jeff
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Posts: 24 
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Post by jeff on Nov 4, 2016 9:43:39 GMT -5
Rob has mentioned that there were times when armies rode at the back of Mordenkainen and how Gary would visit different towns with his armies during play.
Has anyone else done this?
What was it like?
Did you use mass combat? If you did, did you use Chainmail or something else?
Rob, please chime in with how you handled Gary in these situations, as I'm interested in that aspect of the game.
Thanks in advance.
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Post by Mighty Darci on Nov 5, 2016 11:10:53 GMT -5
Thank you, jeff for this thread, I don't know much about this, but would like to! |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2016 13:02:22 GMT -5
Well, the times I was present for large actions, we did it D&D style, but we all knew CHAINMAIL. We'd say things like "The light cavalry will swing around to the left to hit the enemy heavy foot while our heavy foot engage from the front," sort of thing, and then Gary would roll some dice and some stuff would happen.
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jeff
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Posts: 24
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Post by jeff on Nov 7, 2016 16:25:07 GMT -5
Well, the times I was present for large actions, we did it D&D style, but we all knew CHAINMAIL. We'd say things like "The light cavalry will swing around to the left to hit the enemy heavy foot while our heavy foot engage from the front," sort of thing, and then Gary would roll some dice and some stuff would happen. Well, you see, that's interesting. You've got a group of players who have familiarity with an existing system, including the common terminology and what was likely outcomes. Those familiar with chainmail would likely know the most beneficial tactics using heavy foot, light foot, light cavalry, and so forth. Couple that with the implicit trust in the Gary (co-author of said mass combat rules), and you've got a system in the DM's head that the players have some familiarity with and that can be used to quickly resolve mass combats without resorting to the complexity in CHAINMAIL. Thanks for the response Mike, it helps to conceptualize the understanding that early players had of wargaming and the influence that it had when making rulings at the table by the DM. So this brings me to a conundrum. For players who are not wholly familiar with CHAINMAIL or any other mass combat system, how do I have large scale combats without them having to learn something like CHAINMAIL, BATTLESYSTEM (AD&D), War Machine (Mentzer BECMI mass combat), or another system? Hmm... but that really derails the the thread a bit. I'd like to hear some stories about when large scale combat took place and the outcomes, both on the battlefield and in the campaign (i.e. what did the local town nearby think, did the battles end up in campaign lore, did it affect regional rulers' perceptions of the PC, etc.) |
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Post by tetramorph on Nov 7, 2016 16:59:15 GMT -5
jeff , look up Delta's book of War. It is rad. We play tested and play tested and play tested and I think this is our most recent house rules document for my campaign: files.meetup.com/286932/MassCombat2015.docxBasically here are the rules of thumb: 1. Group normals into 10HD units of mass combat 2. HD = # of hits before incapacitated 3. HD + target AC + d20 = 20+ indicates successful hit 4. Mass combat units DEAL and RECEIVE 1d6 against HD (not HP!) 5. Only fantastics (3 or 4+ HD) can combat a unit as a unit 6. Check morale after EVER round a unit takes a hit: Chaos needs 8+ on 2d6, neutral 7+, law 6+ etc., Loss of commander forces morale check, loss of super hero forces loss of morale. As I learned from @gronanofsimmerya and actually play, mass combat is won or lost by morale. So, e.g., a bunch of 2HD creatures would be placed in groups of 5, skeletons groups of 20, most 1HD wonders in groups of 10. HD always 10 for a unit of mass combat. If you need to convert HD to HP damage, just take the HD damage and roll that number of d6 for HP damage. Incapacitated units save against loss by their commanding PC's saving throw. If they save, they are all back on line for next battle. If they loose they are gone. Dead. Group them into meaningful units; LH, MH, HH, CB, LB, SB, LI, MI, HI; etc. If they are mounted every 3 HD of the mount gives them a bonus. So, HH roll d20 + 11 + target AC = 20+ means successful hit. Elephants give a +2, etc. (By the way, elephants are rad!) MV rates as per armor class or mount, etc. Runs pretty smoothly. My guys out in the Outdoor Survival Board don't have to worry about building castles. They just find a chaotic Lord and take over. It's pretty fun. For even more abstract level stuff, we run it similarly to what gronan describes above. They say: we leave our troops to fight above as we infiltrate the castle to take out the Evil King. So about every three or four turns I roll some dice to see how things are going on in the battle raging up above. Meanwhile the hunt of the Evil King is on. This is pretty fun too.
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jeff
Wanderer
Posts: 24
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Post by jeff on Nov 7, 2016 20:41:40 GMT -5
Thanks tetramorph, I bought Delta's BoW 3 days on Lulu and I'm just waiting for fulfillment and shipping. I'm anxious to get it, and I'm certain I'll be delighted with it.
I was unable to download your file, even after logging into Meetup.com. Says server maintenance, I'll check back later.
I like the system you have presented, I might give it a try with what I am writing to see how it works. Thank you for sharing.
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Post by Mighty Darci on Nov 7, 2016 20:56:33 GMT -5
tetramorph is this something that could be run as a pbp?
