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Post by Admin Pete on Jul 9, 2015 7:55:40 GMT -5
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Post by Admin Pete on Jul 9, 2015 8:00:59 GMT -5
There is also the 12 Volume Foxfire book set at The Foxfire Series. My parents bought a few of them and then quit saying we already know this stuff, this is the way we grew up. I grew up with some of it. The soap making they refer to below is lye soap made from scratch. Your public library might have them. Here are the contents for the first book. (They are priced now at about $19.95 per copy, which IIRC is $10 more than when they were first published back in the 1970's) The Foxfire Book Price: $19.95 This volume, the original anthology, celebrates the home life and creative history of Appalachia, featuring sections on hog dressing, log cabin building, soap making, basket weaving, planting by the signs, preserving foods, making butter, snake lore, hunting tales, faith healing, and moonshining. Table of Contents: "This is the way I was raised up" Aunt Arie Wood Tools and Skills Building a Log Cabin Chimney Building White Oak Splits Making a Hamper out of White Oak Splits Making a Basket out of White Oak Splits An Old Chair Maker Shows How Rope, Straw, and Feathers are to Sleep on A Quilt is Something Human Soapmaking Cooking on a Fireplace, Dutch Oven, and Wood Stove Daniel Manous Mountain Recipes
Preserving Vegetables
Preserving Fruit Churning Your Own Butter
Slaughtering Hogs Curing and Smoking Hog
Recipes for Hog Weather Signs Planting by the Signs The Buzzard and the Dog
Home Remedies Hunting Dressing and Cooking Wild Animal Foods
Hunting Tales Snake Lore Moonshining as a Fine Art
Faith Healing Hillard Green |
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Post by Admin Pete on Jul 9, 2015 8:04:48 GMT -5
 From here. Not shown: tight wrapping is better than loose, and some people recommend staples or wire to hold the cloth on. |
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Post by The Red Baron on Jul 9, 2015 9:48:13 GMT -5
I play torch 40', light 30', sword 20'.
Torches last 6 exploration turns and take but one combat round to light (this is assumed to be done during the rest turn, however).
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Post by merctime on Jul 9, 2015 11:56:42 GMT -5
I roll off of Delving Deeper rule, which is probably OD&D's rule, to stay simple and consistent. Off-hand I think it's torches light 30' and burn for 6 turns. As DD uses a ten minute exploration turn, but a one minute combat turn, I don't fuss about how long it takes to light it; freely light a torch along with whatever action out of combat, but it's THE action in combat though.
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Post by Von on Jul 19, 2015 11:07:10 GMT -5
To my shame I have yet to find a way to implement the lifespan of torches in games which doesn't boil down to rather unpleasant and spitty "You didn't say you'd lit a torch so you haven't" behaviour on my part as Referee. In keeping with my lackadaisical not-really-into-the-nitty-gritty approach I have "your torch has gone out" as a go-to 'fumble' or cock-up in combat, and bring it up if characters are engaging in derring-do around water or if there's a draught or something.
It's something I'd have to remember to introduce and heavily foreground and train myself into keeping track of before it'd really work well in my games. I'd like to give it a try but I'm lazy and haven't really had to care before.
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todd
Prospector
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Post by todd on Jul 19, 2015 11:30:25 GMT -5
I think I saw this in Torchbearer but it might have been somewhere else but the idea was to abstract time so that on any occasion the players roll dice to do something, that constituted an exploration round passing, regardless of the "realistic" time that task would take, and just tick off the rounds elapsed.
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Post by The Red Baron on Jul 19, 2015 13:06:08 GMT -5
To my shame I have yet to find a way to implement the lifespan of torches in games which doesn't boil down to rather unpleasant and spitty "You didn't say you'd lit a torch so you haven't" behaviour on my part as Referee. In keeping with my lackadaisical not-really-into-the-nitty-gritty approach I have "your torch has gone out" as a go-to 'fumble' or cock-up in combat, and bring it up if characters are engaging in derring-do around water or if there's a draught or something. It's something I'd have to remember to introduce and heavily foreground and train myself into keeping track of before it'd really work well in my games. I'd like to give it a try but I'm lazy and haven't really had to care before. Not if you're running TU&WA dungeon exploration. 2 moves per turn, 1 turn of rest per 5 moves adding up to nice 1 hour chunks. The characters can move 10 total moves, then have to sit around for a turn and take a breather. That's when you say "cross off a torch, guys". The only time you have to worry about tracking time is when the chaarcters get into a fight at the 5 turn mark, then they only have 10 rounds to fight before their torches go out. |
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Post by tetramorph on Jul 19, 2015 14:04:24 GMT -5
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Post by The Red Baron on Jul 19, 2015 15:01:22 GMT -5
I would give it a 50% chance of going out if dropped.
