What's Rob Writing and Designing?? AMA

[robkuntz]

This is where anyone can ask me anything about what I am designing/writing and why.  That's if you don't have something else better to be doing...

[Admin Pete]

Jun 28, 2017 10:38:31 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

The two books I am doing are in cooperation with another outfit and the first should be announced in a few months as I am 1/3 finished with it. The board game is being done for LUCCA Comics and Games and is almost completed, so none of these three are TLS projects; New Ethos is, in my estimation, 60-70% complete, but due to its different topical sections (3) and the diagrams, and its sheer size, it has to be printed out at this point and the chapters hand-edited/organized, something I cannot do with a 21" computer screen, and then the whole corrected for content and ordering of the chapters and then re-inputted. It's a massively complex project which I sourced a bit with DATG. DATG has been an underseller in our view, so we are in no rush with New Ethos and are considering different approaches to getting it published and recognized in the future.

I would be willing to answer any questions in my forum on any of my past or future works, and I believe I have a sub-forum for that. Thanks for the interest!

I'll start, so is the board game going to be for the European market to begin with or will it also be published here in the USA?

You note that the other two books you are working on are with another outfit and that the New Ethos has a lot of work yet due to the sheer size of the project. Are there any other projects that are TLS projects that are in the works?

Do you have a project board that lists what you would like to do over the next 3-5 years? And if so, what are some of the things on that list?

[robkuntz]

Jun 28, 2017 15:01:09 GMT -5 Admin Pete said:

Jun 28, 2017 10:38:31 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

The two books I am doing are in cooperation with another outfit and the first should be announced in a few months as I am 1/3 finished with it. The board game is being done for LUCCA Comics and Games and is almost completed, so none of these three are TLS projects; New Ethos is, in my estimation, 60-70% complete, but due to its different topical sections (3) and the diagrams, and its sheer size, it has to be printed out at this point and the chapters hand-edited/organized, something I cannot do with a 21" computer screen, and then the whole corrected for content and ordering of the chapters and then re-inputted. It's a massively complex project which I sourced a bit with DATG. DATG has been an underseller in our view, so we are in no rush with New Ethos and are considering different approaches to getting it published and recognized in the future.

I would be willing to answer any questions in my forum on any of my past or future works, and I believe I have a sub-forum for that. Thanks for the interest!

1) I'll start, so is the board game going to be for the European market to begin with or will it also be published here in the USA?

2) You note that the other two books you are working on are with another outfit and that the New Ethos has a lot of work yet due to the sheer size of the project. Are there any other projects that are TLS projects that are in the works?

3) Do you have a project board that lists what you would like to do over the next 3-5 years? And if so, what are some of the things on that list?

1) Yes and Yes.  Can't really talk about it in detail yet.

2)  Not as yet, pretty busy with these, in fact.

3)  Upward of 1.5 years have been set aside for these projects.  About 2/3 through the time cycle I will have better idea on what's next.  There will some translations of my works in between and a few PDFs here or there, maybe.  

TLS is seeing a growing saturation and winding down of this niche RPG market so we have been down-scaling RPG materials as we can no longer gauge returns on investments in that area excepting, MAYBE, with large, iconic projects, which is a very shaky type of route these days in the currently depressed market environment.  If I could be guaranteed 400-500 sales as I did 2006-2009, which we cannot now do, we could put out more RPG material. That is not the case nor do we feel that will change in the immediate future.

[Admin Pete]

Jun 28, 2017 15:32:51 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

TLS is seeing a growing saturation and winding down of this niche RPG market so we have been down-scaling RPG materials as we can no longer gauge returns on investments in that area excepting, MAYBE, with large, iconic projects, which is a very shaky type of route these days in the currently depressed market environment.  If I could be guaranteed 400-500 sales as I did 2006-2009, which we cannot now do, we could put out more RPG material. That is not the case nor do we feel that will change in the immediate future.

I am surprised, I would think that you should very steadily sell 1000-1500 units on almost anything you put out. The Kalibruhn Supplement we have talked about, I always assumed that would run 4000-5000 units for the first printing. I guess I am not very representative of the market. I know a lot of people seem to want pdfs and maybe that is the sign of the times with the younger people are the less interested they are in hard copy.

[Mighty Darci]

The real problem comes down to getting your writing in front of the eyes of millions of people who do not do forums or blogs, how do you reach them? I don't have that answer, but there must be some cost effective way to put you books and other items out to a much wider audience in a cost effective manner.

