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Post by Admin Pete on Sept 10, 2017 19:34:23 GMT -5
This post is from The Perilous Dreamer from back in 2017 when he was the Admin.
OK let me try this again without stepping on toes this time. Hard to do when you don't know where the toes are, but I digress.
So I have been thinking about the amount of treasure in a dungeon and I thought that looking at it in terms of the amount of treasure and magic treasure per 1000 rooms vs level of the dungeon would be an interesting topic.
So I spent quite a bit of time back in early June of this year, thinking about the topic.
I looked at things a bit and came up with roughly how my dungeons work and I was curious of how other dungeons work. I have always considered my dungeons to be high magic, but I have recently come to believe that I am on the light magic end of the spectrum, with the knowledge that some use 100 times+ the amount that I do.
So here are the numbers I came up with for my campaigns both bitd circa 1975 and currently:
Levels 1-3: out of each 1000 rooms about 5% will contain some treasure and out of those 50 rooms with some treasure 5 will contain 1 or more magic items
Levels 4-5: out of each 1000 rooms about 8% will contain some treasure and out of those 80 rooms with some treasure 8 will contain 1 or more magic items
Levels 6-7: out of each 1000 rooms about 10% will contain some treasure and out of those 100 rooms with some treasure 10 will contain 1 or more magic items
Levels 8-9: out of each 1000 rooms about 12% will contain some treasure and out of those 120 rooms with some treasure 12 will contain 1 or more magic items
Levels 10-12: out of each 1000 rooms about 15% will contain some treasure and out of those 150 rooms with some treasure 15 will contain 1 or more magic items
Levels 13-100: out of each 1000 rooms about 20% will contain some treasure and out of those 200 rooms with some treasure 25 will contain 1 or more magic items
Levels 101-500: out of each 1000 rooms about 25% will contain some treasure and out of those 250 rooms with some treasure 35 will contain 1 or more magic items
Levels 501- and down: out of each 1000 rooms about 30% will contain some treasure and out of those 300 rooms with some treasure 50 will contain 1 or more magic items
This is roughly what I use with a minimum dungeon size of 1000 rooms per level and a minimum number of levels of 100 levels. IMO this would constitute a high-magic campaign. If a party of up to 20 regardless of class clears at least half of a dungeon level, they should all level up.
Levels 1-500: about 10% of the rooms will contain monsters of 1 hit die up to the most powerful creatures of 20+ hit dice, number encountered may range from 1 up to an underground city at the levels below 15. Up to 8 hit die monsters can be encountered on level 1. Unique specimens of almost any monsters of up to double the normal number of hit dice may be encountered. It is always possible that any given monster is Tuckerized. It is possible that monsters may be willing to trade magic for magic so it is always worth keeping magic that you cannot use. Temporary alliances are also possible and may be a consideration. Attacking everything you meet is known as suicide.
Levels 501+: about 30% of the rooms will contain monsters of 10 hit die up to the most powerful creatures of 20+ hit dice, number encountered may range from 1 up to an underground city. Monsters of under 10 hit die on these levels are slaves of higher level monsters. Under some circumstances arming them and leading a rebellion may be a possibility. These are the levels were the most valuable treasures are found.
Please note that a triage method of dungeon clearing is needed and players are not expected to clear every room. Face to face clearing a dungeon can proceed quickly so I am substantially modifying this for the PbP game noted down forum.
I do know from reading in various places that Arneson was stingier with treasure and experience than Gygax and thought Gygax was too easy.
As noted above about 5 rooms in a 1000 will have magic items on Levels 1-3 and the magic goes up as you go deeper. So 0.5% on Levels 1-3. Finding it is implementing effective searching strategies and a triage method to find the important spots. I don't use any tables to create a dungeon not now or in the past.
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Sept 10, 2017 21:35:41 GMT -5
I fell on the stingy side meself. Couldn't imagine a madman or mastermind (always had to have a major Bad Guy) leaving really good stuff out of arm's reach. The only treasures, other than that, were defenses and weapons found near the corpses of poorly educated delvers who had thought such would protect them.
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Post by scottanderson on Sept 11, 2017 0:12:34 GMT -5
Gee whiz, call me Monty Haul I guess. Everyone gets consumables fairly regularly, everyone gets a cool signature item pretty early, and armor and weapons with plusses are fairly common.
Even if the WORLD is low-magic, it's fun to play with the cool toys. Magic items keep players coming back for more!
