10-Year Update

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

After being given a spotlight post on my 2012 A to Z challenge about gaming in the 1980s, I looked at some of the posts and thought it might be interesting to do a 10-year update to the original versions.  Some posts have had several paragraphs added while others have just had a few lines added.  Generally, the updates are at the bottom of the existing post and in italics but a few of the posts have had (several) sentences added into the existing information.  If anybody is interested, the 10-Year Update posts begin today at A to Z 10 Year Update: A is for Advanced Dungeons & Dragons.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Off to a great start, nice update!  Re:

I would go with Delving Deeper or one of the other rules light retro-clones like White Box, Full Metal Plate Mail, or Iron Falcon. Why not OD&D you might ask? I may get OD&D in pdf at some point and do a home print but it sure would be nice if it was available as print-on-demand product.

One option is to download Delving Deeper version 4b in docx form and you can edit it.
I would suggest going here for the html hypertext as it for sure has the all the errata cleaned up and incorporated.
Next go here for the docx versions that you can edit yourself. That also, I think has the errata cleaned up and incorporated. (pdf also available at the same link)
Also at the second link you can download versions 1, 2 and 3 in pdf. Only version 4b is available in docx.

I also suggest going to Changes from Ref Rules V3 to V4 and giving it a read, in my case, I immediately spotted a rule that I would change.

The great thing about this is that you can get the current OD&D pdf and use it and my commentary threads to edit the docx files if you so desire into your own personal version. If you are like me you will add hobbits, ents and balrogs as well as the Barsoomian critters back to it.

This is currently the easiest way to do it. Or there are many other variations of this that you can do.

Also there is Delving Deeper V5 in Development and Volume 1 is mostly done, Volume 2 is partially done and Volume 3 has not yet been started on.

Also there is an DD V5 Annotated Book One Version and eventually there may be annotations of all three versions. I have not read it yet, but I plan to. 

Edit: Also you can just save the hypertext html version as a file and open it with Microsoft Word or in my case Libre Office and edit the entire thing as a single document from the get go.

Edit 2: Or you can just get the OD&D current pdf and copy paste the text into a Microsoft Word document (or your document type) and then use my commentary threads and waysoftheearth 's annotation to edit your own OD&D as directly as possible using anything you find of value. My commentary will let you restore most of the missing text. That would be a text only document. Another program can extract the images from the pdfs and you could add them back in if you wanted to do that additional work.

Edit 3: At this link is the OD&D Monster List (by Simon J Bull) (360 "mostly-official" monsters for the orginal (1974) Dungeons & Dragons.)

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Oh and btw, please post each link as you continue with your updates. It will help us follow along with your series.

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

Apr 1, 2022 9:21:13 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

Off to a great start, nice update!  Re:

I would go with Delving Deeper or one of the other rules light retro-clones like White Box, Full Metal Plate Mail, or Iron Falcon. Why not OD&D you might ask? I may get OD&D in pdf at some point and do a home print but it sure would be nice if it was available as print-on-demand product.

One option is to download Delving Deeper version 4b in docx form and you can edit it.
I would suggest going here for the html hypertext as it for sure has the all the errata cleaned up and incorporated.
Next go here for the docx versions that you can edit yourself. That also, I think has the errata cleaned up and incorporated. (pdf also available at the same link)
Also at the second link you can download versions 1, 2 and 3 in pdf. Only version 4b is available in docx.

I also suggest going to Changes from Ref Rules V3 to V4 and giving it a read, in my case, I immediately spotted a rule that I would change.

The great thing about this is that you can get the current OD&D pdf and use it and my commentary threads to edit the docx files if you so desire into your own personal version. If you are like me you will add hobbits, ents and balrogs as well as the Barsoomian critters back to it.

This is currently the easiest way to do it. Or there are many other variations of this that you can do.

Also there is Delving Deeper V5 in Development and Volume 1 is mostly done, Volume 2 is partially done and Volume 3 has not yet been started on.