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todd
Prospector
Posts: 75
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Post by todd on Jul 19, 2015 18:08:45 GMT -5
I would give it a 50% chance of going out if dropped. Me personally, I see torches as hardier than that. What about d6 versus the rounds of light remaining? Roll under, it stays lit. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jul 19, 2015 23:32:28 GMT -5
What about d6 versus the rounds of light remaining? Roll under, it stays lit. Not to nitpick, but... oh, who am I kidding? To be perfectly nitpicky  you presumably mean: d6 versus the dungeon exploration turns of light remaining. I.e., the burn time of a torch would likely be measured in dungeon exploration turns, while a combat round is an abstraction of no fixed duration; there can be many rounds of blows exchanged in each one minute combat turn. |
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Post by bestialwarlust on Jul 20, 2015 9:21:06 GMT -5
I'm somewhat lazy when it comes to making players track resources. It can be fun to a point but mostly I find it tedious and doesn't always add to the fun of the game. I always assume that pc's aren't stupid and a torch is light when they go into a dark place. My first question is "Who's carrying the torch?" and go from there.
I try to stay away from as much pixel bitching and "GOTCHA! you didn't say that explicitly!" as much as possible. I think that's what gives a lot of old style non skill point games a bad reputation.
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Post by The Red Baron on Jul 20, 2015 9:44:59 GMT -5
I'm somewhat lazy when it comes to making players track resources. It can be fun to a point but mostly I find it tedious and doesn't always add to the fun of the game. I always assume that pc's aren't stupid and a torch is light when they go into a dark place. My first question is "Who's carrying the torch?" and go from there. I try to stay away from as much pixel bitching and "GOTCHA! you didn't say that explicitly!" as much as possible. I think that's what gives a lot of old style non skill point games a bad reputation. My point is that it isn't tedious, but rather the very model of simplicity, to track torches because of the mechanics od&d employs for dungeon exploration. Each turn characters may proceed 2 full moves through the dungeon. For every 5 turns of exploration the party must rest a turn. This breaks exploration into periods of one hour, comprised of 10 moves and 10 minutes of rest. After the 6th such rest turn, its time to ask the players "does anyone still have torches", and see if you caught them with their pants down. |
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todd
Prospector
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Post by todd on Jul 21, 2015 10:47:26 GMT -5
What about d6 versus the rounds of light remaining? Roll under, it stays lit. Not to nitpick, but... oh, who am I kidding? To be perfectly nitpicky you presumably mean: d6 versus the dungeon exploration turns of light remaining. I.e., the burn time of a torch would likely be measured in dungeon exploration turns, while a combat round is an abstraction of no fixed duration; there can be many rounds of blows exchanged in each one minute combat turn. Nitpick away! Yep, that's what I meant-- exploration turns of light remaining. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Jun 4, 2017 23:35:25 GMT -5
Foxfire Book 2 : ghost stories, spring wild plant foods, spinning and weaving, midwifing, burial customs, corn shuckin's, wagon making and more affairs of plain living
Foxfire Book 3 : animal care, banjos and dulcimers, hide tanning, summer and fall wild plant foods, butter churns, ginseng, and still more affairs of plain living
Foxfire Book 4 : water systems, fiddle making, logging, gardening, sassafras tea, wood carving, and further affairs of plain living
Foxfire Book 5 : ironmaking, blacksmithing, flintlock rifles, bear hunting, and other affairs of plain living
Foxfire Book 6 : shoemaking, gourd banjos, and songbows, one hundred toys and games, wooden locks, a water powered sawmill, and other affairs of just plain living
Foxfire Book 7 : traditions of mountain religious heritage, covering ministers, revivals, baptisms, gospel-singing, faith healing, camp meetings, snake handling, and more.
