Should Elves have their own magic?

[captaincrumbcake]

I have been pondering something that was said by one of the hobbits in LotR (I think it was Merry or Pippen). The exactness of it escapes me, but the context is roughly, that in some sort of reference to Gandalf (perhaps he was attempting to figure out how to get into the back door of Moria), one of them mentions "elf magic"... as if, well, Gandalf's skill and talent with the arcane is one thing, but "this is elf magic!" (Now that I think about it, it may very well have been about the elf runes on the door to Moria. Why elf runes would be on a dwarf door I never really understood!)

Anyway, I've been thinking about--that. Being a wizard, one would think a simple Read Magic spell would have done the job; or a Dispel Magic...or, something! But until Gandalf realized it was simply written in Elf magic (which he understood, but couldn't unravel the riddle? hmmmm) the party was halted.

Anyway, it got me to wondering: could there be Elf magic? Magic that is, basically, unknowable to any except an elf. Magic that, in many ways, simulates and replicates similar effects usually associated with wizardry? And if so, couldn't there be, even more arcane, Elf magic, that produces effects not even known by the highest of human wizards? (Elf only spells?) And--could human magic actually be actually just a watered down version of Elf magic, with much of the power of the spells lost in translation? 

Well, its something to think about, I suppose.

[Admin Pete]

It is a cool idea, if you write it I will enjoy reading it. If I had the time or if a player asked for it I would work something up.

[Vile Traveller]

I always thought so. I once ran a (too brief) B/X campaign where elves used cleric instead of magic-user rules (including no spell book, and all spells known), and there were no clerics. The game had a very different feel, but I think it helped. I meant to make dwarves and halflings unique, too, but never got around to it. Dwarves would have been the source of all magic items, and halflings would have had more thiefly/ranger-type abilities.

[robkuntz]

Not only elves but just about anything that is culturally and/or historically influenced by their beliefs and/or organization. D&D was a general broad-brush, but only an example of how to iterate other such systems with more specifics and detail. This is done in my own World of Kalibruhn in many distinct areas, including "Ancient Magic".

[Deleted]

Clerics/Priest of different faiths should get different spells ... While Zeus and Dionysus are of the same Culture/Pantheon and share a few basic interests - notably concerning sex with mortals - their spells granted would be very different ...

[robkuntz]

The Vancian magic system as promoted is fine for a generic rendering, with the idea that the Dying Earth is regrouping lost knowledge from bits here or there. But, when overlaid on a live world (i.e., not dying) where the cultures and beliefs are still strong and that have no unbroken heritage as in the opposite case in Vance's conception, then it really doesn't work as anything but as a generic "game kind". From each culture would have arisen its own magic system which would still be prevalent in the present. This is why when I was building Kalibruhn top-down that I was faced with the same problem, of which, coincidentally, I am writing about in its "massive" introductory work. It was also the reason why I championed very early on a new spell system for both OD&D and then later for AD&D and with the latter specifically starting with clerics and their religions.

[jmccann]

Feb 23, 2016 8:55:15 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

The Vancian magic system as promoted is fine for a generic rendering, with the idea that the Dying Earth is regrouping lost knowledge from bits here or there.

I agree with this, in fact I would generalize this: The {game system from OD&D} as promoted is fine for a generic rendering, with the idea that the {analysis of pulp-fiction setting with an eye to generating game elements, with a suggestion for a variation from OD&D as published}.

[jmccann]

On the topic of the thread I like the approach of modifying the various classes' magic use characteristics. This kind of variant goes way back and is evergreen. It is a fairly easy way to generate interest. There may be a balance problem if you worry about that sort of thing.

Even if you leave the mechanics alone, just doing something simple like restricting cleric spell lists by deity is an easy way to generate some interesting player choices.

[jmccann]

To clarify the post prior to this one by 2, I am not saying that all statements of this form are true. I am saying that this is a productive generator of OD&D variants.

[robkuntz]

@ JMCANN: I whole heartedly agree. The inclusive states of "variables," "variations," and "variants" are all part and parcel of the concept as forwarded by Arneson and then as reiterated by Gary and the former as OD&D.

[sepulchre]

Captaincrumbcake wrote:

as if, well, Gandalf's skill and talent with the arcane is one thing, but "this is elf magic!" ...one would think a simple Read Magic spell would have done the job; or a Dispel Magic...until Gandalf realized it was simply written in Elf magic (which he understood, but couldn't unravel the riddle? hmmmm)...could there be Elf magic? Magic that is, basically, unknowable to any except an elf. Magic that, in many ways, simulates and replicates similar effects usually associated with wizardry? ...even more arcane...could human magic actually be actually just a watered down version of Elf magic, with much of the power of the spells lost in translation?