You may have already answered this elsewhere, but what are you thoughts on distribution of things you have previously published or essentially complete unpublished things that could be easily published in the form of pdf or even kindle? My parents taught me the value of being able to hold a book in your hands, but most of my friends aren't interested in anything that is not in an electronic format.

[robkuntz]

Jun 29, 2017 10:08:10 GMT -5 Mighty Darci said:

The real problem comes down to getting your writing in front of the eyes of millions of people who do not do forums or blogs, how do you reach them? I don't have that answer, but there must be some cost effective way to put you books and other items out to a much wider audience in a cost effective manner.

You may have already answered this elsewhere, but what are you thoughts on distribution of things you have previously published or essentially complete unpublished things that could be easily published in the form of pdf or even kindle? My parents taught me the value of being able to hold a book in your hands, but most of my friends aren't interested in anything that is not in an electronic format.

The problem is in my experience many fold:

1)  This is a niche industry
2)  There is an ever-growing amount of small publishers and who are using POD.
2)  There are no major publishers in this niche industry, we are divided into hundreds of small islands
4)  The hobby has produced more material than consumers can consume over several if not many years (i.e., it is GLUTTED into the future)
5)  This part of the niche hobby is notoriously cheap (FACT); they rely on mostly free information
6)  Electronic information has more or less replaced print, but the same requirement (very low cost to buy) has been maintained by a depressed and saturated market (it is a buyer's market and not a designers or a publisher's market) 
7) Many top flight designers cannot get their really good projects off the ground and thus find themselves writing down to their capability levels, and this has been going on for years now.
8) Crowd funding and Kickstarters have seemingly become the norm, a platform we will probably never use and for many reasons.

I could probably list more but these are the main ones.  In total it is a very insurmountable obstacle probably only overcome, in part, by PDFs as print is now too expensive for us at the qualiity and investment levels that we maintain for RPG products.

[Mighty Darci]

That sounds pretty grim, I am sad to say. Let me encourage you to put as much stuff that you already have existing out in pdf and where available a POD option. It is, or course much to soon to put DATG out in pdf IMO, but down the road ... So do  you have other board games in mind, besides the one you are working on now?


Of your previous board games:

Magus board game, designer

King of the Tabletop board game, co-designer

Lankhmar board game, co-design/development

Kings & Things board game (won 1986 Charles Roberts award), co-designer

Do you have the rights to any of them and will any of them be republished at some point?



Edit typo!

[robkuntz]

Jun 29, 2017 11:36:24 GMT -5 Mighty Darci said:

That sounds pretty grim, I am sad to say. Let me encourage you to put as much stuff that you already have existing out in pdf and where available a POD option. It is, or course much to soon to put DATG out in pdf IMO, but down the road ... So do  you have other board games in mind, besides the one you are working on now?


Of your previous board games:

Magus board game, designer

King of the Tabletop board game, co-designer

Lankhmar board game, co-design/development

Kings & Things board game (won 1986 Charles Roberts award), co-designer

Do you have the rights to any of them and will any of them be republished at some point?



Edit typo!

I have rights to all save Lankhmar which is owned by WotC/Hasbro.  I have several other BG ideas, one for the education-games market. Magus could be reworked, but I am not as keen on that route as yet. I will also respond to your message, now...  

[Mighty Darci]

 My best to you both!

[xizallian]

If no one else wants to have a go at asking questions I will.

What would you design if you did not need it to bring in money to live on? What would you design if you were comfortably fixed for life? I cannot imagine you as someone who could kickback and do nothing, at least not for long. So what would you do if you had complete freedom to thumb your nose at expectations and do anything you wanted?

[robkuntz]

Jul 3, 2017 13:38:48 GMT -5 xizallian said:

If no one else wants to have a go at asking questions I will.

What would you design if you did not need it to bring in money to live on? What would you design if you were comfortably fixed for life? I cannot imagine you as someone who could kickback and do nothing, at least not for long. So what would you do if you had complete freedom to thumb your nose at expectations and do anything you wanted?

One of the better questions I have been asked over the years!

First, I'd like to answer it like this:  I am a writer and a designer.  I have written essays, short stories, a screenplay, a fiction novel, game theory, poems (even mastered the Ode for one), ad copy, marketing scripts, business plans (one for a SBA presentation by a company applying for a loan), marketing plans, etc,

In design it's been board games, RPGs, a card game (on file with the Library of Congress), etc. as well as many dozens of scenarios for miniatures battles.

There's a lot of ranges and types there.

