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Post by Mighty Darci on Jul 11, 2017 22:12:55 GMT -5
Thanks. I judged the story that was developing to be more powerful as it was revealed to be rather than what I thought it was, or might be, at the beginning. Hope that makes sense. Agree on King; I am not a fan and for several basic reasons.  Is that story available somewhere? I won't press you for those reasons. What is your reaction to this quote as it relates to all the different things that you do as a designer and writer and as a man? |
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Post by robkuntz on Jul 12, 2017 13:24:07 GMT -5
Thanks. I judged the story that was developing to be more powerful as it was revealed to be rather than what I thought it was, or might be, at the beginning. Hope that makes sense. Agree on King; I am not a fan and for several basic reasons. Is that story available somewhere? I won't press you for those reasons. What is your reaction to this quote as it relates to all the different things that you do as a designer and writer and as a man? Mighty Darci always asks pointed questions; a most unusual and persistent 20-year old indeed! The story is unpublished though gathered together with my other shorts for future publication, which may be in pdf if I cannot rouse enough interest for my fiction otherwise. Well, concerning LL note books, this is rather a fictional portrayal, yes? I mean. I too could take qualities such as these and have them spurt forth from a fictional character's mind and not really believe that that is so, just maybe an ideal or some other utopian want. That is not to say that these could actually be manifest in some humans, but that as a barometer through which to measure myself as a writer, designer and human I would instead use what I specifically know of myself and not some "maybe" list which descends to naked generalization. Further how can one speak of oneself without referencing others by which to draw a comparison for determining the self? That list is more a reflection of the author's ideal as garnered from his surround, his experiences; and they are perforce his ideals alone. Are there such renaissance-humans in this life? Well yes, I've met them (both men and women) I strive to know and to do as much as I can. They were more prevalent, maybe even considered "common," in times past where thought, action and growth in life were normal/subsumed occurrences fed by mental, physical and spiritual industriousness. That gave way to the mass consumption model and the comfort of modern society and with it the fall of the "common" man's past perception of self. A thought provoking Q as always, Darci. I might have more to add later. |
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Jul 12, 2017 15:08:41 GMT -5
]Mighty Darci always asks pointed questions; a most unusual and persistent 20-year old indeed! The story is unpublished though gathered together with my other shorts for future publication, which may be in pdf if I cannot rouse enough interest for my fiction otherwise. Well, concerning LL note books, this is rather a fictional portrayal, yes? I mean. I too could take qualities such as these and have them spurt forth from a fictional character's mind and not really believe that that is so, just maybe an ideal or some other utopian want. That is not to say that these could actually be manifest in some humans, but that as a barometer through which to measure myself as a writer, designer and human I would instead use what I specifically know of myself and not some "maybe" list which descends to naked generalization. Further how can one speak of oneself without referencing others by which to draw a comparison for determining the self? That list is more a reflection of the author's ideal as garnered from his surround, his experiences; and they are perforce his ideals alone. Are there such renaissance-humans in this life? Well yes, I've met them (both men and women) I strive to know and to do as much as I can. They were more prevalent, maybe even considered "common," in times past where thought, action and growth in life were normal/subsumed occurrences fed by mental, physical and spiritual industriousness. That gave way to the mass consumption model and the comfort of modern society and with it the fall of the "common" man's past perception of self. A thought provoking Q as always, Darci. I might have more to add later. I figure I could do all the ones in bold, I know two different ways to butcher a hog and if you can run an OD&D campaign, you could probably plan an invasion. Conn a ship or design a building I could learn or maybe should say could have learned when I was much younger. Write a sonnet - not in this lifetime. Set a bone, I would like to see it done at least once before trying it. Solve equations at one time yes, haven't used that skill in about 65 years. Program a computer, if I were a young man now I could learn, but would rather not. Cook a tasty meal, everyone IMO should be able to feed themselves and enjoy it. This is perhaps not an "ideal" list, but I don't think that was the point anyway, neither for the author or for Darci. IMO the world would be a much better place if most people were truly well-rounded and able to function and contribute in a range of environments and cultures and in a broad range of tasks. I could think of many other things you could add to such a list, but I think it boils down to this, if you cannot change a diaper, comfort the dying or pitch manure, what good are you! |
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Post by robkuntz on Jul 12, 2017 15:38:36 GMT -5
