Why Skillless Systems are NOT Mother May I?

[Morose]

Specifically OD&D, the knock is often that skillless systems are just "Mother May I? games." Why is this not true?

[Morose]

Also, although most may not know this, Arneson in his original Blackmoor campaign had some skills and that is one of the things that Gygax removed for OD&D. See Gygax was not all bad.

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

I have no issues with skills in my games as long as they don't try to be all-encompassing. I don't think you can properly simulate ALL of the skills (professional, life skills, etc.) with a list.

I like to operate on knowledge. What would your character likely be skilled in in relation to the class, background, etc.? Anything that isn't a class ability and presents a challenge to the character requires a roll against 2D6. Maybe their backstory or some other training provides them with a bonus. You can make a note of that on your character sheet after it comes up in play; I usually don't go with skill lists and all of that. Eventually, you may have a few "noteworthy skills" listed on your character sheet after a campaign or two is under your belt.

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

Oct 4, 2023 23:27:41 GMT -5 Morose said:

Also, although most may not know this, Arneson in his original Blackmoor campaign had some skills and that is one of the things that Gygax removed for OD&D. See Gygax was not all bad.

Right?! 

Interestingly, Gygax's Lejendary Adventures RPG did skills in more of a bundle type expression rather than breaking them down into skills for EVERY. SINGLE. PIECE. OF. KNOWLEDGE.

[El Borak]

For easy stuff that everyone should know in a game world, they state what they are doing and they succeed. Normal circumstances, you cannot fail to build a fire unless you are an idiot. In pouring rain, do an attribute check. Low Dex very difficult, average or higher Dex difficult.

[dilvish]

Tons of things any human should be able to do. In a fantasy world if you don't know how to build a fire, you would be so useless you would not be leaving the safety of town, you would not be in the party. That would be true of many things, they would just be a given that you could do them. The other end of the scale is an ability check.

[hengest]

Personally, I think if you aren't happy with how the ref handles these things, talk to the ref about it. Ultimately it's all up to how the ref handles stuff and if you want to play in that game.

For me, as long as the ref seems fair, I think I'm just as happy with a failure as with a success.

[arjen]

I see skills and skill checks often almost as a type of saving throws, the check is thrown to avoid a danger/disaster and/or the character is putting something up for ante, something they can loose if they miss their check. In a dungeon delve this can be as simple as wasting a turn and risking extra wandering monster checks, or escaping a pursuing monster by opening a door or operate a lever in time.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

I think the idea that starting characters are ignorant is just a really bad take. Out in the real world an 18 year old kid that grew up in a rural on a farm or in a wilder area of the country has a ton of practical knowledge. People by the mid to late teens in a fantasy world also have a ton of practical knowledge. Players should be able to leverage that through the PCs.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Apr 1, 2024 14:17:49 GMT -5 arjen said:

I see skills and skill checks often almost as a type of saving throws, the check is thrown to avoid a danger/disaster and/or the character is putting something up for ante, something they can loose if they miss their check. In a dungeon delve this can be as simple as wasting a turn and risking extra wandering monster checks, or escaping a pursuing monster by opening a door or operate a lever in time.

I agree that ability checks in OD&D are a form of a saving throw, also I think there are times when we are rolling that we should not have to roll.

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

Apr 1, 2024 16:42:30 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

Apr 1, 2024 14:17:49 GMT -5 arjen said:

I see skills and skill checks often almost as a type of saving throws, the check is thrown to avoid a danger/disaster and/or the character is putting something up for ante, something they can loose if they miss their check. In a dungeon delve this can be as simple as wasting a turn and risking extra wandering monster checks, or escaping a pursuing monster by opening a door or operate a lever in time.

I agree that ability checks in OD&D are a form of a saving throw, also I think there are times when we are rolling that we should not have to roll.

TRUTH!