I think you have it. This is the 'riddle' or account Socrates advances as recounted by Plato in the dialogue, Cratylus; about the lost meaning of words, as one follows a train of diminishing cognates in search of the root word. Each cognate revealing some semblance of the root word, the original meaning obscured or lost to time. The Proto Indo-European (PIE) root of magic, 'magh', means to have power or take form, similar to Socrates notion of images and forms in The Dialogues.  The distillation of words for friend at Moria gate is the key to Gandalf's translation of the riddle...as we are talking about a word, "friend", and the word is a spell that has nearly eluded his understanding.

The names of things, the words used to refer or signify, essentially metaphors make up both the mundane and the arcane aspects of language.  The arcane refers to those words, both magical and etymological, absent from the common tongue as one goes forward in time.   
a. that to which the word refers can no longer be found or remembered.
b. that to which the word refers, has been here all along and we do not remember what word to which it belongs.
c. words from other cultures, generally with more specific meanings are more fashionable or malleable.

To illustrate:
a. the Greek word 'cosmos', meaning harmonic resonance, balance, or unity; is known to the medieval world but does not gain commerce until around 1650.
b. The wizards tells Bilbo Baggins his name and the hobbit fails to remember that he, this grey wayfarer, belongs to it.  
c. The Latin, as plied by the learned and the clergy, effectively required the combined usage of three words to satisfy the meaning of the Greek, 'mundus', 'caelum', and 'universum' 

Naturally, arcane language would, therefore, be abstract and thus secret, rather than "watered down" as you state. Like great art such words are an act of compression and condensation, holding the gamut of meanings. And as Gandalf observes, "too simple for a learned loremaster in these suspicious days..."

Finally, consider the meaning of the arcane, born out in the word superstition. The Latin, 'superstes', signfies that which survives, “they are the dead remnants of old knowledge or opinion” as the occultist Eliphas Levi wrote. Some truth no longer known or a truth which has changed its aspect.


Edit: for the sake of clarity on an old post and a great thread. 

[finarvyn]

One thing that the B/X Gazeteer series got right was having different classes and/or spells for each region of the world. I like the idea that elves might have their own spell list, that clerics of various deities would have individual spell lists, and so on. It's a time-consuming process, however, and I tend to default to a "rulebook model" for simplicity.

As an earlier poster noted -- if someone writes one I might use it.

[Deleted]

Hmmm ... How timely to this discussion ... or at least part of it.

Divinities and Cults

[Deleted]

If you want elf magic to be different then it should be. If you don't, then it shouldn't.

Okay, we're done here. Somebody get me a beer.

[Deleted]

Also, considering Gary's opinion of Lord of the Rings, it's no surprise D&D magic started so different from Tolkien.

[robkuntz]

Gary was insincere and biased concerning Tolkien's works, mostly out of jealousy for their imaginative scope. Monsters, magic, even a class, the Ranger, was stripped for use in D&D, so how much more can one say regarding it being fitting? The elements are all derived by Tolkien from the same folk, fairy and myth sources that other "Fantasy" authors who Gary preferred stripped them from, excepting that the professor actually breathed life into them as a re-compositoned and re-imagined history. They were not just breathless motifs as with pulp fiction which Gary acknowledged as his favorite form of speculative literature.

[hengest]

To me one of the many fine aspects of LOTR is the sense of the in-world reality of each culture. As robkuntz hinted at well above, there is an excellent sense of not only elf "magic" (with in-world confusion about just what that means) but even half-elf magic (half-elf in the sense not of a strict 1/2 of each race in ancestry, but in the sense of a mixed race and mixed culture with Mannish and Elvish roots).  

I kind of like how it's handled in the RC with demihuman level limits on, which prevent elves from going all super on magic should the campaign even reach that high, but with activities absolutely secret to elves (or dwarves or halflings) that require a community effort...I think for elves it's some kind of ship that flies in the air or something.  I can't find it.  I don't think I like for actual play, but for an idea, sure, something that their energy is drawn to other than personal matters...

[captaincrumbcake]

I find the input into this discussion enticing. And it has got me to re-thinking magic, all together. How it is defined pretty much boxes it into a very strict band of thought. I'm not liking that idea, and I am going to spend some time expanding my own interpretive posts in The Lost Lands folders as I get things worked out.

For one, I am thinking that magic need not be restricted to the idea of casting spells, or, enchantments (etc.), as its sole application/s. 
In and of itself, magic is prone to do its own thing. Like nature does.
This, for me, helps explain why dwarfs, elves and hobbits have natural abilities that humans do not.
It also opens the door to expansion upon the abilities available to the little folk; without going hog wild like latter editions may have.
For example, in a world where dwarfs are at-home deep within the earth, mining, and digging out vast chambers and halls, perhaps they have natural abilities to do so, beyond that which we are all familiar with.