]Mighty Darci always asks pointed questions; a most unusual and persistent 20-year old indeed! The story is unpublished though gathered together with my other shorts for future publication, which may be in pdf if I cannot rouse enough interest for my fiction otherwise. Well, concerning LL note books, this is rather a fictional portrayal, yes? I mean. I too could take qualities such as these and have them spurt forth from a fictional character's mind and not really believe that that is so, just maybe an ideal or some other utopian want. That is not to say that these could actually be manifest in some humans, but that as a barometer through which to measure myself as a writer, designer and human I would instead use what I specifically know of myself and not some "maybe" list which descends to naked generalization. Further how can one speak of oneself without referencing others by which to draw a comparison for determining the self? That list is more a reflection of the author's ideal as garnered from his surround, his experiences; and they are perforce his ideals alone. Are there such renaissance-humans in this life? Well yes, I've met them (both men and women) I strive to know and to do as much as I can. They were more prevalent, maybe even considered "common," in times past where thought, action and growth in life were normal/subsumed occurrences fed by mental, physical and spiritual industriousness. That gave way to the mass consumption model and the comfort of modern society and with it the fall of the "common" man's past perception of self. A thought provoking Q as always, Darci. I might have more to add later. I figure I could do all the ones in bold, I know two different ways to butcher a hog and if you can run an OD&D campaign, you could probably plan an invasion. Conn a ship or design a building I could learn or maybe should say could have learned when I was much younger. Write a sonnet - not in this lifetime. Set a bone, I would like to see it done at least once before trying it. Solve equations at one time yes, haven't used that skill in about 65 years. Program a computer, if I were a young man now I could learn, but would rather not. Cook a tasty meal, everyone IMO should be able to feed themselves and enjoy it. This is perhaps not an "ideal" list, but I don't think that was the point anyway, neither for the author or for Darci. IMO the world would be a much better place if most people were truly well-rounded and able to function and contribute in a range of environments and cultures and in a broad range of tasks. I could think of many other things you could add to such a list, but I think it boils down to this, if you cannot change a diaper, comfort the dying or pitch manure, what good are you! True, but it is a very limited idea list, and rather idealized as I pointed out. How does one know to die gallantly? We can all idealize such a situation but death more often comes under unsuspecting circumstances and in many cases we do not have the thought of gallantry on our minds at those times and it is only those who review such a situation afterwards who place that moniker if so deserved. BTW: If it wasn't a list you couldn't be choosing from it for yourself...  |
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Post by Admin Pete on Jul 12, 2017 16:02:48 GMT -5
I figure I could do all the ones in bold, I know two different ways to butcher a hog and if you can run an OD&D campaign, you could probably plan an invasion. Conn a ship or design a building I could learn or maybe should say could have learned when I was much younger. Write a sonnet - not in this lifetime. Set a bone, I would like to see it done at least once before trying it. Solve equations at one time yes, haven't used that skill in about 65 years. Program a computer, if I were a young man now I could learn, but would rather not. Cook a tasty meal, everyone IMO should be able to feed themselves and enjoy it. This is perhaps not an "ideal" list, but I don't think that was the point anyway, neither for the author or for Darci. IMO the world would be a much better place if most people were truly well-rounded and able to function and contribute in a range of environments and cultures and in a broad range of tasks. I could think of many other things you could add to such a list, but I think it boils down to this, if you cannot change a diaper, comfort the dying or pitch manure, what good are you! True, but it is a very limited idea list, and rather idealized as I pointed out. How does one know to die gallantly? We can all idealize such a situation but death more often comes under unsuspecting circumstances and in many cases we do not have the thought of gallantry on our minds at those times and it is only those who review such a situation afterwards who place that moniker if so deserved. BTW: If it wasn't a list you couldn't be choosing from it for yourself... Much also depends on how those things are defined for each of us. To me dying gallantly would mean dying in the defense of family or of someone who is helpless in the face of the threat. Others would likely define it differently. I see agreement with your "very limited idea list, and rather idealized" but as was stated, if you focus on the list you are missing the point. Which is, I believe, that specialization tends to make a person useless in all but a limited set of circumstances. We need (YMMV) some "specialists" but having few, if any, "generalists" could be a disaster. |
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Post by robkuntz on Jul 12, 2017 16:47:55 GMT -5