If given my choice I would write essays and screenplays and design simple yet fun board games.  RPGs are way too complex resource wise to publish and require way too much time for the minimal return.

Now within those categories there's a lot of choice.

[The Master]

OK, I am up for this.

OK robkuntz, what are the top five questions you've never been asked, but have always hoped they would be? And the answers to them of course. I guess that is, if you were interviewing you what would you ask?


Also this, outside of Arneson and Gygax, who has been the largest influence on you as a writer and a designer? And how has this person influenced you?

[robkuntz]

Jul 4, 2017 13:57:01 GMT -5 The Master said:

OK, I am up for this.

OK robkuntz , what are the top five questions you've never been asked, but have always hoped they would be? And the answers to them of course. I guess that is, if you were interviewing you what would you ask?


Also this, outside of Arneson and Gygax, who has been the largest influence on you as a writer and a designer? And how has this person influenced you?

Well.  Five asked and answered within my own insular mind?  LOL!  I sure would win the self-centered award now wouldn't I?

I was on DF for many years and most of the questions were anecdotal, like, 'What did Robilar do?"  Stuff like that.  I started noticing that the vast majority had nothing to do with my profession, like, the profession had stopped at some point and now it was gramps telling a story for amusement purposes.  And that was ongoing over 12 years...  So as much as I've noted that doesn't mean that I have the question or questions that I would ask myself, it's just that no questions about design or writing or like, "What made you come up with that line of thinking to forward that idea," etc. have RARELY been asked, like being a designer is only good for the secreted away designer, or something.  It's kinda strange.  I started to feel like I really existed in a null zone or somewhere removed from sight and that what I did to bring thoughts to print did not matter for understanding purposes as long as they were there in final forms to be used.  Now.  I could say the same of myself when and if I had been tasked with asking Tolkien a question or two if I had been so positioned to do so, but I guarantee that it wouldn't have been like, "So what do you feel Bilbo would have done in X situation?"  Something more profound I'd think considering the many dimensions of the man.

Much of this is brought about by thinking of a person as a slotted object, kinda like a job profession, let's say, a miner.  Many people react rather strangely when I tell that I am a writer.  They have no clue.  The same way I am sure I would react, in part, if some one told me that they did nuclear physics.   So, I don't know what I'd ask me, I only know what I've been asked time and again that has now become a broken record.  I now warn interviewers about this as they tend to recycle the same questions over the years if I don't; and again like my history ended somewhere in the past.

Lots of writers and film makers to choose from for influence.  John Huston and Robert Louis Stevenson come to mind immediately as well as Poe and Hitchcock (note that all of them were masters of mood and suspense). Design is more or less my own style.  Gary taught me diligence but not style.  Arneson I appreciated for his willingness to forever experiment, making it a "game of design" so to speak.  In the end there are lots of influences that come and go that develop your voice and style past the imitative variety that you can then mark as your own.  

[sixdemonbag]

robkuntz :

Could you talk about setting, tone, emergence, and how it relates to mechanical game design? I'll expand:

As an example, how important was the fantasy setting when playtesting D&D and designing GH? Did the rules emerge from the campaign, or was the campaign shaped by the rules? I've long been curious about the concept of emergence in game design and what you feel has the higher priority.

If Blackmoor had been more about space exploration (Star Trek, say), for example, would the general mechanics have been similar? I ask because no mechanics seem to have eclipsed the core D&D resolutions that you helped birth all those years ago. Games and genres come and go, but the roll to hit, roll damage, saves, etc. all seem here to stay. I can't believe it's just because of nostalgia/momentum. Something about the system you codified and made popular is still the default today. Further attempts to improve seem to needlessly complicate and slow gameplay. Or, they reduce to the point of severe abstraction.

You were able to find a sweet spot and I'm curious how you came about it. Whether it was contemplated in private, or emerged at the table, is a curiosity to me and I'd love to hear your thoughts about it.

An analogy for clarification: Many stand-up comedians take one of two approaches to writing: 1.) They will sit and write out stories with bits and such and then "playtest" them in front of a live audience. 2.) The other method is get in front of an audience and begin telling a story while letting the jokes emerge naturally. Both approaches work well for comedy. Is there a game design analog to this?

So back to your current and past game designs: For a new game, do you start with a concept first, then formulate mechanics, then test them at the table? Or, do you begin at the table, receive input from your players, and derive mechanics from those things that come about during play? Is it a combination?

