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Post by Admin Pete on Feb 19, 2024 0:54:00 GMT -5
This thread is for the letter from Gary to Dave, the deposition may be discussed in a different thread.
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Post by Death Even XIII on Mar 10, 2024 22:00:47 GMT -5
I read the letter from Gary to Dave. Gary was encouraging Dave to write more about Blackmoor for publication. He was very supportive of Dave's work. I'm up to the deposition on page 135 which is November 28, 1980. All three of the authors from Don't Give Up The Ship were given 15 shares stock instead of a royalty payment. I'm not really seeing anything that shows Gary to be this monster that he's portrayed as during this time frame. I first saw the letter from Gary to Dave on page 121 of the pdf. That letter is almost all business, except the last paragraph where he says To me this comes off a little sarcastic calling the rotating room cute, seems an odd comment for guy from that generation to make. Then the immediate jump to, "I had a whole level that rotated." But maybe it is not intended that way. Perhaps Gygax just tends to sound snarky as part of his personality. Then he goes straight to ideas that Arneson might like that appear on the next page (122 of the pdf) and reminds Arneson to keep notes of all new stuff he comes up with and concludes with saying he will get a draft together and send a copy soon. |
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Post by Death Even XIII on Mar 10, 2024 22:10:14 GMT -5
I read the letter from Gary to Dave. Gary was encouraging Dave to write more about Blackmoor for publication. He was very supportive of Dave's work. I'm up to the deposition on page 135 which is November 28, 1980. All three of the authors from Don't Give Up The Ship were given 15 shares stock instead of a royalty payment. I'm not really seeing anything that shows Gary to be this monster that he's portrayed as during this time frame. Then the letter that you reference On page 123 of the pdf, the letter dated 27 December 1973. I suppose we have to remember there is a 9 year age difference between the two, but Gary comes across condescending and snarky. I am inclined to believe that is the way he treated everyone. |
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Post by Death Even XIII on Mar 10, 2024 22:19:38 GMT -5
Then later in the letter he says,
That appeared years later in The First Fantasy Campaign.
I think as per Rob Kuntz has said that the only person Gygax really listened to, the only one that could call him on things when he went off the rails was Don Kaye. It really looks to me like Gygax and Arneson could have worked together for a very long time, if Don Kaye had not had an untimely death from a heart attack.
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Post by Death Even XIII on Mar 11, 2024 9:47:49 GMT -5
I first saw the letter from Gary to Dave on page 121 of the pdf. That letter is almost all business, except the last paragraph where he says To me this comes off a little sarcastic calling the rotating room cute, seems an odd comment for guy from that generation to make. Then the immediate jump to, "I had a whole level that rotated." But maybe it is not intended that way. Perhaps Gygax just tends to sound snarky as part of his personality. Then he goes straight to ideas that Arneson might like that appear on the next page (122 of the pdf) and reminds Arneson to keep notes of all new stuff he comes up with and concludes with saying he will get a draft together and send a copy soon. Except the parenthesis shows the opposite as Gary used a similar thing with an entire dungeon level. We can't assign negativity to anything as we don't know Gary or Dave. Neither are alive to clarify their statements, so in the best interests of everyone we have to view this in a positive way. From all that I read between the two it was Gary trying to be helpful. Ok, let's try this again. I am 72, if Gygax was still alive he would be 86, the age of my youngest uncle. I have never in my entire life heard a man of my parents generation or my own generation use the word "cute" to refer to what another man has done as anything other than an insult or a slight. Further the jump to "did I tell you about my whole level that rotated" clearly implies both one-upmanship and you must have got the idea from me. It makes Gygax sound like a jerk or as I noted before maybe he is just naturally snarky as his personality. So the uncharitable reading is that Gygax is a jerk, the charitable reading is that he is just a bit snarky by nature. That is the way it comes across to me. |
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Post by Death Even XIII on Mar 11, 2024 9:52:52 GMT -5
Then the letter that you reference On page 123 of the pdf, the letter dated 27 December 1973. I suppose we have to remember there is a 9 year age difference between the two, but Gary comes across condescending and snarky. I am inclined to believe that is the way he treated everyone. I will reiterate that neither are alive to clarify their statements, so we must view the writing in a positive light. In all of what I've read from Gary about Dave was always with respect and pushing Dave to publish his personal setting. Gary treated everyone with respect from what people had interacted with him. As for Gary treating everyone with respect, that is at variance with what some people say. Rob Kuntz for one tells some stories about Gygax as having a volatile temper at times and being pretty rigid about getting his own way. He has also said that when Gary got on his high horse, the only person he would listen to was Don Kaye. So while maybe Gary was overall a good guy the majority of the time, the view that we should take everything he did and said in a positive light is your view and mine is that we need to remove the rose colored glasses and accept that he was human and not perfect. |
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Post by Morose on Mar 11, 2024 12:20:31 GMT -5
I think both of you are a bit on the extremes, I would imagine the truth lies someplace in the middle and as we weren't there we can't know. Even the remaining people who were there are going to have their memory clouded by what happened a few years later and in all the years since then.