True, but it is a very limited idea list, and rather idealized as I pointed out. How does one know to die gallantly? We can all idealize such a situation but death more often comes under unsuspecting circumstances and in many cases we do not have the thought of gallantry on our minds at those times and it is only those who review such a situation afterwards who place that moniker if so deserved. BTW: If it wasn't a list you couldn't be choosing from it for yourself... Much also depends on how those things are defined for each of us. To me dying gallantly would mean dying in the defense of family or of someone who is helpless in the face of the threat. Others would likely define it differently. I see agreement with your "very limited idea list, and rather idealized" but as was stated, if you focus on the list you are missing the point. Which is, I believe, that specialization tends to make a person useless in all but a limited set of circumstances. We need (YMMV) some "specialists" but having few, if any, "generalists" could be a disaster. Yes, but I covered that in my response to Darci and thus all of this is being taken out of context. No matter how one thinks, one does not know HOW to die gallantly, they can imagine dying in a situation where they could interject gallantry but that's just idealistic posturing with the what if? That's not how life works in reality. We don't really get to know how we will die or the prevailing circumstances surrounding such a moment, there's just too many instances that would vary that determination. Thus the "list" really has nothing to do with comparisons but with a generalized idea of what one perceives as the author's "well-rounded" individual, all of which I addressed in my response to Darci. The list to me is rather a wide range of examples that form a whole understanding of that generalized view, and that is how I took it and not as a list to be responded to for its singular examples. |
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Post by sixdemonbag on Jul 12, 2017 17:04:10 GMT -5
I'm dubious of anyone who would put their own personal values onto someone else. Values change across time and place. A discussion of universally beneficial values (out of time) would be an entirely separate conversation. That's why philosophy degrees still exist.
That discussion would of course first have to define: universal, beneficial, value, time, place, individual, collective, morality, and utilitarianism. Not an easy topic.
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Post by robkuntz on Jul 12, 2017 17:16:35 GMT -5
I'm dubious of anyone who would put their own personal values onto someone else. Values change across time and place. A discussion of universally beneficial values (out of time) would be an entirely separate conversation. That's why philosophy degrees still exist. That discussion would of course first have to define: universal, beneficial, value, time, place, individual, collective, morality, and utilitarianism. Not an easy topic. Yes. That is why I ascribed to no comparison of the list's examples in other than general terms. They are the author's evaluations only. When one views the list as a general idea the values recede and an attitude springs forth: the theme of the well-rounded human, which then remains purely subjective. |
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Post by sixdemonbag on Jul 12, 2017 17:29:04 GMT -5
Very well said robkuntz . There are, of course, benefits to being exposed to a variety of values across time and places. Historical values can provide some useful education to the modern era. But, we should always be careful judging them. Fantasy/Sci-Fi/Horror/Mystery are good ways to explore these "base" values in a modern context with some key historical data points as an anchor. Fiction, in general, is better than nonfiction is this regard. Nonfiction excels in gathering and analyzing the data for trends that can be levied in various ways by the arts (inspiration) and sciences (data). EDIT: Speaking more of cultural values, but individual values like those expressed above would apply as well, but with much more scrutiny of personal bias. |
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Post by robkuntz on Jul 12, 2017 17:36:32 GMT -5
Very well said robkuntz . There is, of course, benefits to being exposed to a variety of values across time and places. Historical values can provide some useful education to the modern era. But, we should always be careful judging them. Fantasy/Sci-Fi/Horror/Mystery are good ways to explore these "base" values in a modern context with some key historical data points as an anchor. Fiction, in general, is better than nonfiction is this regard. Nonfiction excels in gathering and analyzing the data for trends that can be levied in various ways by the arts and sciences. Very true. Though, again, keeping it within the contextual boundaries of personal comparison as initially forwarded by Darci I am not arguing for or against the above-listed values themselves but determined that these formed an idea set as posed by the original author, and for the purpose of elucidating upon the theme as I have noted. |
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Post by sixdemonbag on Jul 12, 2017 17:43:31 GMT -5
No disagreement here. Just bantering about.  |
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Post by robkuntz on Jul 12, 2017 17:45:16 GMT -5
No disagreement here. Just bantering about. Yes. Me too... |
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Post by Admin Pete on Jul 12, 2017 18:49:02 GMT -5
I'll bow out, since we are having two different conversations with no common point of reference.
