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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Feb 26, 2024 18:05:50 GMT -5
I remember seeing one of the playtest players from the pre-1974 days talking about how when Arneson started it was he wanted to run a game and he went and got players. Then it was the players playing in Dave's game in Dave's world, aka Blackmoor. That was the same thing for Gygax and Greyhawk. For the other people in the Twin Cities and in Lake Geneva is was the same here is my world come and play in it and people did.
I started in the fall of 1975 and the game was about exploring the referee's world. That is how I still game to this day here in 2024. The original game was about the referee and exploring the world the referee built, the referee went and found players that wanted to explore his world.
It was IMO, completely that way from 1970 to IMO around mid 1976. In July of 1976 was when the first module was published. Somewhere between then and now the game changed completely from let's go explore the referee's world to either one guy puts in the work and invite players and then we have a "session zero" where we decide what to play and what is or is not on the table. The guy that put in the work, may either have everyone walk away because they don't want to play what he has for them or he will have run something he doesn't even like, because that is what the players want. Or you have people who want to be hero's from day one of the game, trying to find someone to be the referee or seeing who draws the short straw to run the game.
Bitd, the guy that did the work and invited everyone (and vetted them) was always confident that the first game session the following were true:
1. He was running the game and created the world
2. Everyone that showed up was on board with him being the referee
3. They came ready to play and explore a new world
4. They weren't there to create drama, whine and complain, or pout or etc.
5. They were there to have fun, to engage with the world they were presented with and run with it
6. They trusted the referee to be an impartial arbiter, he was not there as an adversary or Monty Haul, no thumb on the scale for or against them or the monsters
7. They were not there to be passive spectators to be entertained, they were there to be active participants
8. And etc.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Feb 26, 2024 18:16:11 GMT -5
It used to be about the referee's world not the players adventures.
So you might ask how does that make a difference, here are a few ways:
Referee's World Players Adventures
1. TPK - new characters game continues TPK - campaign ends, DM chastised, everyone upset, go pick a new game to play
2. Player Death, new character game continues Player Death, story ruined, campaigns ends - everyone upset complete failure
3. Exploration was goal Winning is the goal
4. Combat was one of many options Combat is the only option, Players must win all combats
5. Progress in gaining levels was slow with XP Gain levels rapidly, Milestones
6. Each player gained XP and progressed separately All players level up at the same time
7. Players at a range of levels could play together All players must be at same level otherwise things don't work right
8. Acknowledgement of Referee Creative Control Players want co-creative Control and veto power over DM
9. No real world drama was a given Real world drama part of the game
10. Personal sexual proclivities was TMI, nobody cared Personal sexual proclivities now front and center, must be proclaimed and approved of by all
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
etc
Just to name a few things, maybe you can think of more.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Feb 26, 2024 18:28:36 GMT -5
Another change, the rules used to be there as tools that served the game, that is why you had house rules, you tweaked the rules to suit your game, once you decided what rules to use then you were consistent. If something came up that was not covered you made a rule and if it worked great, if it didn't work you fixed it. No arguments and no drama. Often you said, "How about this? Does that sound fair? To which you either got a better suggestion or a round of Yes's." What you did not get was a lot of whining and griping.
These days the rules dictate the game, house rules are a no no, because the rules must be complete and cover every nuance. If a ruling were needed in a game there would be a long debate and gaming for the day would be done.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Feb 26, 2024 18:35:20 GMT -5
Bitd you rolled 3d6 in order and played what you got. Because the game tested the intelligence of the player and the number were not that important outside of ability checks and as a player you tried to avoid ability checks. A lot of things that were later cover by proficiencies and non-weapon proficiencies, were things that it was assumed the average person in game would know those things and would be reasonably competent. I look at it like, if you grow up on a farm pre-mid 1960s or pre early times, then there would be dozens of things that you knew how to do and likely even moreso in a medieval world. People who grew up in rural areas pre-1900, pre-1800 etc had some serious knowledge about how to live. That is assumed for PCs.
Now everyone wants high stat number, because the game revolves around the stats and skills and feats and etc. Not the same game at all anyomore.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Feb 26, 2024 18:37:27 GMT -5
Bitd the referee created his own world and created the conditions under which adventures could happen and there were lots of options that the players could pursue.
Now you buy the world, you buy the adventures and that is about it.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Feb 26, 2024 18:40:39 GMT -5
Anyone those are a few thoughts off the top of my head - sort of a rant.
So what do all of you think?
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Post by JMiskimen on Feb 26, 2024 18:57:30 GMT -5
As a ref at a FLGS, I gotta tell ya, you're sadly pretty spot on regarding the modern player's mindset. I was having a deep conversation with my son about this just an evening or two ago and we have no clue how to alter or adjust this view other than advertise our games and keep on running them as old school - a few will adapt but most have little interest in our methods.