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Post by sixdemonbag on Sept 11, 2017 1:28:18 GMT -5
Gee whiz, call me Monty Haul I guess. Everyone gets consumables fairly regularly, everyone gets a cool signature item pretty early, and armor and weapons with plusses are fairly common. Even if the WORLD is low-magic, it's fun to play with the cool toys. Magic items keep players coming back for more! That's much how I feel. Magic items are the "crack" of D&D. Gotta keep 'em comin' back for more of that sweet, sweet loot!! Monsters, magic items, and buckets of gold are what separates D&D from a more mundane wargame. Couple those things with some delicious XP for improving in combat which will lead to encounters with more and better fantasy elements and before you know it, you have a full blown addiction! I know that's how 10-year-old me got hooked. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Sept 11, 2017 6:52:41 GMT -5
I like to give players the opportunity for a significant magic item every 2-4 levels or so. The size of the dungeon or the number of rooms per level doesn't really come into play. What do you consider to be a significant magic item? |
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Post by Admin Pete on Sept 11, 2017 6:55:34 GMT -5
Gee whiz, call me Monty Haul I guess. Everyone gets consumables fairly regularly, everyone gets a cool signature item pretty early, and armor and weapons with pluses are fairly common. Even if the WORLD is low-magic, it's fun to play with the cool toys. Magic items keep players coming back for more! In terms of all the classes what do you mean by "gets consumables fairly regularly", more detail please? What do you mean by a "cool signature item" examples by class please? How soon would everyone in the party that can use magic armor and weapons get them? |
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Post by scottanderson on Sept 11, 2017 7:26:59 GMT -5
It varies, really. But potions and scrolls are common. Everyone usually carries one or two potions - and not just healing potions. Random potions. You never know what you will get or how you will use it.
Miscellaneous magic items. Decanter of Endless Water, for instance. Loads of uses. A wand of Magic Missile with just a few uses - great for spellcaster wars. a Necklace of Fireballs with one left. the Deck of Many Things, I have used that a couple of times and it's always memorable. The best stuff is powerful but not reusable, because it forces the players to decide when to use it up.
+1 armor can happen starting around level 2 and 3. So can +1 weapons.
But usually the good early stuff is something I design especially for one character or another. There are a couple of examples I have on my little website that I can share:
Requiem for the Lost and the Rod of Lonnaiocht Nua. These are both signature items and they tell a story about the world. There's another one I just handed out but I have not written up for my blog. A white longbow named gaoth ban o' thuidh, that gets a +3 against orcish and gnoles. Gaoth ban o' thuidh is an Anglicization of the Irish Gaelic "white blitzing winds." There is no direct translation for "blitzing." If you put it back into Google Translate, you get "windy wind o'clock!" 
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Sept 11, 2017 11:18:33 GMT -5
I fell on the stingy side meself. Couldn't imagine a madman or mastermind (always had to have a major Bad Guy) leaving really good stuff out of arm's reach. The only treasures, other than that, were defenses and weapons found near the corpses of poorly educated delivers who had thought such would protect them. You sir are truly old school and I exalt thee! |
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Sept 11, 2017 11:31:33 GMT -5
Gee whiz, call me Monty Haul I guess. Everyone gets consumables fairly regularly, everyone gets a cool signature item pretty early, and armor and weapons with plusses are fairly common. Even if the WORLD is low-magic, it's fun to play with the cool toys. Magic items keep players coming back for more! They say confession is good for the soul and at least you are open about it. I have noted that all teenagers go through a Monty Haul stage, but we started in our mid 30's so we went straight to a more serious game, which is what works for us. I put in a lot less in the way of magic items than PD does. I don't give out an artifact but once every 25+ game years and expect to be 5th or 6th level to get both magic armor and a magic sword. What you call consumables are not regular and when you get them you hoard them for dire need. My players like to feel like they earn everything with blood, sweat and tears. Monty Haul is not for me, but if you and your players are still having fun go for it. |
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Sept 11, 2017 11:37:10 GMT -5
I take it that your giant are about 1000 feet tall and drink tens of thousands of gallons of liquids at one sitting?!  |
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Post by The Bloody Nine on Sept 11, 2017 11:39:38 GMT -5
I like to give players the opportunity for a significant magic item every 2-4 levels or so. The size of the dungeon or the number of rooms per level doesn't really come into play. Nobody else asked so I will, so if you have a small dungeon say 5 levels and 30 rooms per level and you have a larger dungeon say 10 levels and 50 rooms per level, they would have exactly the same amount of treasure and magic? |
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Post by sixdemonbag on Sept 11, 2017 12:42:27 GMT -5
I like to give players the opportunity for a significant magic item every 2-4 levels or so. The size of the dungeon or the number of rooms per level doesn't really come into play. What do you consider to be a significant magic item? I use M&T, Greyhawk, and the DMG as starting points for inspiration or for when I'm feeling lazy and just want to roll on a table. |
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Post by sixdemonbag on Sept 11, 2017 12:48:30 GMT -5
I like to give players the opportunity for a significant magic item every 2-4 levels or so. The size of the dungeon or the number of rooms per level doesn't really come into play. Nobody else asked so I will, so if you have a small dungeon say 5 levels and 30 rooms per level and you have a larger dungeon say 10 levels and 50 rooms per level, they would have exactly the same amount of treasure and magic? No. The larger one could have zero treasure. Or, it could have three times as much. Or, they could be same. Depends on the particular dungeon really. By levels, I am referring to PC levels. I want the players to each get something significant every couple levels or so. Somewhere in the 2-4 range works for me. As for potions and scrolls, being consumable, they appear more often because they are fun to use. May as well play a historical skirmish war-game if you want to strip the world of commonly found magic. |
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Post by sixdemonbag on Sept 11, 2017 14:07:03 GMT -5
For myself, the beauty of OD&D, is that you can play a monty haul campaign if you wish. Or, a world with a preprogrammed 0.0000001% chance of magic per "room" or "level" or whatever algorithm you choose is totally possible too. Even having no magic at all will work just fine. I just know from my experience, that magic is central to D&D and is loads of fun for DMs and players alike. It doesn't even have to come from dungeons (mine usually don't). They can be sought after specifically, they can be rewards from high-level NPCs, they could be crafted, or yes even just "found."