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Post by Mighty Darci on Jul 12, 2017 20:29:06 GMT -5
Is that story available somewhere? I won't press you for those reasons. What is your reaction to this quote as it relates to all the different things that you do as a designer and writer and as a man? Mighty Darci always asks pointed questions; a most unusual and persistent 20-year old indeed! The story is unpublished though gathered together with my other shorts for future publication, which may be in pdf if I cannot rouse enough interest for my fiction otherwise. Well, concerning LL note books, this is rather a fictional portrayal, yes? I mean. I too could take qualities such as these and have them spurt forth from a fictional character's mind and not really believe that that is so, just maybe an ideal or some other utopian want. That is not to say that these could actually be manifest in some humans, but that as a barometer through which to measure myself as a writer, designer and human I would instead use what I specifically know of myself and not some "maybe" list which descends to naked generalization. Further how can one speak of oneself without referencing others by which to draw a comparison for determining the self? That list is more a reflection of the author's ideal as garnered from his surround, his experiences; and they are perforce his ideals alone. Are there such renaissance-humans in this life? Well yes, I've met them (both men and women) I strive to know and to do as much as I can. They were more prevalent, maybe even considered "common," in times past where thought, action and growth in life were normal/subsumed occurrences fed by mental, physical and spiritual industriousness. That gave way to the mass consumption model and the comfort of modern society and with it the fall of the "common" man's past perception of self. A thought provoking Q as always, Darci. I might have more to add later. Thank you Rob! Follow up question, do you think of yourself as or consider yourself to be one of those renaissance-humans? Or who do you think of historically as someone similar to yourself? If you would rather not answer this publicly, and I can think of a number of reasons that might be the case, feel free to pm me and I will keep it to myself. |
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Post by Mighty Darci on Jul 12, 2017 20:33:16 GMT -5
I'm dubious of anyone who would put their own personal values onto someone else. Values change across time and place. A discussion of universally beneficial values (out of time) would be an entirely separate conversation. That's why philosophy degrees still exist. That discussion would of course first have to define: universal, beneficial, value, time, place, individual, collective, morality, and utilitarianism. Not an easy topic. Don't the majority of modern writers, and many others, do this? I agree that it is out of line to try to tell everyone else that their morals and values should match yours. Much different from saying here is what I believe and why, what do you believe and why? |
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Post by Mighty Darci on Jul 12, 2017 20:35:26 GMT -5
I'm dubious of anyone who would put their own personal values onto someone else. Values change across time and place. A discussion of universally beneficial values (out of time) would be an entirely separate conversation. That's why philosophy degrees still exist. That discussion would of course first have to define: universal, beneficial, value, time, place, individual, collective, morality, and utilitarianism. Not an easy topic. Yes. That is why I ascribed to no comparison of the list's examples in other than general terms. They are the author's evaluations only. When one views the list as a general idea the values recede and an attitude springs forth: the theme of the well-rounded human, which then remains purely subjective. As a rhetorical question, who gets to decide what a well-rounded human is and why do they get to decide? |
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Post by Mighty Darci on Jul 12, 2017 20:40:35 GMT -5
Very well said robkuntz . There are, of course, benefits to being exposed to a variety of values across time and places. Historical values can provide some useful education to the modern era. But, we should always be careful judging them. I would have a problem with an "Historian" who tried to judge and compare Genghis Khan and Pol Pot as equals. Context is crucial to understanding history. Fantasy/Sci-Fi/Horror/Mystery are good ways to explore these "base" values in a modern context with some key historical data points as an anchor. Fiction, in general, is better than nonfiction is this regard. Indubitably! |