JM.
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Post by JMiskimen on Feb 26, 2024 19:00:44 GMT -5
I blame Ravenloft and Dragonlance.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Feb 26, 2024 19:31:09 GMT -5
As a ref at a FLGS, I gotta tell ya, you're sadly pretty spot on regarding the modern player's mindset. I was having a deep conversation with my son about this just an evening or two ago and we have no clue how to alter or adjust this view other than advertise our games and keep on running them as old school - a few will adapt but most have little interest in our methods. JM. I have had chances here and there to run my old school OD&D games for 10 years old and even with their exposure to current tech. They still take to it like ducks to water. In my experience is if you have one old school players to help show them the way, they adjust really fast. The problem is the older they get at their first exposure to old school gaming the tougher it is for them to adapt or even want to. Keep running them, the few that adapt, give us a foothold to have it carry on when we are gone. I try to save as much of this place and my blog in the Wayback Machine as possible. Then hope a half dozen people under 40 or 35 or 30, get enthused enough to link to stuff on their own blogs. Googles new policies will eventually lead to email accounts being deleted with no activity for long enough, which will probably lead to inactive blogs tied to those accounts being deleted. Word press blog will have ever a shorter life span when the author dies. Who knows how long this forum will survive. But as long as current tech level is around the Wayback Machine has a chance to be around for a while. But you need links to access the information. Which is why we need young people to keep it going on the internet in blog in whatever platform they want to use. There are lots of new platforms, but which ones will last as a platform and which ones will retain content after the death of a content creator, I don't know about that. Starting your own websites is not a solution, because those disappear when you stop paying for them. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Feb 26, 2024 20:19:30 GMT -5
I blame Ravenloft and Dragonlance. Okay this has me curious as to why you think that. I know very little of either. Never bought or used any of it. |
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Post by JMiskimen on Feb 26, 2024 22:19:01 GMT -5
It was an off handed joke ... however ...
Both focused DM story over player's choices.
JM.
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Post by hengest on Mar 27, 2024 18:10:17 GMT -5
As a ref at a FLGS, I gotta tell ya, you're sadly pretty spot on regarding the modern player's mindset. I was having a deep conversation with my son about this just an evening or two ago and we have no clue how to alter or adjust this view other than advertise our games and keep on running them as old school - a few will adapt but most have little interest in our methods. JM. Can I ask how old your son is, roughly? You and he are on the same page about this? |
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Post by hengest on Mar 27, 2024 18:11:40 GMT -5
As a ref at a FLGS, I gotta tell ya, you're sadly pretty spot on regarding the modern player's mindset. I was having a deep conversation with my son about this just an evening or two ago and we have no clue how to alter or adjust this view other than advertise our games and keep on running them as old school - a few will adapt but most have little interest in our methods. JM. I have had chances here and there to run my old school OD&D games for 10 years old and even with their exposure to current tech. They still take to it like ducks to water. In my experience is if you have one old school players to help show them the way, they adjust really fast. The problem is the older they get at their first exposure to old school gaming the tougher it is for them to adapt or even want to. Keep running them, the few that adapt, give us a foothold to have it carry on when we are gone. I try to save as much of this place and my blog in the Wayback Machine as possible. Then hope a half dozen people under 40 or 35 or 30, get enthused enough to link to stuff on their own blogs. Googles new policies will eventually lead to email accounts being deleted with no activity for long enough, which will probably lead to inactive blogs tied to those accounts being deleted. Word press blog will have ever a shorter life span when the author dies. Who knows how long this forum will survive. But as long as current tech level is around the Wayback Machine has a chance to be around for a while. But you need links to access the information. Which is why we need young people to keep it going on the internet in blog in whatever platform they want to use. There are lots of new platforms, but which ones will last as a platform and which ones will retain content after the death of a content creator, I don't know about that. Starting your own websites is not a solution, because those disappear when you stop paying for them. This is why we need a non-forum, PDF memoir from someone who has been playing from the beginning. Edit: Also, exalt for this thread. |
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Post by JMiskimen on Mar 28, 2024 1:06:57 GMT -5
As a ref at a FLGS, I gotta tell ya, you're sadly pretty spot on regarding the modern player's mindset. I was having a deep conversation with my son about this just an evening or two ago and we have no clue how to alter or adjust this view other than advertise our games and keep on running them as old school - a few will adapt but most have little interest in our methods. JM. Can I ask how old your son is, roughly? You and he are on the same page about this? He's 19 and has been playing since he was 6. He's a thoughtful kinda guy with sympathies toward his generation, but as a staunch conservative and an incredible student of history, He's pretty much on the same page as I am on rpgs. JM. |
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