Foxfire Book 8 : southern folk pottery from pug mills, ash glazes, and groundhog kilns to face jugs, churns, and roosters; mule swapping and chicken fighting
Foxfire Book 9 : general stores, the Jud Nelson wagon, a praying rock, a Catawba Indian potter - and haint tales, quilting, home cures, and log cabins revisited
Foxfire Book 10 : railroad lore, boardinghouses, Depression-era Appalachia, chair making, whirligigs, snakes canes, and gourd art
Foxfire Book 11 : the old homeplace, wild plant uses, preserving and cooking food, hunting stories, fishing, and more affairs of plain living
Foxfire Book 12 : war stories, Cherokee traditions, summer camps, square dancing, crafts, and more affairs of plain living
The Foxfire Book of Simple Living
TABLE OF CONTENTS
Fifty Years and Counting
An introduction from Ann Moore, Foxfire President and Executive Director
Making Real Human Connections
A note from editors Kaye Carver Collins and Jonathan Blackstock
Wisdom of Our Elders
Livin’ High On The Hog
VANISHING ARTS
Community and Gratitude
The Art of Making Cornshuck Dolls and Real Connections
An interview with Beth Kelley Zorbanos
Mountain Folk Art at Its Peak
An interview with Local folk artist Eric Legge
Mother Vine and King Kudzu
An interview with Kudzu artists Joleen Oh and Cleve Phillips
Making What We Need By Hand
Making Soap, Living Clean, and Giving Thanks
A day of crafting with Jenny, T. J., Briar, and Moses Stevens
How to Make Rope the Old-Timey Way
Kermit Rood teaches students to make old-fashioned rope
Joe Williams’ Point of Life!
Joe Williams tells of his experience making bark berry buckets
The “Gourd” Life
An interview with gourd artist Priscilla Wilson
The Art of Making Furniture by Hand
John Roper shares his love for wood, tools, and a vanishing art
Storytelling
Tiger Mountain’s Storyteller
An interview with renowned local storyteller, Janie P. Taylor
Legends That Will Never Die
Cherokee Storyteller, Davy Arch
The Oral Tradition: Preserving Tales that Shaped a Nation
Jerry Wolfe, Cherokee Storyteller, shares stories of the Cherokee People
Mawmaw’s Stories
Mountain tales told by Bonnie Shirley
Blacksmithing
The Hammer and the Forge
Dan Maxwell on the trade of blacksmithing
David Burress: The Makings of a True Appalachian Blacksmith
An interview with John C. Campbell, Folk School Ferrier
Hunting and Protecting
The Art of Making Turkey Calls
An interview with Dale Holland, North Carolina turkey-call maker
Traditional Weaponry
William Swimmer demonstrates construction of primitive weaponry
Wisdom of Our Elders
Virtuous Living
THE WORLD IS WATCHING
Hollywood Comes a Calling
The Great Locomotive Chase
Local residents on the production of the 1956 film
Deliverance Shall Come
A community responds to the 1972 film
“I never expected the novel would be published.”
An interview with North Georgia author Olive Ann Burns
The Making of the Foxfire Play and Movie
Foxfire students’ experiences
Appalachia Goodbye
Laura Monk and High Cotton create a video at the Foxfire Heritage Center
Wisdom of Our Elders
Making Do With What We Have
PICKIN’ AND GRINNIN’
Oliver Rice and Curtis Blackwell
Two old-time musicians reminisce
The Blackwell Tradition
An interview with second-generation bluegrass musician, Shane Blackwell
I’ve Been Everywhere, Man
An interview with traditional bluegrass musician Rodney Worley
The Art of a Luthier: Making the Lord’s Trees Sing
An interview with Danny White
Wisdom of Our Elders
My Most Valuable Possession
REMEMBERING WHEN THE WORLD WAS BLACK AND WHITE
“I’ve Traveled a Bit, Yet I Keep Coming Back Like Iron Filings to a Magnet”
An interview with James Still
The Big Cat
Baseball star Johnny Mize recalls his raising in the Appalachian foothills
Sock Suppers, Cake Walks, Cotton Pickin’, and A Water Lily Quilt
Frances Harbin shares her memories
Front Porch Stories
An interview with Edgar Owens
Hearts Touched and Healed
An interview with Lois and Clarence Martin
Self-Proclaimed “Black Sheep”
Mischievous Antics with Malcolm Dillard
“It Has Been Wonderful, Really!”
The Unique Life of Beanie Ramey
From the Mountains to the Mansion and Back Home
An Interview with Zell and Shirley Miller
“A Little Good in Everybody”
An abundance of love from Susie Hembree Dockins
Wisdom of Our Elders
“Train up a child in the way he should go”: Advice on Child Rearing
Women of Appalachia
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Post by ripx187 on Jun 5, 2017 15:23:58 GMT -5
Thanks for bumping this thread up, PD. I hadn't seen it.
I collect odd books like this, though I don't believe that I've got any Foxfire, I'll have to look into this. Forgotten Arts & Crafts, Wilderness Survival Guides, American Indian crafts and Depression Methods are among my favorites. Simple living comes in handy regardless of income.
My father raised us to remember these things and see their value. My grandfather believed that electricity was a fad, and preferred the old ways more often than not. He had a tractor, but for tedious jobs such as picking corn, he took the horse and cart out to the fields, his logic being that the horse just kept following him, he didn't have to stop working to go move the truck.