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Post by Morose on Mar 11, 2024 13:03:55 GMT -5
I think both of you are a bit on the extremes, I would imagine the truth lies someplace in the middle and as we weren't there we can't know. Even the remaining people who were there are going to have their memory clouded by what happened a few years later and in all the years since then. I'm going with how I was raised to not speak ill of the dead unless you knew they were a monster ala an axe murderer and the like. Gary was flawed like all of us, but as far as I know he never committed any crimes that warranted defamation of his character in death. That's my entire problem with the entire attack on Gary is that he has no way of defending himself. You are right in that we will never know what really happened. All we have is the documents presented here. My original comment about the letter I cited was how Gary was trying to be helpful to Dave and getting his work published. I don't see that anyone in this thread was defaming anyone. You both have your view on what was written, but I do not see any defaming or attack, I just see two differing opinions. |
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Post by Morose on Mar 11, 2024 14:25:17 GMT -5
I don't see that anyone in this thread was defaming anyone. You both have your view on what was written, but I do not see any defaming or attack, I just see two differing opinions. I guess you missed what Wiztards did then in their defamation of him and Dave. My comment was about the general state of gaming not with any particular person. It also wasn't directed at anyone in this thread. No, I haven't seen what Wizards has done, I don't follow them, they have not supported anything I have an interest in, in what seems like a lifetime. |
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Post by simrion on Mar 11, 2024 16:50:20 GMT -5
I read the letter from Gary to Dave. Gary was encouraging Dave to write more about Blackmoor for publication. He was very supportive of Dave's work. I'm up to the deposition on page 135 which is November 28, 1980. All three of the authors from Don't Give Up The Ship were given 15 shares stock instead of a royalty payment. I'm not really seeing anything that shows Gary to be this monster that he's portrayed as during this time frame. Then the letter that you reference On page 123 of the pdf, the letter dated 27 December 1973. I suppose we have to remember there is a 9 year age difference between the two, but Gary comes across condescending and snarky. I am inclined to believe that is the way he treated everyone. My initial impression was the "cute" was an inside compliment from one devious DM to another though I see where the older male representatives of those generations could take it differently. I guess my brain defined the "cute" as short for "that should drive unsuspecting players nuts!" |
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Post by Admin Pete on Mar 11, 2024 18:52:16 GMT -5
No, I haven't seen what Wizards has done, I don't follow them, they have not supported anything I have an interest in, in what seems like a lifetime. In the 50th Anniversary book they went out of their way to paint Dave and Gary as racist bigots etc... That just makes me sick, I feel bad for their families that have to put up with their fathers and grandfathers being slandered. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Mar 11, 2024 18:55:42 GMT -5
Then the letter that you reference On page 123 of the pdf, the letter dated 27 December 1973. I suppose we have to remember there is a 9 year age difference between the two, but Gary comes across condescending and snarky. I am inclined to believe that is the way he treated everyone. My initial impression was the "cute" was an inside compliment from one devious DM to another though I see where the older male representatives of those generations could take it differently. I guess my brain defined the "cute" as short for "that should drive unsuspecting players nuts!" Besides which even those of us who are older grew up in different places and circumstances. I took it the same way you did simrion, even though personally I apply cute to little girls, puppies and kittens. |
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Post by simrion on Mar 12, 2024 4:49:50 GMT -5
