OD&D - Giants (Titans, Ogres, Trolls) and the Strength Table
Oct 31, 2022 17:38:23 GMT -5
The Semi-Retired Gamer and hengest like this
Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Oct 31, 2022 17:38:23 GMT -5
Let's take a look at Giants in OD&D and see how we might tweak them for our own version:
In OD&D, in Volume 2 Monsters & Treasure it lists out Giants as one Type of Monster, with the first entry as follows:
Then it describes Giants as follows:
GIANTS: As stated in CHAINMAIL, Giants act as mobile light catapults with a 20" range. Due to their huge weapons all Giants will score two dice of damage when hitting an opponent. Wandering Giants will carry from 1,000 to 6,000 Gold Pieces with them in their usual copious shoulder sack. Note that there can be many types of Giants including the following:
Hill Giants are the most common (60%) while the others are seldom encountered (l0% each type, total 40%). Those Giants who abide in castles sometimes have additional guards. There is a 50% chance that some other monster will be there: die 1-4 = a Hydra of from 5 - 10 heads; die 5 or 6 is either from 6 - 36 wolves or from 3 - 18 bears.
The above is the original write-up formatted to include here.
Many questions can be raised and I am only going to address a few of them in this post. We can safely assume that the Hill Giant acts as the Light Catapult, but then we see the Stone Giant acts as a Heavy Catapult, so what do the rest of the giants act as, Light Catapult or Heavy Catapult? Is the Hill Giant the only one that acts as a Light Catapult? Are the listed damge done by each giant enough or should it be more?
And given the info I posted here How Heavy is my Giant? Reality & OD&D! Justifying Large Monsters? How about we just have fun! how strong are giants compared to humans and just what does a Girdle of Giant Strength do or a Potion of Giant Strength.
In addition, the first supplement Greyhawk added Storm Giants and Titans to the mix.
STORM GIANTS: These creatures are found only in out-of-the-way places. Typically their abode will be a castle built underwater or on a mountain or upon a cloud. They are intelligent, about 24' tall, and do 3 + 3 dice damage (unless the alternate damage system is used). These giants are able to employ a Control Weather spell in order to cause a storm—their favorite kind of weather—when angry or in battle.
TITANS: Appearing as Giants, these creatures are far more handsome and intelligent. In fact. Titans are typically more intelligent than men. They are equal to Storm Giants in attack, although they may employ spells instead. Armor varies from class 2 to -3. They normally move 15" per turn, but certain Titans (10%) move at 21" per turn. Hit dice vary from 75 to 100 points possible damage. Spell use includes up to 7th level Cleric and 7th level Magic-User, total spells 2 per level. Usually only 1 will appear, but there are 10 total. In Lair 05%. Treasure Type A' +1.
A 24 foot tall Storm Giant weighs in at 12,130 pounds and the height of Titans is not given so we will assume it is the same as that of Storm Giants.
Now in the original rules it does not explicitly state any difference between what an average Strength and an 18 Strength can carry, it just says that Encumbeance (Weight which can be carried is for a Man 1,750 GP or 175 pounds, the Maximum Load/Person at Half Normal movement is 3000 GP or 300 Pounds. Now is that 300 pounds the Maximum for a battle hearty, fantastically in shape average Strength or is that the Maximum for an 18 Strength, the rules do not say.
Now in Greyhawk the first supplement the following details are added to Strength:
From the original rules 9-12 is Average, so we can see from the table that Low Average (7-9) has a normal encumbrance, High Average 10-12 adds 5 pounds, Above Average 13-15 adds 10 pounds, a 16 adds 15 pounds, a 17 adds 30 pounds and an 18 adds 50 pounds.
In the original rules a Potion of Giant Strength gives the recipient full Giant prowess, including two dice of damage when he scores a hit. Girdle of Giant Strength: Wearing this device bestows the strength and hit probability (if greater than the wearer's own) of Hill Giant.
In Greyhawk in reference to a Potion of Giant Strength is says: Referee to roll to determine which one of the various types will apply to the effects of the potion.
So given all of the above, how do you run this is OD&D and how Strong is a Giant not to mention Ogres and Trolls (since there are a Gauntlets of Ogre Power and Gauntlets of Ogre Strength).
Here is my attempt to redo the first the Strength Table and Define Giant Strength and Ogre Strength. Also I am going to clarify that Weight Allowed is the normal weight carried without penalty and the Encumbered Weight is the maximum weight that can be carried at half speed and Max Lift is the Maximum amount that can be lifted over head in perfect circumstances or in life or death situations. The Revised Write-up below assumes that you are using the Greyhawk supplement. Giants do two dice or three dice of damage plus the damage bonus noted in the revised table. Ogres and Trolls do one die damage plus the bonus noted in the revised table.
Giants do two dice or three dice of damage plus the damage bonus noted in the revised table. Ogres and Trolls do one die damage plus the bonus noted in the revised table.
In all cases using either of the revised tables, PCs using Magic Potions, Girdles or Gauntlets gian the noted benefits for Ogre or Giant Strength.