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Post by sixdemonbag on Jul 12, 2017 20:47:10 GMT -5
I'll bow out, since we are having two different conversations with no common point of reference. I think debating the merits of being a generalist versus a specialist is worthwhile. Defining those qualities would be really hard though. I'm not even sure where I would begin. The above quote wouldn't be my starting point, but I haven't put much thought in it either. I certainly wouldn't mind hearing any of your opinions on the subject. I think the main problem would be recognizing that everyone is a generalist to some degree, and that everyone specializes in certain things as well. If we are talking just occupations, I can't even really think of any general ones. I also don't know anyone who only ever does a single thing. So finding the line would be super tricky. The author's character calling specialists insects is not very inspiring. Humans are complex creatures. |
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Post by sixdemonbag on Jul 12, 2017 21:04:57 GMT -5
I'm dubious of anyone who would put their own personal values onto someone else. Values change across time and place. A discussion of universally beneficial values (out of time) would be an entirely separate conversation. That's why philosophy degrees still exist. That discussion would of course first have to define: universal, beneficial, value, time, place, individual, collective, morality, and utilitarianism. Not an easy topic. Don't the majority of modern writers, and many others, do this? I agree that it is out of line to try to tell everyone else that their morals and values should match yours. Much different from saying here is what I believe and why, what do you believe and why? You are totally correct. They absolutely do this. They do it through essay, fiction, and nonfiction. In fiction, this can be expressed through character, plot, and theme. Sometimes consciously and sometimes not. That's why critical reading is so crucial. Take in the artists viewpoints, and evaluate them against your own values to see if they are worthy of discussion You are describing a difference in tone. Regardless, you should always be dubious of any proclamations when it comes to subjective values. By their very nature of being subjective, they should be scrutinized. Otherwise, it's called "preaching to the choir." In fact, that's what we are doing this very moment, scrutinizing the text. |
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Post by sixdemonbag on Jul 12, 2017 21:07:23 GMT -5
Yes. That is why I ascribed to no comparison of the list's examples in other than general terms. They are the author's evaluations only. When one views the list as a general idea the values recede and an attitude springs forth: the theme of the well-rounded human, which then remains purely subjective. As a rhetorical question, who gets to decide what a well-rounded human is and why do they get to decide? Excellent point! EDIT: I nominate you MD!! |
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Post by sixdemonbag on Jul 12, 2017 21:13:51 GMT -5
Very well said robkuntz . There are, of course, benefits to being exposed to a variety of values across time and places. Historical values can provide some useful education to the modern era. But, we should always be careful judging them. I would have a problem with an "Historian" who tried to judge and compare Genghis Khan and Pol Pot as equals. Context is crucial to understanding history. Context is sadly lost far too often. Discussions like these can be very rare indeed. I like your priorities a great deal, MD. In reference to the above, I would even hear out the "historian" if the case put forth is solid and well-thought out. I'd hear almost anyone out who put honest time and energy into creating something new. Even if it's just a simple idea or thesis. |
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Post by Mighty Darci on Jul 12, 2017 21:24:27 GMT -5
