killing and fighting happen sometimes, but are not sought out by wise players. OD&D is just as deadly as Gamma World. Murder Hobo style of play isn't great for either game. Murder Hobo is not, IMO, old school, it certainly was not part of the original gaming of the founders. Later games encourage Murder Hobo play and reward it. Not for me, I want nothing to do with it.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Oct 26, 2021 0:47:01 GMT -5
The sixth point by geoffrey is:Two points here, firstly OD&D is 3d6 in order versus 4d6, drop the lowest die, in order for Gamma World. Do to this the average stat is noticeably higher in Gamma World, than in OD&D. In OD&D players also do not pick and choose and use their highest score for their constitution. Secondly, running OD&D with you starting Hit Points being your hit points for the game is a good idea, that I have though about, for OD&D but have not yet run it that way. Even if the whole first level party in OD&D all have one Hit Point each, I give zero thought to "balancing" encounters and I do use any monster from the book or from my own fevered imagination at any time. Hence my statement above that OD&D is just as deadly (or more so) than Gamma World. Agreed. This whole issue with "balancing encounters" was never an issue back in the day. That came much later in D&D. To be clear, as a first level IMC (OD&D) you could run into an ancient dragon capable of wiping the floor of any 30 possible high level 5E characters. It would be insane to attack an ancient dragon IMC and the only sane thing to do is be polite and not offend it. But then the dragons I am currently using are not inherently evil either. In earlier campaigns some were.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Oct 26, 2021 0:48:11 GMT -5
The eighth point by geoffrey is:I don't really buy this all the way, because I create a lot of my own monsters. The mutated deer(moose) and bears from the books are allies and not enemies as a rule, although they could be enemies. I believe his argument here lacks substance. I have never participated in a fantasy rpg campaign - from D&D, Palladium Fantasy, Talislanta, etc. - where the DM/GM did NOT make up their own monsters. Yeah, I agree, plus in D&D only a tiny fraction of the monsters are humanoids.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Oct 26, 2021 0:48:33 GMT -5
That is enough for now, I will come back to this. tick, tock.... I will endeavor to return to this thread and continue this week.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Oct 26, 2021 16:36:49 GMT -5
I will endeavor to return to this thread and continue this week. Nice! I await....
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Post by oldskolgmr on Nov 1, 2021 17:05:33 GMT -5
I'm enjoying reading your thoughts The Perilous Dreamer and The Semi-Retired Gamer. I'm a member at odd74 (this and the Arduin MeWe are where I hang out tho), and I had commented on that topic over there. Keep the spice thoughts flowing, it's good reading.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Nov 1, 2021 18:05:08 GMT -5
The ninth point by geoffrey is: The mutations are a good thing. However, I do not view the absence of spells as a plus. Spell slots are a post OD&D concept, so irrelevant to me. D&D psionics is indeed not very good, if I were going to do psionics I would have to devise my own system.
Each D&D character can be as specially tailored as the referee desires, but this should be due to worker with the player.
Proper level of the spell - takes 2 seconds, you know what works in your campaign. The effect it will have on your campaign, wait what? The consequences if the players gain it, wait what? I gotta be honest, I think this is silly.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Nov 1, 2021 18:09:49 GMT -5
The tenth point by geoffrey is:
I do not agree with any of this. First Blackmoor had high-tech artifacts, any D&D game can do the same. I like fantasy and science-fantasy and science fiction. I do not agree that magic wands and laser rifle are either one, more or less evocative than the other. Any magic item can be mysterious and dangerous and wise players will sometimes choose correctly to have nothing to do with some magic items. It is not true that in D&D there is much less danger and mystery associated with magic items. This is a campaign specific thing, not a game specific thing.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Nov 1, 2021 18:12:53 GMT -5
The eleventh point by geoffrey is: Again, this is not true, any D&D can have as many interesting character races as the ref wants to include and the players have the option of choosing any monster as a PC. Plus any ref can make any creature intelligent if they want to. Gamma World does not have any advantage on D&D in this regard.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Nov 1, 2021 18:26:47 GMT -5
The twelfth point by geoffrey is:
This is just not true at all, not even remotely true. Gamma World 1st edition, not counting the covers is 58 pages, that is 8 1/2 by 11 pages. The truth is that two OD&D pages are equal to one Gamma World page. OD&D the three LBBs are 110 digest sized pages not counting the covers which are 55 pages of 8 1/2 by 11. So OD&D is slightly shorter than Gamma World. I do not know where he got 45 pages at. So this point is just incorrect, because he was trying to compare apples and oranges.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Nov 1, 2021 18:30:03 GMT -5
I will endeavor to return to this thread and continue this week. Nice! I await.... The Semi-Retired Gamer here is a few more for you!
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Nov 1, 2021 18:31:01 GMT -5
I'm enjoying reading your thoughts The Perilous Dreamer and The Semi-Retired Gamer . I'm a member at odd74 (this and the Arduin MeWe are where I hang out tho), and I had commented on that topic over there. Keep the spice thoughts flowing, it's good reading. Thanks, glad you are enjoying it. Feel free to comment.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Nov 1, 2021 18:53:52 GMT -5
The fourth point by geoffrey is:Again for me this is a non-point, I was using zero XP for killing opponent from the early days in the 1970s. IMC smart players have always sought to avoid combat when possible and the goal in OD&D is exploration, staying alive and bringing back loot. Killing and fighting happen sometimes, but are not sought out by wise players. OD&D is just as deadly as Gamma World. Also see point one above about the claim that there are no levels. Here is the XP system and as you can see there are indeed levels, just not named and operating differently that OD&D, but nevertheless, there are levels. Experience Points Required for Bonus ------------------------------------ 3,000 6,000 12,000 25,000 50,000 100,000 200,000 500,000 1,000,000 each additional 1,000,000 Die Roll Bonus -------- -------------------- 1 +1 point to mental strength 2 +1 point to constitution 3 +1 point to dexterity 4 +1 point to charisma 5 +1 point to physical strength 6 +1 point to intelligence 7- 8 +1 to hit in physical combat 9-10 +1 damage inflicted by non-energy weapon employed
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