I do the same thing for my children, I raise them to be self-reliant and to know where they came from. It has been hard to adjust to city life, but I am doing my best. For vacation we tend to go camping, there are many important skills that one can learn from primitive camping, the most important being self-reliant.
In regards to light, we have modern battery-powered lanterns, but we leave them at home. Those things are terrible! They do nothing but draw bugs and batteries are very expensive compared to other forms of fuel. Instead, we use railroad lanterns. Not only is the fuel cheaper (and a hell of a lot cleaner!), but the light doesn't draw insects and doesn't kill your night vision.
Torches, these are easy to make, and we've done it! They suck. The fire itself blinds you, in fiction, they always have the person in the lead carrying the torch, but it should be the person in the back, but it does get passed around a lot. The torch-bearer really can't see very far, you can't even see the ground which is a problem, and it is harder than you think to hold a torch above your head and out of your eyes. Even a lantern will do the same thing unless it is fixed with a shield, you don't want the light to be too bright, just bright enough.
Cab drivers who drove at night had to keep the flame itself out of their eyes, seeing the ground was imperative because of potholes. Nobody wanted to drive at night, even with a light source, because moving around is dangerous. People did it, but people also got lost on their own properties and drowned in rivers.
In regards to cave exploration, torches aren't the best idea. The best option is a candle, low levels of light to highlight your surroundings. They told you more than just your surroundings, the flame is sensitive to changes in air quality, professional miners preferred candles to lanterns, it wasn't just budget concerns. Even today you'll see a lot of miners smoking, they watch the smoke to see the air flow. Once battery operated light came about, that is when people started carrying canaries.
One would be shocked at how deep the old-timers got inside of caves, and these weren't professional spelunkers, these were just everyday locals who took some time off and wanted to see things that nobody else had seen. They used candles, and they'd climb deep inside of these things until they either got scared, ran out of time, or could progress no more because of the muck. They'd mark their spot with their name and usually the date, and these writings are still in there.
What does this have to do with D&D games? Nothing. We're dealing with fantasy, it is just easier to have tunnels that you can stand upright in, the rule-of-cool dictates a lot of stuff! I do give them raw caves to explore when I want to. Passages that aren't 5'x5'. I'll also get picky about supplies if that is the game, but we rarely play that game.
Typically, I'll do the math and how many torches you bring in dictates how far in one can go and get back out again. I'm also a creep, demihumans don't need as much light to see in the dark as men do, and once a demihuman gets beyond the range of men, the underground world becomes more habitable for them, fungus and stones radiate light that they can see, but humans and normal elves cannot.
Elves can see normally at night above ground, starlight is enough, but it is reversed, the Dwarvish folk needs to carry a light source.
Candles are preferred, lanterns break, but the oil can be used to make a torch. To light a torch you only need one stick, but you've got to bring enough cloth and fuel with you. The problem with light is that it gives your position away. Enemy sentries typically sit in the dark, living spaces are lit, but that is it. Golin will sometimes light passages to help sentries see intruders sneaking around in the dark (if they are paying attention), so light itself is part of their survival plan.
The players tried to utilize the Permanent Light Spell, which works great in unoccupied caves and dungeons, but since you've got to put it out to sneak around, and recast it, it can be terribly expensive.
That is the game that we prefer to play. One of stealth. I have also found that it is difficult to put a torch out, the fastest way is with water, a slower way is to smother it with dirt, the slowest way is to tap and roll it around on stone, which is also noisy. I don't think that I've ever used these experiments in a game before. Maybe stripping it off with a sword real quick and stamping it out would work? That might be a fun game!
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Post by Admin Pete on Jun 5, 2017 16:39:56 GMT -5
Great post ripx187, thank you for all the great information. Have an Exalt! I saw a post title elsewhere and was reminded of this so I bumped it with a little extra. |
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Post by Mighty Darci on Jun 13, 2017 7:11:00 GMT -5
This is great and I like that fact that we really know approximately how long torches burn.
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Post by scottanderson on Jun 19, 2017 15:27:46 GMT -5
Torches are not flashlights. They don't run on a battery. Not that a modern pocket torch is completely predictable, either!
I don't like this level of detail, but you could do it like this:
Torches last for three Turns. Then on each subsequent Turn, roll 1d6. On a 1, the torch runs out. You could get an hour and a half or longer out of a really good torch, or you could get only a half hour out of a crummy one.