For bonus XP, how much, as mentioned earlier, does tone and setting impact these decisions? Is there anything about a setting or theme that necessitates certain design goals?

Thanks in advance and there may be more than one general question in there, sorry!

[robkuntz]

Jul 4, 2017 19:51:06 GMT -5 sixdemonbag said:

robkuntz :

Could you talk about setting, tone, emergence, and how it relates to mechanical game design? I'll expand:

As an example, how important was the fantasy setting when playtesting D&D and designing GH? Did the rules emerge from the campaign, or was the campaign shaped by the rules? I've long been curious about the concept of emergence in game design and what you feel has the higher priority.

If Blackmoor had been more about space exploration (Star Trek, say), for example, would the general mechanics have been similar? I ask because no mechanics seem to have eclipsed the core D&D resolutions that you helped birth all those years ago. Games and genres come and go, but the roll to hit, roll damage, saves, etc. all seem here to stay. I can't believe it's just because of nostalgia/momentum. Something about the system you codified and made popular is still the default today. Further attempts to improve seem to either needlessly complicate and slow gameplay. Or, they reduce to the point of severe abstraction.

You were able to find a sweet spot and I'm curious how you came about it. Whether it was contemplated in private, or emerged at the table, is a curiosity to me and I'd love to hear your thoughts about it.

An analogy for clarification: Many stand-up comedians take one of two approaches to writing: 1.) They will sit and write out stories with bits and such and then "playtest" them in front of a live audience. 2.) The other method is get in front of an audience and begin telling a story while letting the jokes emerge naturally. Both approaches work well for comedy. Is there a game design analog to this?

So back to your current and past game designs: For a new game, do you start with a concept first, then formulate mechanics, then test them at the table? Or, do you begin at the table, receive input from your players, and derive mechanics from those things that come about during play? Is it a combination?

For bonus XP, how much, as mentioned earlier, does tone and setting impact these decisions? Is there anything about a setting or theme that necessitates certain design goals?

Thanks in advance and there may be more than one general question in there, sorry!

It's 3.30 am here in France so I will answer this in due course over the next few days.  Some of this is covered in DATG book I recently released and in an essay on how Gary and I DMed/designed (as yet unpublished but on the near horizon, very soon).  Bonne nuit!

[sixdemonbag]

Jul 4, 2017 20:32:21 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

It's 3.30 am here in France so I will answer this in due course over the next few days.  Some of this is covered in DATG book I recently released and in an essay on how Gary and I DMed/designed (as yet unpublished but on the near horizon, very soon).  Bonne nuit!

Thanks, Rob! I'm extremely jealous of your (to this American's) exotic locale!! New Orleans and Montreal is as close as I've been to French culture. I know some Francophiles that would kill to be in your situation. I did not know that you touched on these subjects in DATG, so thanks for the head's up. Also, your new piece sounds amazing! I'll be more than glad to help put the word out on the piece when the time comes. I might be a little late to the DATG promotion party, but I've already put it on my shortlist of recommendations for anyone interested in system analysis and game design.

[The Master]

The African Queen is one of my favorite movies, Treasure Island and the Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde are two of my favorite books, The Raven and The Bells are favorite poems, The Cask of Amontillado, The Pit and the Pendulum and The Tell-Tale Heart are three of my favorite short stories,  Vertigo, The Birds and Psycho are favorite movies. Those four men are great to have as influences and the run the whole gamut between them.

robkuntz, I do have a somewhat Robilar related question. Why did you decide to adventure solo, was it just that you were there and others weren't or is solo adventuring a preference and if so why? Do you chaff under the constraint of working with a team, gaming and otherwise? 

[xizallian]

Jul 3, 2017 14:18:30 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

One of the better questions I have been asked over the years!

Thanks!

Jul 3, 2017 14:18:30 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

First, I'd like to answer it like this:  I am a writer and a designer.  I have written essays, short stories, a screenplay, a fiction novel, game theory, poems (even mastered the Ode for one), ad copy, marketing scripts, business plans (one for a SBA presentation by a company applying for a loan), marketing plans, etc,

In design it's been board games, RPGs, a card game (on file with the Library of Congress), etc. as well as many dozens of scenarios for miniatures battles.

There's a lot of ranges and types there.

If given my choice I would write essays and screenplays and design simple yet fun board games.  RPGs are way too complex resource wise to publish and require way too much time for the minimal return.

Now within those categories there's a lot of choice.

Thank you, Rob! Of all of these, is there a specific topic to write about or a specific type of board game that bring you the most satisfaction both during the "work" and afterwards?