There is no one correct way to do things, obviously. PDs preference for scarcity sounds really interesting and I'd certainly play in that system. I'm not real picky when it comes to these things. I just listen to the players and try to give them what they want within reason, more or less.
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Post by scottanderson on Sept 11, 2017 14:23:42 GMT -5
It doesn't feel Monty haul to me. We're not killing hatchling dragons and so falling into a hundred thousand GP piles. There are certain items which distort the game and I try to avoid those. Things like portable holes, fully-charged wands, anything that allows flying.
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Post by mao on Sept 11, 2017 15:36:07 GMT -5
Ok, I confess, I don't have a fascination for charts and tables most of you seem to have but I'm really surprised at the idea of random treasure in a dungeon. I place everything purposely. I also use non standard (non scroll or potion) Items prob 70% of the time. That's what makes games great is everyone coming to the table in different ways. Sure makes it less boring.
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Post by Admin Pete on Sept 11, 2017 16:20:00 GMT -5
What do you consider to be a significant magic item? I use M&T, Greyhawk, and the DMG as starting points for inspiration or for when I'm feeling lazy and just want to roll on a table. Would still like to know what you consider to be a significant magic item? Maybe I should ask why a +3 Magic Sword is not considered a significant magic item? |
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Post by Admin Pete on Sept 11, 2017 16:23:11 GMT -5
For myself, the beauty of OD&D, is that you can play a monty haul campaign if you wish. Or, a world with a preprogrammed 0.0000001% chance of magic per "room" or "level" or whatever algorithm you choose is totally possible too. Even having no magic at all will work just fine. I just know from my experience, that magic is central to D&D and is loads of fun for DMs and players alike. It doesn't even have to come from dungeons (mine usually don't). They can be sought after specifically, they can be rewards from high-level NPCs, they could be crafted, or yes even just "found." There is no one correct way to do things, obviously. PDs preference for scarcity sounds really interesting and I'd certainly play in that system. I'm not real picky when it comes to these things. I just listen to the players and try to give them what they want within reason, more or less. I have found IMC that players value magic items more when they are hard to come by. Now my magic swords are all intelligent as are dwarven axes and clerical maces, I figure if it is rare it should be good and unique. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Sept 11, 2017 16:26:54 GMT -5
It doesn't feel Monty haul to me. We're not killing hatchling dragons and so falling into a hundred thousand GP piles. There are certain items which distort the game and I try to avoid those. Things like portable holes, fully-charged wands, anything that allows flying. I make a random roll for the number of charges a wand has, love portable holes since it is some much fun to see what players will try to do with it and I don't worry about flying either since some places you have to fly to get there. BTW the first person to mention Monty Haul was you, no one was making that accusation, although after you through it out there one member ribbed you a bit about it. I thought it was funny, I would hope that you did too. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Sept 11, 2017 16:31:10 GMT -5
Ok, I confess, I don't have a fascination for charts and tables most of you seem to have but I'm really surprised at the idea of random treasure in a dungeon. I place everything purposely. I also use non standard (non scroll or potion) Items prob 70% of the time. That's what makes games great is everyone coming to the table in dif ways. Sure makes it less boring. While I don't use tables, I place things both purposefully and randomly (by random I mean something odd that makes you go Hmmmm). |
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Post by sixdemonbag on Sept 11, 2017 18:34:25 GMT -5
Gee whiz, call me Monty Haul I guess. Everyone gets consumables fairly regularly, everyone gets a cool signature item pretty early, and armor and weapons with plusses are fairly common. Even if the WORLD is low-magic, it's fun to play with the cool toys. Magic items keep players coming back for more! I have noted that all teenagers go through a Monty Haul stage Yikes. Pretty harsh. That's a whole rack of ribs right there. |
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Post by sixdemonbag on Sept 11, 2017 18:38:56 GMT -5
What do you consider to be a significant magic item? I use M&T, Greyhawk, and the DMG as starting points for inspiration or for when I'm feeling lazy and just want to roll on a table. Would still like to know what you consider to be a significant magic item? Maybe I should ask why a +3 Magic Sword is not considered a significant magic item? A +3 Magic Sword is one of the most powerful items in the 3lbbs. That seems pretty significant to me. That's the type of item a name-level fighter would love to have and would be hard to replace. |