Don't the majority of modern writers, and many others, do this? I agree that it is out of line to try to tell everyone else that their morals and values should match yours. Much different from saying here is what I believe and why, what do you believe and why? You are totally correct. They absolutely do this. They do it through essay, fiction, and nonfiction. In fiction, this can be expressed through character, plot, and theme. Sometimes consciously and sometimes not. That's why critical reading is so crucial. Take in the artists viewpoints, and evaluate them against your own values to see if they are worthy of discussion You are describing a difference in tone. Regardless, you should always be dubious of any proclamations when it comes to subjective values. By their very nature of being subjective, they should be scrutinized. Otherwise, it's called "preaching to the choir." In fact, that's what we are doing this very moment, scrutinizing the text. A related question might be, "Are there any objective truth's that are absolute? Or perchance, " Are there absolutes? If so, are they many or few? To put it another way, "If there were an outside observer looking at our universe what would they say are the intrinsic qualities of our universe and what are the extrinsic qualities? What about our universe is constant and does not or rarely varies? What are the inconstant things that always or usually varies? |
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Post by Mighty Darci on Jul 12, 2017 21:26:06 GMT -5
EDIT: I nominate you MD!! Be careful what you wish for! |
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Post by sixdemonbag on Jul 12, 2017 21:40:53 GMT -5
EDIT: I nominate you MD!! Be careful what you wish for! (Slinks away scared while gathering gifts...) (Hoping to avoid the future wrath of The Mighty Darci through bribes and obedience when she rules all...) |
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Post by sixdemonbag on Jul 12, 2017 21:45:40 GMT -5
You are totally correct. They absolutely do this. They do it through essay, fiction, and nonfiction. In fiction, this can be expressed through character, plot, and theme. Sometimes consciously and sometimes not. That's why critical reading is so crucial. Take in the artists viewpoints, and evaluate them against your own values to see if they are worthy of discussion You are describing a difference in tone. Regardless, you should always be dubious of any proclamations when it comes to subjective values. By their very nature of being subjective, they should be scrutinized. Otherwise, it's called "preaching to the choir." In fact, that's what we are doing this very moment, scrutinizing the text. A related question might be, "Are there any objective truth's that are absolute? Or perchance, " Are there absolutes? If so, are they many or few? To put it another way, "If there were an outside observer looking at our universe what would they say are the intrinsic qualities of our universe and what are the extrinsic qualities? What about our universe is constant and does not or rarely varies? What are the inconstant things that always or usually varies? You basically just asked for the meaning of life!!! (BRB looking for the answer...) |
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Post by sixdemonbag on Jul 12, 2017 21:46:32 GMT -5
Found it!! It's 42!!! EDIT: Hopefully you get the reference. If not, nerd cred revoked. |
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Post by Mighty Darci on Jul 12, 2017 22:57:58 GMT -5
Be careful what you wish for! (Slinks away scared while gathering gifts...) (Hoping to avoid the future wrath of The Mighty Darci through bribes and obedience when she rules all...) Relax, I'm not cruel, I won't pull your wings off or anything like that. No torture, if it has to be done, a good quick clean death is always best. |
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Post by Mighty Darci on Jul 12, 2017 22:58:32 GMT -5
Found it!! It's 42!!! EDIT: Hopefully you get the reference. If not, nerd cred revoked. It really is the answer, I hope you know that! |
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Post by sixdemonbag on Jul 12, 2017 23:10:52 GMT -5
(Slinks away scared while gathering gifts...) (Hoping to avoid the future wrath of The Mighty Darci through bribes and obedience when she rules all...) Relax, I'm not cruel, I won't pull your wings off or anything like that. No torture, if it has to be done, a good quick clean death is always best. 😳 🦋 🗡 |
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Post by robkuntz on Jul 13, 2017 1:04:25 GMT -5
Yes. That is why I ascribed to no comparison of the list's examples in other than general terms. They are the author's evaluations only. When one views the list as a general idea the values recede and an attitude springs forth: the theme of the well-rounded human, which then remains purely subjective. As a rhetorical question, who gets to decide what a well-rounded human is and why do they get to decide? Anyone does. Because they feel they have the knowledge to do so. Thus it becomes all subjective, really, as I've pointed out. |
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