[robkuntz]

Jul 5, 2017 12:22:33 GMT -5 xizallian said:

Jul 3, 2017 14:18:30 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

One of the better questions I have been asked over the years!

Thanks!

Jul 3, 2017 14:18:30 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

First, I'd like to answer it like this:  I am a writer and a designer.  I have written essays, short stories, a screenplay, a fiction novel, game theory, poems (even mastered the Ode for one), ad copy, marketing scripts, business plans (one for a SBA presentation by a company applying for a loan), marketing plans, etc,

In design it's been board games, RPGs, a card game (on file with the Library of Congress), etc. as well as many dozens of scenarios for miniatures battles.

There's a lot of ranges and types there.

If given my choice I would write essays and screenplays and design simple yet fun board games.  RPGs are way too complex resource wise to publish and require way too much time for the minimal return.

Now within those categories there's a lot of choice.

Thank you, Rob! Of all of these, is there a specific topic to write about or a specific type of board game that bring you the most satisfaction both during the "work" and afterwards?

George Orwell said:  "Good prose is like a windowpane. I cannot say with certainty which of my motives are the strongest, but I know which of them deserve to be followed. And looking back through my work, I see that it is invariably where I lacked a political purpose that I wrote lifeless books and was betrayed into purple passages, sentences without meaning, decorative adjectives and humbug generally."

So,  does a writer have something to write about or do they just want to write? I find that I agree with Orwell more and more when one pushes forth a value-oriented stance in writing but without moralizing.  So in screenplays this led me to write (at 26 years of age then) a futuristic-poltical/cultural-satire; another, which I am working on, is SF/Present Day with a slant reminiscent of what the society has come to silently expect from the ruling class/military complex.  Much SF of the past exposed the present not too far off, such as Orwell's 1984.

As far as board games, simple yet complex like Monopoly.  The one I am designing for LUCCA is like that.  There's another for the education market that I want to do, very simple rules, again, yet complex in play.  These are the best.

Essays depend on the time and mood and experience, they come and go.  I do want to write a semi-satirical/parable history about the advent of the idea of value and progress it to the present day.  It's tentatively named, The World According to Joe:  A Tale of Gold, Two Goats and the Fall of Humanity.

PS--To the other posters (TheMaster and demonnsix"guy") I owe responses to--still working on those.  

[sixdemonbag]

Jul 5, 2017 13:50:58 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

PS--To the other posters (TheMaster and demonnsix"guy") I owe responses to--still working on those.  

No rush at all. I just finished reading through your DATG thread, and (besides you having the patience of a saint, my goodness) I see where you mention the concept of Emergence (sic).

I am really only asking about your personal design process, and how you perceive the efficiencies of various methods. In short, how you get in the right mindset to design or playtest a new boardgame/rpg.

I don't know if I'm using it the same way you did in that thread. If there is a better term for what I'm asking, please let me know. I'm always willing to learn new terminology.

Sidenote: That thread was painful to read. I believe you accomplished exactly what you set out to do. I can't believe the amount of criticism you received. And yet, nobody was willing to do the same analysis you did and come up with a different result. That's how science works. Perform the same work, and falsify if possible. Anyway, too much emphasis on chainmail combat mechanics which didn't seem relevant to your thesis. /endrant

[Maximum Forest Ranger]

Jul 5, 2017 13:50:58 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

George Orwell said:  "Good prose is like a windowpane. I cannot say with certainty which of my motives are the strongest, but I know which of them deserve to be followed. And looking back through my work, I see that it is invariably where I lacked a political purpose that I wrote lifeless books and was betrayed into purple passages, sentences without meaning, decorative adjectives and humbug generally."

It's tentatively named, The World According to Joe:  A Tale of Gold, Two Goats and the Fall of Humanity.[/quote]

I love that title, tentative or not. Very evocative.

purple passages, sentences without meaning, decorative adjectives and humbug generally.

I have it on good authority that American schools now consider that to epitomize good writing, while student who possess the skill to write clear, clean and concise are graded lower on state exams everywhere.


Since the title above has yet to be written, what is the boldest thing you have written up to now and why is it bold?

[robkuntz]

Jul 4, 2017 19:51:06 GMT -5 sixdemonbag said:

robkuntz :

Could you talk about setting, tone, emergence, and how it relates to mechanical game design? I'll expand:

As an example, how important was the fantasy setting when playtesting D&D and designing GH? Did the rules emerge from the campaign, or was the campaign shaped by the rules? I've long been curious about the concept of emergence in game design and what you feel has the higher priority.