No, I haven't seen what Wizards has done, I don't follow them, they have not supported anything I have an interest in, in what seems like a lifetime. In the 50th Anniversary book they went out of their way to paint Dave and Gary as racist bigots etc... Sadly history is rife with less-than-desirable beliefs, attitudes and practices. I personally believe one should be aware of such and view any media of that time in it's context. You don't have to agree with it but by the same token I think rewriting history is not a good thing. I'm a fan of REH and ERB and Lovecraft. They were products of their respective time(s) and their attitudes do bleed over into their respective works. You can either be offended by such or you can simply understand the "worldviews" of the times and move on. What irks me is the recent "discussions" of racism in games such as calling character races by the "half-" moniker, half-elf or half-orc now racist terms...sigh. I guess you can no longer have "monsters" in your dungeon, they are now "indigenous underground dwellers."  |
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Post by Admin Pete on Mar 12, 2024 6:49:27 GMT -5
In the 50th Anniversary book they went out of their way to paint Dave and Gary as racist bigots etc... Sadly history is rife with less-than-desirable beliefs, attitudes and practices. I personally believe one should be aware of such and view any media of that time in it's context. You don't have to agree with it but by the same token I think rewriting history is not a good thing. I'm a fan of REH and ERB and Lovecraft. They were products of their respective time(s) and their attitudes do bleed over into their respective works. You can either be offended by such or you can simply understand the "worldviews" of the times and move on. What irks me is the recent "discussions" of racism in games such as calling character races by the "half-" moniker, half-elf or half-orc now racist terms...sigh. I guess you can no longer have "monsters" in your dungeon, they are now "indigenous underground dwellers." It's like the people who think orcs are a stand in for black people. No one I've ever gamed with thought that, no normal person has ever thought that. Orcs or any other monster are not a stand in for any real world human. |
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Post by simrion on Mar 20, 2024 17:59:22 GMT -5
Sadly history is rife with less-than-desirable beliefs, attitudes and practices. I personally believe one should be aware of such and view any media of that time in it's context. You don't have to agree with it but by the same token I think rewriting history is not a good thing. I'm a fan of REH and ERB and Lovecraft. They were products of their respective time(s) and their attitudes do bleed over into their respective works. You can either be offended by such or you can simply understand the "worldviews" of the times and move on. What irks me is the recent "discussions" of racism in games such as calling character races by the "half-" moniker, half-elf or half-orc now racist terms...sigh. I guess you can no longer have "monsters" in your dungeon, they are now "indigenous underground dwellers." Well the problem is that the people that were there aren't having none of it. Margaret Weiss got into it with a group of woke morons who claimed that Gary was sexist against women on Twitter. She pointed out that Gary was a big promotor of women and their work. His entire resistance to the Choose Your Own Adventure books by Rose Estes was he didn't think they would sell. It had nothing to do with Rose being a woman. I'd say if anything, Rose simply wasn't a very good writer. I've read some of her books and am not impressed. As much as I love and respect Gary, his Gord novels were mediocre at best so he really wasn't a great author in his own right. I much prefer the "High Gygaxian" prose of the DMG and PH. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Mar 20, 2024 18:14:53 GMT -5
Well the problem is that the people that were there aren't having none of it. Margaret Weiss got into it with a group of woke morons who claimed that Gary was sexist against women on Twitter. She pointed out that Gary was a big promotor of women and their work. His entire resistance to the Choose Your Own Adventure books by Rose Estes was he didn't think they would sell. It had nothing to do with Rose being a woman. I'd say if anything, Rose simply wasn't a very good writer. I've read some of her books and am not impressed. As much as I love and respect Gary, his Gord novels were mediocre at best so he really wasn't a great author in his own right. I much prefer the "High Gygaxian" prose of the DMG and PH. Yes, one wonders how the Gord books might have been if he had written them in his normal writer's voice. |
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Post by hengest on Mar 20, 2024 19:40:36 GMT -5
I don't know anything about this, but have been enjoying this thread.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Mar 23, 2024 17:33:20 GMT -5
I don't know anything about this, but have been enjoying this thread. It's definitely an entertaining and interesting read! |
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