This considerably powers up Ogres, Trolls and Giants. So play testing is needed and as a consequence they should be more rare in their appearance, or more of the nature of you have to go looking for them.
This is one attempt to take into account the size of the monster, your comments are welcome. Do you thinik we should make the monsters smaller or do something else or do you like the above?
In OD&D, in Volume 2 Monsters & Treasure it lists out Giants as one Type of Monster, with the first entry as follows:
Monster Type Number Appearing Armor Class Move in Inches Hit Dice % in Lair Type or Amount of Treasure
Giants 1-8 4 12 8-12+2 30% 5000 GP + Type E Then it describes Giants as follows:
GIANTS: As stated in CHAINMAIL, Giants act as mobile light catapults with a 20" range. Due to their huge weapons all Giants will score two dice of damage when hitting an opponent. Wandering Giants will carry from 1,000 to 6,000 Gold Pieces with them in their usual copious shoulder sack. Note that there can be many types of Giants including the following:
Giant Type Hit Dice Lair is Approx. Size Unusual Characteristics
Hill Giant 8 Cave 12’ None
Stone Giant 9 Cave 15’ Throw as heavy catapult
Frost Giant 10+1 Castle 18’ Impervious to cold, 2 dice +1 hit damage
Fire Giant 11+3 Castle 12’ Impervious to fire, 2 dice +2 hit damage
Cloud Giant 12+2 Castle 20’ Keen sense of smell, 3 dice of damage Hill Giants are the most common (60%) while the others are seldom encountered (l0% each type, total 40%). Those Giants who abide in castles sometimes have additional guards. There is a 50% chance that some other monster will be there: die 1-4 = a Hydra of from 5 - 10 heads; die 5 or 6 is either from 6 - 36 wolves or from 3 - 18 bears.
The above is the original write-up formatted to include here.
Many questions can be raised and I am only going to address a few of them in this post. We can safely assume that the Hill Giant acts as the Light Catapult, but then we see the Stone Giant acts as a Heavy Catapult, so what do the rest of the giants act as, Light Catapult or Heavy Catapult? Is the Hill Giant the only one that acts as a Light Catapult? Are the listed damge done by each giant enough or should it be more?
And given the info I posted here How Heavy is my Giant? Reality & OD&D! Justifying Large Monsters? How about we just have fun! how strong are giants compared to humans and just what does a Girdle of Giant Strength do or a Potion of Giant Strength.
Height in Feet – Approx. for Giants Weight in Pounds – Approx. for Giants
12 1,510
15 2,950
18 5,120
20 7,010
24 12,130 In addition, the first supplement Greyhawk added Storm Giants and Titans to the mix.
Monster Type Number Appearing Armor Class Move in Inches Hit Dice % in Lair Type or Amount of Treasure
Storm Giant 1-8 4 15 15 30% 5000 GP + Type E
Titan Variable Variable Variable Variable 05% Type A +1
STORM GIANTS: These creatures are found only in out-of-the-way places. Typically their abode will be a castle built underwater or on a mountain or upon a cloud. They are intelligent, about 24' tall, and do 3 + 3 dice damage (unless the alternate damage system is used). These giants are able to employ a Control Weather spell in order to cause a storm—their favorite kind of weather—when angry or in battle.
TITANS: Appearing as Giants, these creatures are far more handsome and intelligent. In fact. Titans are typically more intelligent than men. They are equal to Storm Giants in attack, although they may employ spells instead. Armor varies from class 2 to -3. They normally move 15" per turn, but certain Titans (10%) move at 21" per turn. Hit dice vary from 75 to 100 points possible damage. Spell use includes up to 7th level Cleric and 7th level Magic-User, total spells 2 per level. Usually only 1 will appear, but there are 10 total. In Lair 05%. Treasure Type A' +1.
A 24 foot tall Storm Giant weighs in at 12,130 pounds and the height of Titans is not given so we will assume it is the same as that of Storm Giants.
Now in the original rules it does not explicitly state any difference between what an average Strength and an 18 Strength can carry, it just says that Encumbeance (Weight which can be carried is for a Man 1,750 GP or 175 pounds, the Maximum Load/Person at Half Normal movement is 3000 GP or 300 Pounds. Now is that 300 pounds the Maximum for a battle hearty, fantastically in shape average Strength or is that the Maximum for an 18 Strength, the rules do not say.
Now in Greyhawk the first supplement the following details are added to Strength:
From the original rules 9-12 is Average, so we can see from the table that Low Average (7-9) has a normal encumbrance, High Average 10-12 adds 5 pounds, Above Average 13-15 adds 10 pounds, a 16 adds 15 pounds, a 17 adds 30 pounds and an 18 adds 50 pounds.
In the original rules a Potion of Giant Strength gives the recipient full Giant prowess, including two dice of damage when he scores a hit. Girdle of Giant Strength: Wearing this device bestows the strength and hit probability (if greater than the wearer's own) of Hill Giant.
In Greyhawk in reference to a Potion of Giant Strength is says: Referee to roll to determine which one of the various types will apply to the effects of the potion.