If Blackmoor had been more about space exploration (Star Trek, say), for example, would the general mechanics have been similar? I ask because no mechanics seem to have eclipsed the core D&D resolutions that you helped birth all those years ago. Games and genres come and go, but the roll to hit, roll damage, saves, etc. all seem here to stay. I can't believe it's just because of nostalgia/momentum. Something about the system you codified and made popular is still the default today. Further attempts to improve seem to needlessly complicate and slow gameplay. Or, they reduce to the point of severe abstraction.

You were able to find a sweet spot and I'm curious how you came about it. Whether it was contemplated in private, or emerged at the table, is a curiosity to me and I'd love to hear your thoughts about it.

An analogy for clarification: Many stand-up comedians take one of two approaches to writing: 1.) They will sit and write out stories with bits and such and then "playtest" them in front of a live audience. 2.) The other method is get in front of an audience and begin telling a story while letting the jokes emerge naturally. Both approaches work well for comedy. Is there a game design analog to this?

So back to your current and past game designs: For a new game, do you start with a concept first, then formulate mechanics, then test them at the table? Or, do you begin at the table, receive input from your players, and derive mechanics from those things that come about during play? Is it a combination?

For bonus XP, how much, as mentioned earlier, does tone and setting impact these decisions? Is there anything about a setting or theme that necessitates certain design goals?

Thanks in advance and there may be more than one general question in there, sorry!

Could you talk about setting, tone, emergence, and how it relates to mechanical game design? I'll expand:

As an example, how important was the fantasy setting when playtesting D&D and designing GH? Did the rules emerge from the campaign, or was the campaign shaped by the rules? I've long been curious about the concept of emergence in game design and what you feel has the higher priority.


The rules emerged from the backwash of the play-tests; we started with 10 pages and by the time we were through Gary had a 100 page ms. But he and I had already conceived of Greyhawk Sup 1 material and we were already using its parts in the extended play-tests around the time the game was released.

There was all forms of emergence going on from that, some of which would not be included in the rules but was generalized in the milestone ‘Forward,’ Introduction and Afterword.

“Many designs proceed from an intent; some, however, proceed from combining elements to achieve a start. Thus we have planned design for a specific purpose and experimentation for assessment.” DATG, Essay 2.

D&D was the latter category and as based upon Arneson;s Blackmoor “prototype”.


If Blackmoor had been more about space exploration (Star Trek, say), for example, would the general mechanics have been similar? I ask because no mechanics seem to have eclipsed the core D&D resolutions that you helped birth all those years ago.

Well this addresses Dave’s ongoing systemization, and games within games (or models within models) and overlapping systems, (DATG, 1st Essay, on Arneson’s system qualities).

The MMSA was already pursuing that in the exploration SF with John Snider’s Star Probe, TSR 1975.  boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/13414/star-probe

It’s only a short step thereafter to get down to what mechanic one would use for combat, as one could easily substitute interchangeable systems at that point for whatever in-game phase one wanted to promote That already takes place in the overlapping mechanical phases in D&D and is backwards traceable to Arneson’s system, such as moving between different mechanical states from outdoor to dungeon while at the same time retaining a stable base state that operates through both.

Gary and I also rigged things such as this in different ways in our campaign, going off of the idea of overlapping states.

Games and genres come and go, but the roll to hit, roll damage, saves, etc. all seem here to stay. I can't believe it's just because of nostalgia/momentum. Something about the system you codified and made popular is still the default today. Further attempts to improve seem to needlessly complicate and slow gameplay. Or, they reduce to the point of severe abstraction.

You were able to find a sweet spot and I'm curious how you came about it. Whether it was contemplated in private, or emerged at the table, is a curiosity to me and I'd love to hear your thoughts about it.

Arneson had already found the sweet spot; Gary rejiggled the mechanic to his liking. It’s really a simple scaling system, an inverted pyramid ascension, or what I call a “corporate ladder” model. There were already gradients such as these in use in wargames and tabletop games (chess promotion, in Shogi different types of promotions), in wargames different scales of troop worthiness (morales) and on a more abstract game level better tanks and airplanes, etc according to engineering, thus in the abstract play level a more concrete need to assess more or better (again scaling) inferior types of resources one would allocate to dealing with the better ones.