I must ponder this in more detail!

[robkuntz]

You get a +2 plus 1000 xp for thinking in design dimension, CCC!

[hengest]

captaincrumbcake 's comment reminded me of the Guugu Yimithirr people and language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guugu_Yimithirr_language): their language / socialization is so into cardinal-direction-like "quadrants" (absolute direction, not relative like left and right) that they have a magic-seeming ability to stay oriented to landmarks ("home" or other) even after being driven far away, blindfolded, taken to very unfamiliar territory, etc.  

I saw suggested somewhere that what animals do with hardware, the GY culture does with software.  Seems somehow relevant.

[robkuntz]

You mean like built in guidance systems of birds and the like, yes. There's a lot of room in various other apparent sources than the hierarchical one suggested by D&D and other ways of organizing such content to be feasible extensions of that base mechanical structure. I have done as much with my own system.

[captaincrumbcake]

Apr 18, 2016 13:33:37 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

You get a +2 plus 1000 xp for thinking in design dimension, CCC!

Thanks, hombre...

there may be hope for me, yet. 

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

I think it makes perfect sense. The Elves should have a different form and style to their magic with their long lives and ancient ways. Speaking in general terms, I could see Elves practicing a form of magic that is "more natural" in the approach in contrast to the Human system of study and learning by rote. This requires more thought...

[mao]

There should be 2 lists for spellseves
High Elves and Wood elves

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Feb 23, 2016 3:21:42 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

Not only elves but just about anything that is culturally and/or historically influenced by their beliefs and/or organization. D&D was a general broad-brush, but only an example of how to iterate other such systems with more specifics and detail. This is done in my own World of Kalibruhn in many distinct areas, including "Ancient Magic".

Feb 23, 2016 8:55:15 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

The Vancian magic system as promoted is fine for a generic rendering, with the idea that the Dying Earth is regrouping lost knowledge from bits here or there. But, when overlaid on a live world (i.e., not dying) where the cultures and beliefs are still strong and that have no unbroken heritage as in the opposite case in Vance's conception, then it really doesn't work as anything but as a generic "game kind". From each culture would have arisen its own magic system which would still be prevalent in the present. This is why when I was building Kalibruhn top-down that I was faced with the same problem, of which, coincidentally, I am writing about in its "massive" introductory work. It was also the reason why I championed very early on a new spell system for both OD&D and then later for AD&D and with the latter specifically starting with clerics and their religions.

I agree with Rob here that each culture would have its own magic system and that there would be a lot of variation in magic from culture to culture and add that different continents prior to sea travel would also have developed differences or after an apocalyptic event, cultures and magic would diverge prior to new contact being established.

Also I wonder what ever happened with the "massive" introductory work for Kalibruhn?

[mao]

Each Culture having it's style of magic Asumes in it that there is a diversity of ways of doing magic, this would have to be allowed by te availability of magic,acacadamies etc. It makes a lot less sense if there is only one kind of combustion engine, multiple formulas for gunpowder and gasoline, the differences in real life are very minor.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Sept 20, 2022 10:39:23 GMT -5 mao said:

Each Culture having it's style of magic Asumes in it that there is a diversity of ways of doing magic, this would have to be allowed by te availability of magic,acacadamies etc. It makes a lot less sense if there is only one kind of combustion engine, multiple formulas for gunpowder and gasoline, the differences in real life are very minor.

I like the premise, which I have seen in some fiction too, that there are multiple ways of doing magic. In fact 

There are eight classic schools of magic in Dungeons & Dragons, as originally named in Advanced Dungeons & Dragons: abjuration, alteration, conjuration, divination, enchantment, illusion, invocation, and necromancy. Each spell belongs to one of eight schools of magic.

The nine schools of magic are Abjuration, Alteration, Conjuration/Summoning, Enchantment/Charm, Greater Divination, Illusion, Invocation/Evocation, Necromancy, and Lesser Divination. 2nd Ed AD&D

AD&D both editions baked variable ways of doing magic into the game, although not by culture, which to me would be more interesting.

[mao]

either are valid but making spells culture is the way to go, not multiple systems

[The Perilous Dreamer]

If you combine the types between 1st & 2nd Ed AD&D you get
 1. Abjuration
 2. Alteration
 3. Conjuration
 4. Enchantment
 5. Illusion
 6. Invocation
 7. Evocation
 8. Summoning
 9. Charm
10. Lesser Divination
11. Greater Divination
12. Necromancy

twelve types or schools of magic and to that you can also add
13. Wild Magic

What others are there?

But these are less interesting to me, I prefer to have variation by culture and race/species.

[mao]

I was always fond of Metamagic(spells that effect your own spells and good), giving CLW