So given all of the above, how do you run this is OD&D and how Strong is a Giant not to mention Ogres and Trolls (since there are a Gauntlets of Ogre Power and Gauntlets of Ogre Strength).
Here is my attempt to redo the first the Strength Table and Define Giant Strength and Ogre Strength. Also I am going to clarify that Weight Allowed is the normal weight carried without penalty and the Encumbered Weight is the maximum weight that can be carried at half speed and Max Lift is the Maximum amount that can be lifted over head in perfect circumstances or in life or death situations. The Revised Write-up below assumes that you are using the Greyhawk supplement. Giants do two dice or three dice of damage plus the damage bonus noted in the revised table. Ogres and Trolls do one die damage plus the bonus noted in the revised table.
Strength Hit Probability Damage Weight Allowed lbs. Encumbered lbs. Max Lift lbs. Open Doors
3-4 -2 -1 30 60 100 1
5-6 -1 Normal 50 100 170 1
7-9 Normal Normal 70 140 240 1-2
10-12 Normal Normal 80 160 275 1-2
13-15 +1 Normal 90 180 310 1-2
16 +1 +1 100 200 340 1-3
17 +2 +2 110 220 380 1-4
18* (01-50) +2 +3 120 240 410 1-5
18* (51-75) +3 +3 130 260 450 1-5
18* (76-90) +3 +4 140 280 480 1-6(1)
18* (91-99) +3 +5 150 300 510 1-6(1-2
18* (100) +4 +6 175 350 600 1-6(1-3)
19 Ogre/
Troll +6 +8 400 875 1,500 1-6(1-4)
20 Hill Giant +7 +9 750 1,510 2,590 1-6(1-5)
21 Stone Giant +8 +10 1,400 2,950 5,060 1-6(1-6)
22 Frost Giant +9 +11 2,500 5,120 8,780 1-6(1-6)
23 Fire Giant +10 +12 3,000 6,050 10,370 1-6(1-6)
24 Cloud Giant +11 +13 3,500 7,010 12,020 1-6(1-6)
25 Storm Giant/
Titan +13 +15 6,100 12,130 20,800 1-6(1-6)
Here is same Table based on just using the 3LBBs the original rules without the Supplement and without Extraordinary Strength:Strength Hit Probability Damage Weight Allowed lbs. Encumbered lbs. Max Lift lbs. Open Doors
3-4 Normal Normal 30 60 100 1
5-6 Normal Normal 50 100 170 1
7-9 Normal Normal 70 140 240 1-2
10-12 Normal Normal 80 160 275 1-2
13-15 Normal Normal 90 180 310 1-2
16 Normal Normal 100 200 340 1-3
17 Normal Normal 110 220 380 1-4
18 Normal Normal 120 240 410 1-5
19 Ogre/
Troll +2 +2 400 875 1,500 1-6(1-4)
20 Hill Giant +3 +3 750 1,510 2,590 1-6(1-5)
21 Stone Giant +4 +4 1,400 2,950 5,060 1-6(1-6)
22 Frost Giant +5 +5 2,500 5,120 8,780 1-6(1-6)
23 Fire Giant +6 +6 3,000 6,050 10,370 1-6(1-6)
24 Cloud Giant +7 +7 3,500 7,010 12,020 1-6(1-6)
25 Storm Giant/
Titan +9 +10 6,100 12,130 20,800 1-6(1-6) Giants do two dice or three dice of damage plus the damage bonus noted in the revised table. Ogres and Trolls do one die damage plus the bonus noted in the revised table.
In all cases using either of the revised tables, PCs using Magic Potions, Girdles or Gauntlets gian the noted benefits for Ogre or Giant Strength.
This considerably powers up Ogres, Trolls and Giants. So play testing is needed and as a consequence they should be more rare in their appearance, or more of the nature of you have to go looking for them.
This is one attempt to take into account the size of the monster, your comments are welcome. Do you thinik we should make the monsters smaller or do something else or do you like the above?
Monster Type Number Appearing Armor Class Move in Inches Hit Dice % in Lair Type or Amount of Treasure
Giants 1-8 4 12 8 - 12+2 30% 5000 GP + Type E
Storm Giant 1-8 4 15 15 30% 5000 GP + Type E
Titan 1 or 1-10 2 up to -3 15 - 21 13 - 17 05% Type A +1 Giant Type Hit Dice Lair is Approx. Size Unusual Characteristics
Hill Giant 8 Cave 12’ Throw as Light catapult
Stone Giant 9 Cave 15’ Throw as heavy catapult
Frost Giant 10+1 Castle 18’ Impervious to cold, 2 dice +1 hit damage
Fire Giant 11+3 Castle 19’ Impervious to fire, 2 dice +2 hit damage
Cloud Giant 12+2 Castle 20’ Keen sense of smell, 3 dice of hit damage
Storm Giant 15 Castle 24’ Control Weather Spell, 3 dice +3 hit damage
Titan 13 - 17 Castle 24’ Up to 7th Level Cleric and Magic-User Spells,
3 dice +3 hit damage 