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Post by Admin Pete on Jun 19, 2017 17:44:26 GMT -5
Torches are not flashlights. They don't run on a battery. Not that a modern pocket torch is completely predictable, either! I don't like this level of detail, but you could do it like this: Torches last for three Turns. Then on each subsequent Turn, roll 1d6. On a 1, the torch runs out. You could get an hour and a half or longer out of a really good torch, or you could get only a half hour out of a crummy one. That is pretty cool, I generally just assume an hour. Same as I used back in 1975, it was kind of cool to realize I was in the right ballpark. Some campaigned for four hours, but on the basis of being the only farm boy in the group I convinced them that was not reasonable. |
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Post by Irish Warrior on Jun 21, 2017 9:09:39 GMT -5
I have always said that a torch burns for five turns. That limits the time in dungeons so my players also carry lanterns as well, Light spells cast on objects become quite useful as one goes deeper into dungeons. Just don't forget that the spell can be broken by your opponent. I have had players cast Light spells on the end of ten-foot poles and on a 50' foot rope and many other objects depending on what they wanted to do.
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Post by Robert the Black on Jun 27, 2017 13:38:46 GMT -5
My players (usually about 10 strong) are big on hiring help, these helpers do things like carry torches and other supplies to leave the party free to fight if needed. Several are left outside the dungeon to watch the horses and pack mules. Anyone that doesn't show up is assumed to be with the livestock and those hirelings. The hirelings have swords and shields and are taught specific defensive positions and are only expected to defend themselves aside from their primary duties, like being torch bearers. Players generally carry 3-5 torches each in case they get separated and the torch bearers carry 10 each. Usually 4-5 torch bearers in the dungeon. My players also carry wooden practice swords on one pack mule and hirelings are expected to spar with PC's to improve their skills any time they are in "safe" locations for any length of time. If a hireling is killed in service or dies for any reason while in their employment the widows and children are treated very well and they usually have no trouble retaining hirelings long term.
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Post by Admin Pete on Jul 15, 2017 13:34:50 GMT -5
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Post by captaincrumbcake on Jul 15, 2017 17:52:52 GMT -5
When I first started playing back in 1980, we quickly learned the value of Fire Beetle glands. Harvested them. Used them as exclusively as we could underground. Wham! no smoke, no runny eyes/noses, no smell warning creatures that we were mucking about. Lasts up to 6 days, emits illumination 10' radius. Put that in a bulls-eye lantern! P.9, AD&D Monster Manual. 1st print 1977 (mines a 3rd though). Perfectly use able in the OD&D system. Matter resolved.  |
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Post by sixdemonbag on Jul 15, 2017 18:20:22 GMT -5
When I first started playing back in 1980, we quickly learned the value of Fire Beetle glands. Harvested them. Used them as exclusively as we could underground. Wham! no smoke, no runny eyes/noses, no smell warning creatures that we were mucking about. Lasts up to 6 days, emits illumination 10' radius. Put that in a bulls-eye lantern! P.9, AD&D Monster Manual. 1st print 1977 (mines a 3rd though). Perfectly use able in the OD&D system. Matter resolved. Fire Beetle Glands! Git yer Fire Beetle Glands here! Going fast!! One time only!!! Use them as a lightsource or as a spice in your chili stew! Delving dungeons will never be the same! Don't leave home without one! Act now! Our operators are standing by... |
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Post by Admin Pete on Jul 15, 2017 19:36:02 GMT -5
My players are fond of using the spell Continual Light on things like round flat stones, the end of 10' poles and other useful places and they can be covered if you want, when you want. You can limit the amount of light by creatively covering the stone or whatever you are using. You can also cast Continual Light on objects and place them inside lanterns.
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Post by sixdemonbag on Jul 15, 2017 19:44:33 GMT -5
My players are fond of using the spell Continual Light on things like round flat stones, the end of 10' poles and other useful places and they can be covered if you want, when you want. You can limit the amount of light by creatively covering the stone or whatever you are using. You can also cast Continual Light on objects and place them inside lanterns. I'm really liking all these creative ways to navigate dungeons. Hmm, maybe a thread of unconventional ways to facilitate exploration is in order? Maybe similar to the "favorite chase scenes" one. That one was fun to read. |
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Post by scottanderson on Jul 16, 2017 20:20:47 GMT -5
Oh geez, we just fought fire beetles last night and I didn't know this! Next session - same dungeon - I'm going to go pop those suckers out and put them in my backpack.
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Torches
Jul 18, 2017 11:10:46 GMT -5
Post by Mighty Darci on Jul 18, 2017 11:10:46 GMT -5
Oh geez, we just fought fire beetles last night and I didn't know this! Next session - same dungeon - I'm going to go pop those suckers out and put them in my backpack. Yeah, I am going to remember that one too. |
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you presumably mean: d6 versus the dungeon exploration turns of light remaining.