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Post by sixdemonbag on Sept 11, 2017 18:52:09 GMT -5
For myself, the beauty of OD&D, is that you can play a monty haul campaign if you wish. Or, a world with a preprogrammed 0.0000001% chance of magic per "room" or "level" or whatever algorithm you choose is totally possible too. Even having no magic at all will work just fine. I just know from my experience, that magic is central to D&D and is loads of fun for DMs and players alike. It doesn't even have to come from dungeons (mine usually don't). They can be sought after specifically, they can be rewards from high-level NPCs, they could be crafted, or yes even just "found." There is no one correct way to do things, obviously. PDs preference for scarcity sounds really interesting and I'd certainly play in that system. I'm not real picky when it comes to these things. I just listen to the players and try to give them what they want within reason, more or less. I have found IMC that players value magic items more when they are hard to come by. Now my magic swords are all intelligent as are dwarven axes and clerical maces, I figure if it is rare it should be good and unique. I agree. But 0.5% or 1 in every 200 rooms is too rare for my taste. If it was a steak, I'd send it back lol. So, a useful magic item every couple character levels or so for each PC works well for us. At that pace, name level PCs have aquired a handful of really cool, powerful items to play and do creative things with. The consumables are strewn about along the way haphazardly. I don't put %'s or ratios to anything. I only roll on tables when it adds excitement or to mix things up. As a rule, I don't much like tables. Sometimes they can be really fun though. I hand-pick and hand-place all interesting items. I draw maps too. If PCs are having a hard time finding anything good, then I've failed as a DM to adapt to the table's playstyle. Being a DM is like playing jazz. Sometimes you gotta just go with the flow. Now, it sounds like your table enjoys clearing 1000 room levels which is pretty neat too. |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Sept 11, 2017 21:16:24 GMT -5
As I said in the other thread that was deleted for some reason  , See first line of the OP above. I like to give players the opportunity for a significant magic item every 2-4 levels or so. The size of the dungeon or the number of rooms per level doesn't really come into play. What do you consider to be a significant magic item? Horn of Destroying Entire Universe with three charges. Must have an Endurance of 25 to blow the horn, which then destroys entire universe, all in-game gods, and the Traveller game being run on Saturdays. After use, the horn has one fewer charges. Dat significant enough? |
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Post by scottanderson on Sept 11, 2017 21:44:50 GMT -5
Oh that's funny. That's a magic item you can't actually use! I have one of those in my current campaign world but the PCs don't know about it.
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Post by sixdemonbag on Sept 11, 2017 21:55:48 GMT -5
I love the sweet irony of having 3 charges!
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Sept 13, 2017 20:57:08 GMT -5
See first line of the OP above. What do you consider to be a significant magic item? Horn of Destroying Entire Universe with three charges. Must have an Endurance of 25 to blow the horn, which then destroys entire universe, all in-game gods, and the Traveller game being run on Saturdays. After use, the horn has one fewer charges. Dat significant enough? IMC we would move heaven and earth to destroy that item, even if we had to die to accomplish it. |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Sept 14, 2017 1:11:23 GMT -5
Well, there's one way of destroying it that I know of. Maybe three, depending on how you look at it.
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Post by The Editor on Mar 3, 2021 2:50:13 GMT -5
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Post by Admin Pete on Mar 3, 2021 10:11:24 GMT -5
Gee whiz, call me Monty Haul I guess. Everyone gets consumables fairly regularly, everyone gets a cool signature item pretty early, and armor and weapons with plusses are fairly common. Even if the WORLD is low-magic, it's fun to play with the cool toys. Magic items keep players coming back for more! That's much how I feel. Magic items are the "crack" of D&D. Gotta keep 'em comin' back for more of that sweet, sweet loot!! Monsters, magic items, and buckets of gold are what separates D&D from a more mundane wargame. Couple those things with some delicious XP for improving in combat which will lead to encounters with more and better fantasy elements and before you know it, you have a full blown addiction! I know that's how 10-year-old me got hooked. The operative word here being "10-year-old." It is expected that a bunch of 10 year olds are going to game differently from adults. I am sure that most of us (as adults) are going to run the game differently for 10 year olds (which I have done) that for adults. Many of us feel that magic should be special and that the game focus is on a lot more than just accumulating magic items. |
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