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Post by tetramorph on Nov 7, 2016 21:00:37 GMT -5
tetramorph is this something that could be run as a pbp? Thanks. I suppose so. It would for sure be a part of Perilous Realms. I am going to shoot for setting it up in the new year. |
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Post by Mighty Darci on Nov 7, 2016 21:08:35 GMT -5
tetramorph is this something that could be run as a pbp? Thanks. I suppose so. It would for sure be a part of Perilous Realms. I am going to shoot for setting it up in the new year. Maybe we will be able to get several online games going over the next 6 months. Recruit several more active posters and get a lot of things going. |
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Post by The Red Baron on Nov 7, 2016 22:29:32 GMT -5
tetramorph is this something that could be run as a pbp? I prefer not to use miniatures when playing rpgs, but in wargaming the visuals are a large part of the fun. A pbp might work if there was a referee willing to set up some scenery, and take photos of the minis moving across the terrain, supplying each team with the view from their respective troops perspectives only. I'm 1200 klicks away from my lead and paint for at least a year, so I won't be running anything of that sort anytime soon. |
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Post by jmccann on Nov 7, 2016 22:45:49 GMT -5
A pbp might work if there was a referee willing to set up some scenery, and take photos of the minis moving across the terrain, supplying each team with the view from their respective troops perspectives only. That is something I have long wanted to do since reading about someone who played a WWII minis game that way. |
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jeff
Wanderer
Posts: 24
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Post by jeff on Nov 8, 2016 14:51:26 GMT -5
It would be really neat to have a partial simulation game where the terrain and miniatures are digital, and then people could input numbers from the roleplaying. Then it shares the simulations through an app. Regardless. I'm just waiting on the Book of War to arrive. I've read through Chainmail, and it's too chunky for freeform RPG play. gronanofsimmerya pretty much confirmed it when he described how Gary handled it. The players' familiarity along with the DM allowed Gary to make quick rolls and determine results for such scenarios, but I don't want my players to have to have familiarity with Chainmail to be able to have mass combat in my game. tetramorph, still getting errors from Meetup.com about that document? Could you email it to me? <my user name> at gmail dot com. Thanks. |
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Post by tetramorph on Nov 11, 2016 14:00:06 GMT -5
jeff , Okay, here is my most recent go at things: Simplified Mass Combat for D&DI've also got some stuff for defensive walls and structures, siege attempts, etc. I've got some cost lists as mass units for convenience. Just let me know how interested you are. Fight on!
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Post by Admin Pete on Nov 11, 2016 14:40:18 GMT -5
I would like to see the additional materials that you mention and anything else the goes with it.  |
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Post by jmccann on Nov 11, 2016 20:46:55 GMT -5
I'd like to see more. I'd like to see your siege rules. I have been thinking about sieges a lot lately, they were quite common and yet I don't really know how I would handle one.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2016 13:20:02 GMT -5
Wow, that's more complicated than I use.
ON the other hand I'm more than passingly familiar with medieval combat and CHAINMAIL in particular, so as ref I just keep a map of the battle in my head.
When units contact I'll just roll a couple of d6 for each and adjust for unit type. Same type of units rolling near the middle of the curve means that they'll just grind away at each other. Use of PCs as hero or wizard types, or maneuver of units onto flanks, is necessary to break a supported enemy unit's morale.
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Post by tetramorph on Nov 12, 2016 15:23:03 GMT -5
Wow, that's more complicated than I use. ON the other hand I'm more than passingly familiar with medieval combat and CHAINMAIL in particular, so as ref I just keep a map of the battle in my head. When units contact I'll just roll a couple of d6 for each and adjust for unit type. Same type of units rolling near the middle of the curve means that they'll just grind away at each other. Use of PCs as hero or wizard types, or maneuver of units onto flanks, is necessary to break a supported enemy unit's morale. That's great. So it's almost like a "reaction roll"? 2d6 for each unit? And then you just compare? How do you adjust for the unit types? |
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Post by tetramorph on Nov 12, 2016 19:40:23 GMT -5
Okay, here is what I've got for defensive structures and sieges:
I'm trying to keep things as close to what is familiar to us through dungeon exploration as possible.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2016 19:59:15 GMT -5
Wow, that's more complicated than I use. ON the other hand I'm more than passingly familiar with medieval combat and CHAINMAIL in particular, so as ref I just keep a map of the battle in my head. When units contact I'll just roll a couple of d6 for each and adjust for unit type. Same type of units rolling near the middle of the curve means that they'll just grind away at each other. Use of PCs as hero or wizard types, or maneuver of units onto flanks, is necessary to break a supported enemy unit's morale. That's great. So it's almost like a "reaction roll"? 2d6 for each unit? And then you just compare? How do you adjust for the unit types? Well, in CHAINMAIL the basic is "Same vs same, 1d6 per man, 6 kills." The most extreme cases are "Light Foot attacking Heavy Horse, 1 die per 4 men, 6 kills" and "Heavy Horse attacking Light Foot, 4 dice per man, 5, 6 kills." So I just think "Okay, that unit of Orcs has been fired on twice by light crossbows and now they just got hit on the flank by Medium Horse. Time for a morale check." sort of thing. Mostly I just wing it, with the dice rolls only to give me a clue if the unit is doing better than average or worse than average, until a morale check is needed. |
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Post by tetramorph on Nov 13, 2016 13:16:32 GMT -5
Okay now here are my tables based upon units of 10 for hiring convenience:
Of course, in my document, it is all in nice neat tables. But making tables in a post is kind of a pain. If you life the above into an MSWord doc, select the tables and say "convert text to table" using a "/" to indicate breaks, should turn out nicely for you.
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Post by Admin Pete on Nov 13, 2016 13:26:35 GMT -5
Thank you tetramorph and also for the instructions for converting it to a table. |
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Post by Von on Nov 19, 2016 2:27:18 GMT -5
tetramorph is this something that could be run as a pbp? I prefer not to use miniatures when playing rpgs, but in wargaming the visuals are a large part of the fun. A pbp might work if there was a referee willing to set up some scenery, and take photos of the minis moving across the terrain, supplying each team with the view from their respective troops perspectives only. I'm 1200 klicks away from my lead and paint for at least a year, so I won't be running anything of that sort anytime soon. I recommend taking a dekko at the Oldhammer battle reports here and here. Besides being absolute gems of the form, they were played remotely, and could easily adapt to the limited perspective you deem fitting. |
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