I would say that the advent of percentile dice was the breakthrough that allowed for infinite realms to really come to fore. The randomization curve went way up, especially if one added a modifying die roll (6, 8, 12, or higher in the percentile roll as one promoted increasing scaling/difficulty ranges).

An analogy for clarification: Many stand-up comedians take one of two approaches to writing: 1.) They will sit and write out stories with bits and such and then "playtest" them in front of a live audience. 2.) The other method is get in front of an audience and begin telling a story while letting the jokes emerge naturally. Both approaches work well for comedy. Is there a game design analog to this?

Kinda covered above, re: DATG quote. I would like to add that Carlin wrote essay length skits and thus there is more range than just two.

So back to your current and past game designs: For a new game, do you start with a concept first, then formulate mechanics, then test them at the table? Or, do you begin at the table, receive input from your players, and derive mechanics from those things that come about during play? Is it a combination?

Again, it depends. My board game concept for the edu market literally described itself whole-cloth as I was thinking through some parts in New Ethos in Game Design. Designers always consider these as gifts from the gods of creativity. Otherwise it's whatever's working.  Design almost always moves from the general to the specific as it closes down its parts, it's rarely other than that.  How one does that differs due to each twist and turn and discovery or backing-off, etc.  It all depends on the design and the inquiries one is making. The How To would be too general (as it should be, for if you are not a designer or one with a design mind it just does not add to a linearity).

For bonus XP, how much, as mentioned earlier, does tone and setting impact these decisions? Is there anything about a setting or theme that necessitates certain design goals?

Gary and I awarded bonus XP for good play and thinking (which usually meant, in the latter case, that we were impressed because we had not foreseen something being done in the manner that it was).

I hope that answers all; if not follow-up on where I missed (or hit).

[robkuntz]

Jul 4, 2017 20:52:33 GMT -5 The Master said:

The African Queen is one of my favorite movies, Treasure Island and the Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde are two of my favorite books, The Raven and The Bells are favorite poems, The Cask of Amontillado, The Pit and the Pendulum and The Tell-Tale Heart are three of my favorite short stories,  Vertigo, The Birds and Psycho are favorite movies. Those four men are great to have as influences and the run the whole gamut between them.

robkuntz , I do have a somewhat Robilar related question. Why did you decide to adventure solo, was it just that you were there and others weren't or is solo adventuring a preference and if so why? Do you chaff under the constraint of working with a team, gaming and otherwise? 

Great movies, poems and stories, indeed...

As noted in my video interview, I was testing the breadth of the concept with the solo adventures (after all it was new, right?). There was the emphasis on the group play aspect.  Though there were a lot of tactically minded players in our group, some of them were very careless.  Getting a team to work together is quite a chore.  Robilar had also grown in level due to his very good play, so I was a few levels ahead of some of the others. But for the main I wanted to test Gary's tactics in handling an invisible fighter creeping through the crypts.  It really confused him as he had sculpted the encounters for noisy groups who could easily be engaged.  I changed the paradigm and it frustrated him. 

Gary and I, Tom Wham and I, and Jim Ward and I worked really well together as co-designers.  I'm fine with another partner but Gary and I both believed that too many chefs spoil the meal.

[sixdemonbag]

robkuntz Awesome stuff there. Just reading this gets me all jazzed up to brainstorm ideas. The enthusiasm must have been so infectious in those early days. It really comes through in your writing. It also shows how much thought and effort is put into your designs. Even if they aren't "mapped out" beforehand, so-to-speak, they are clearly carefully considered in many not-so-obvious ways.

Thanks for the great reply!

EDIT: I didn't know that about Carlin. Were any of these essay-length skits ever filmed or recorded?

[robkuntz]

Jul 5, 2017 16:30:37 GMT -5 sixdemonbag said:

robkuntz Awesome stuff there. Just reading this gets me all jazzed up to brainstorm ideas. The enthusiasm must have been so infectious in those early days. It really comes through in your writing. It also shows how much thought and effort is put into your designs. Even if they aren't "mapped out" beforehand, so-to-speak, they are clearly carefully considered in many not-so-obvious ways.

Thanks for the great reply!

EDIT: I didn't know that about Carlin. Were any of these essay-length skits ever filmed or recorded?

Thanks.  I love writing and designing.  I would not know what to do if I could not pursue them.

Yes. Most of Carlin's HBO Specials (a dozen??) were based upon his change in direction with the essay style approach.

[sixdemonbag]

Wow, Carlin really was some kind of mad genius. I didn't know that's how he wrote those specials. I've seen a few of them (not all). A troubled guy, but groundbreaking without a doubt.

