The Real Dracula. what do you know about the real Vlad the Impaler?

[mao]

I picked him as the villan  i would Be if I could be a villian. Thoughts on Vlad?

[The Perilous Dreamer]

I don't view him as a villain, just as I don't view Genghis Khan as a villain. They are both the product of their time and while Vlad was not a good guy, I don't view him as THE bad guy in the things that happened then. 

[mao]

Jun 14, 2022 9:59:56 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

I don't view him as a villain, just as I don't view Genghis Khan as a villain. They are both the product of their time and while Vlad was not a good guy, I don't view him as THE bad guy in the things that happened then. 

I agree that only using the word "villain " to describe him is misleading, being that his methods were evil, He is a villan that acidently did some good. His ttreatment of POWs damns him

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Jun 14, 2022 10:18:50 GMT -5 mao said:

Jun 14, 2022 9:59:56 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

I don't view him as a villain, just as I don't view Genghis Khan as a villain. They are both the product of their time and while Vlad was not a good guy, I don't view him as THE bad guy in the things that happened then. 

I agree that only using the word "villain " to describe him is misleading, being that his methods were evil, He is a villan that acidently did some good. His ttreatment of POWs damns him

That is IMO a modern consideration, that was never a thing in his time period or ever before that.

[mao]

Interesting take for you, given that you have chided me on my take on a paladin(LOL)

Morality is not based on year, day or place. This Greek philosophy fits hand in glove w The Western take of God

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Jun 14, 2022 16:09:24 GMT -5 mao said:

Interesting take for you, given that you have chided me on my take on a paladin(LOL)

Morality is not based on year, day or place. This Greek philosophy fits hand in glove w The Western take of God

Judging everyone in the past by todays standards can be a bit counter productive in studying history. Again I did not say he was a good guy, just not THE bad guy, there were others involved who IMO were worse than he.

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

Jun 14, 2022 16:09:24 GMT -5 mao said:

Interesting take for you, given that you have chided me on my take on a paladin(LOL)

Morality is not based on year, day or place. This Greek philosophy fits hand in glove w The Western take of God

Expand, please.  I don't think it's completely and absolutely one set of standards.  Other factors - such as philosophy, religion, and culture to name several - influence morality.  Avoiding an in depth and detailed discussion of real-world religion, etc. I don't see how morality isn't influenced by year, day, or place.  I recall in my reading of various histories that in some ancient cultures the older members that deemed themselves too much of a burden and beyond their usefulness would take themselves out.  I'm sure these people believed it to be the honorable and noble thing to do rather than succumbing to withering away from disease.  I'm sure that they would think the modern world with the attempts to stave off death by keeping somebody laid up in a bed on tons of drugs without any true meaning or purpose in their life other than to be here would be seen as immoral by these people.  

I'm not trying to point to specific instances.  I'm just pointing out how I see morality as being different at different points in history.  It's too easy to look at "the other" and see them as immoral or wrong just because they're different.    

[mao]

Jun 14, 2022 17:50:11 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

Jun 14, 2022 16:09:24 GMT -5 mao said:

Interesting take for you, given that you have chided me on my take on a paladin(LOL)

Morality is not based on year, day or place. This Greek philosophy fits hand in glove w The Western take of God

Judging everyone in the past by todays standards can be a bit counter productive in studying history. Again I did not say he was a good guy, just not THE bad guy, there were others involved who IMO were worse than he.

According to Plato and Socrates. There is a comic good it is of a light that you cannot look because you are not worthy( GOD?).., this goes very well w the biblical canon
You Are Not Arguing w me. You Are Arguing w Plato and Socrates

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Jun 14, 2022 18:25:41 GMT -5 mao said:

Jun 14, 2022 17:50:11 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

Judging everyone in the past by todays standards can be a bit counter productive in studying history. Again I did not say he was a good guy, just not THE bad guy, there were others involved who IMO were worse than he.

According to Plato and Socrates. There is a comic good it is of a light that you cannot look because you are not worthy( GOD?).., this goes very well w the biblical canon
You Are Not Arguing w me. You Are Arguing w Plato and Socrates

   

Plato and Socrates   Really!

[mao]

See that would mean that God varies by whim and his no input into moraliy as there is no standard

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Jun 14, 2022 19:18:27 GMT -5 mao said:

See that would mean that God varies by whim and his no input into moraliy as there is no standard

I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.

[hengest]

Many years ago I read the or a relatively early document about Vlad. It depicted some ugly stuff but was pretty fascinating.

It was from some Russian source and maybe I could find it again. Wikipedia advises me that the Russian sources have evidence they were translated from a South Slavic language, which means those stories were really making the rounds.

Wikipedia:

There are more than twenty manuscripts (written between the 15th and 18th centuries) which preserved the text of the Skazanie o Drakule voievode (The Tale about Voivode Dracula). The manuscripts were written in Russian, but they copied a text that had originally been recorded in a South Slavic language, because they contain expressions alien to the Russian language but used in South Slavic idioms (such as diavol for "evil"). The original text was written in Buda between 1482 and 1486. 


The nineteen anecdotes in the Skazanie are longer than the German stories about Vlad. They are a mixture of fact and fiction, according to historian Raymond T. McNally. Almost half of the anecdotes emphasize, like the German stories, Vlad's brutality, but they also underline that his cruelty enabled him to strengthen the central government in Wallachia. For instance, the Skazanie writes of a golden cup that nobody dared to steal at a fountain because Vlad "hated stealing so violently ... that anybody who caused any evil or robbery ... did not live long", thereby promoting public order, and the German story about Vlad's campaign against Ottoman territory underlined his cruel acts while the Skazanie emphasized his successful diplomacy calling him "zlomudry" or "evil-wise". On the other hand, the Skazanie sharply criticized Vlad for his conversion to Catholicism, attributing his death to this apostasy. Some elements of the anecdotes were later added to Russian stories about Ivan the Terrible of Russia.

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

Jun 14, 2022 19:18:27 GMT -5 mao said:

See that would mean that God varies by whim and his no input into moraliy as there is no standard

I'm not seeing how you get from A to B in that conclusion.

[Warrior Twin One]

Jun 14, 2022 17:50:11 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

Jun 14, 2022 16:09:24 GMT -5 mao said:

Interesting take for you, given that you have chided me on my take on a paladin(LOL)

Morality is not based on year, day or place. This Greek philosophy fits hand in glove w The Western take of God

Judging everyone in the past by todays standards can be a bit counter productive in studying history. Again I did not say he was a good guy, just not THE bad guy, there were others involved who IMO were worse than he.

The people invading Ottomans were orders of magnitude worse than Vlad Dracula. In fact, when the bulk of the impalements were done this was the Sultan's response.

The sultan's army entered into the area of the impalements, which was seventeen stades long and seven stades wide. There were large stakes there on which, as it was said, about twenty thousand men, women, and children had been spitted, quite a sight for the Turks and the sultan himself. The sultan was seized with amazement and said that it was not possible to deprive of his country a man who had done such great deeds, who had such a diabolical understanding of how to govern his realm and its people. And he said that a man who had done such things was worth much. The rest of the Turks were dumbfounded when they saw the multitude of men on the stakes. There were infants too affixed to their mothers on the stakes, and birds had made their nests in their entrails.

The Sultan approved of it and thought it was wise. Besides which the under the religion of the Sultan it was common practice to make captured males complete eunuchs and slaves.

[Warrior Twin Two]

Sept 14, 2022 18:20:52 GMT -5 Warrior Twin One said:

Jun 14, 2022 17:50:11 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

Judging everyone in the past by todays standards can be a bit counter productive in studying history. Again I did not say he was a good guy, just not THE bad guy, there were others involved who IMO were worse than he.

The people invading Ottomans were orders of magnitude worse than Vlad Dracula. In fact, when the bulk of the impalements were done this was the Sultan's response.

The sultan's army entered into the area of the impalements, which was seventeen stades long and seven stades wide. There were large stakes there on which, as it was said, about twenty thousand men, women, and children had been spitted, quite a sight for the Turks and the sultan himself. The sultan was seized with amazement and said that it was not possible to deprive of his country a man who had done such great deeds, who had such a diabolical understanding of how to govern his realm and its people. And he said that a man who had done such things was worth much. The rest of the Turks were dumbfounded when they saw the multitude of men on the stakes. There were infants too affixed to their mothers on the stakes, and birds had made their nests in their entrails.

The Sultan approved of it and thought it was wise. Besides which the under the religion of the Sultan it was common practice to make captured males complete eunuchs and slaves.

Fully agreed, there are a lot of things worse than death, even by impalement.