[robkuntz]

Jul 5, 2017 14:20:35 GMT -5 sixdemonbag said:

Jul 5, 2017 13:50:58 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

PS--To the other posters (TheMaster and demonnsix"guy") I owe responses to--still working on those.  

No rush at all. I just finished reading through your DATG thread, and (besides you having the patience of a saint, my goodness) I see where you mention the concept of Emergence (sic).

I am really only asking about your personal design process, and how you perceive the efficiencies of various methods. In short, how you get in the right mindset to design or playtest a new boardgame/rpg.

I don't know if I'm using it the same way you did in that thread. If there is a better term for what I'm asking, please let me know. I'm always willing to learn new terminology.

Sidenote: That thread was painful to read. I believe you accomplished exactly what you set out to do. I can't believe the amount of criticism you received. And yet, nobody was willing to do the same analysis you did and come up with a different result. That's how science works. Perform the same work, and falsify if possible. Anyway, too much emphasis on chainmail combat mechanics which didn't seem relevant to your thesis. /endrant

Yep.  It's seems that historians forgot a salient point in their assessments:  what design is.  Kinda hard to assess that when one is not a designer.  So, How dare a designer actually speak in systems terms and design philosophy!  I find it disingenuous at best and it is a real testament to what our industry has become.   For if I had done a book similar to this back in the day, or even for the wargamers of today, I would have been greeted with kudos and it would have been given its due circumspection.  That marks a true divide which I have noticed that widened over the years and is now set in place as an established POV. 

[robkuntz]

Max Forest Ranger said: ( It's tentatively named, The World According to Joe: A Tale of Gold, Two Goats and the Fall of Humanity.[/quote])

I love that title, tentative or not. Very evocative.

purple passages, sentences without meaning, decorative adjectives and humbug generally.


I have it on good authority that American schools now consider that to epitomize good writing, while student who possess the skill to write clear, clean and concise are graded lower on state exams everywhere.


Since the title above has yet to be written, what is the boldest thing you have written up to now and why is it bold?

***

Yes, I really want to write that one, it's been on my mind a lot these days.

Quite so, the dumbing down of America continues according to plan. Left is Right, Up is Down. There's an ideology that's set into the fabric of America which is aimed at less than merit and accomplishment and is linked to post-Modern thought of abolishing standards and which weakens society's values.

I would say that my boldest writing came forth in my screenplay, InSumNation, and in a short story, "Everything's Alright." The latter was written (1987) shortly after I heard what sounded like a death screech from a cat on a warm summer's night. It started as a horror story and I changed it in mid-stride to a pure fictional piece about the death of a little boy in a drowning accident and the mother and father's immediate attempts to reconcile and move on. It also involves a cat who becomes an eerie metaphor for the boy. Some intense scenes in it.

[Mighty Darci]

Jul 5, 2017 18:00:33 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

"Everything's Alright." The latter was written (1987) shortly after I heard what sounded like a death screech from a cat on a warm summer's night. It started as a horror story and I changed it in mid-stride to a pure fictional piece about the death of a little boy in a drowning accident and the mother and father's immediate attempts to reconcile and move on. It also involves a cat who becomes an eerie metaphor for the boy. Some intense scenes in it.

Hmmm, sounds powerful even as pure fiction and had you stuck to the horror story something perhaps Stephen Kingesque (don't know if you like him or not but that is intended as a compliment.) On any particular Stephen King story you either love it or hate it, but you are never neutral about it. That is powerful writing.

[robkuntz]

Jul 10, 2017 16:27:49 GMT -5 Mighty Darci said:

Jul 5, 2017 18:00:33 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

"Everything's Alright." The latter was written (1987) shortly after I heard what sounded like a death screech from a cat on a warm summer's night. It started as a horror story and I changed it in mid-stride to a pure fictional piece about the death of a little boy in a drowning accident and the mother and father's immediate attempts to reconcile and move on. It also involves a cat who becomes an eerie metaphor for the boy. Some intense scenes in it.

Hmmm, sounds powerful even as pure fiction and had you stuck to the horror story something perhaps Stephen Kingesque (don't know if you like him or not but that is intended as a compliment.) On any particular Stephen King story you either love it or hate it, but you are never neutral about it. That is powerful writing.

Thanks.  I judged the story that was developing to be more powerful as it was revealed to be rather than what I thought it was, or might be, at the beginning.  Hope that makes sense.

Agree on King; I am not a fan and for several basic reasons.