Also there is an DD V5 Annotated Book One Version and eventually there may be annotations of all three versions. I have not read it yet, but I plan to. 

Edit: Also you can just save the hypertext html version as a file and open it with Microsoft Word or in my case Libre Office and edit the entire thing as a single document from the get go.

Edit 2: Or you can just get the OD&D current pdf and copy paste the text into a Microsoft Word document (or your document type) and then use my commentary threads and waysoftheearth 's annotation to edit your own OD&D as directly as possible using anything you find of value. My commentary will let you restore most of the missing text. That would be a text only document. Another program can extract the images from the pdfs and you could add them back in if you wanted to do that additional work.

Edit 3: At this link is the OD&D Monster List (by Simon J Bull) (360 "mostly-official" monsters for the orginal (1974) Dungeons & Dragons.)

All of that is solid advice and I will most likely take on such a project after I complete my secret project that is still underway.  It's slow going at the current time but I'm still pushing through to completion.  More to come...

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

Apr 1, 2022 9:30:05 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

Oh and btw, please post each link as you continue with your updates. It will help us follow along with your series.

I'll do that!  There are a few posts that are challenging to update in a meaningful fashion, but I am still putting some effort into doing those before they are posted.  There may be some filler but I'm making every effort to keep it to a minimum.    

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Apr 1, 2022 11:02:08 GMT -5 The Semi-Retired Gamer said:

Apr 1, 2022 9:30:05 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

Oh and btw, please post each link as you continue with your updates. It will help us follow along with your series.

I'll do that!  There are a few posts that are challenging to update in a meaningful fashion, but I am still putting some effort into doing those before they are posted.  There may be some filler but I'm making every effort to keep it to a minimum.    

Oh and have an Exalt for this month long project!

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

Apr 1, 2022 11:08:11 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

Apr 1, 2022 11:02:08 GMT -5 The Semi-Retired Gamer said:

I'll do that!  There are a few posts that are challenging to update in a meaningful fashion, but I am still putting some effort into doing those before they are posted.  There may be some filler but I'm making every effort to keep it to a minimum.    

Oh and have an Exalt for this month long project!

Much appreciated!  I only have Q to Z left to complete so I'm way ahead of the game.

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

Post #2 is up at lB is for Basic Dungeons & Dragons.  It's not as updated as the first post.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Apr 2, 2022 6:16:23 GMT -5 The Semi-Retired Gamer said:

Post #2 is up at lB is for Basic Dungeons & Dragons.  It's not as updated as the first post.

You mention this:

It is interesting to note that one of the rules changes that has caused quite a stir from 4E was first tried in this early set of the rules.

But you do not say what it is. So enlighten me, please.

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

Apr 2, 2022 9:41:49 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

Apr 2, 2022 6:16:23 GMT -5 The Semi-Retired Gamer said:

Post #2 is up at lB is for Basic Dungeons & Dragons.  It's not as updated as the first post.

You mention this:

It is interesting to note that one of the rules changes that has caused quite a stir from 4E was first tried in this early set of the rules.

But you do not say what it is. So enlighten me, please.

The Perilous Dreamer It's been 10 years and I can't believe I left this glaring omission in - and made it in the first place - but my gut is telling me that it's alignment.  4E did not have the full list of 9 alignments but only had 5 if I recall correctly.  Holmes, which I don't own a copy of, also only had 5 alignments.  This may have only been hinted at in the alignment section with phrases such as "chaotic with good tendencies" instead of spelled out by the numbers.  A little information can be found at this blog post, Nerdly Pleasures. Scroll down to the "Alignment" heading.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Apr 2, 2022 9:57:06 GMT -5 The Semi-Retired Gamer said:

Apr 2, 2022 9:41:49 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

You mention this:But you do not say what it is. So enlighten me, please.

The Perilous Dreamer It's been 10 years and I can't believe I left this glaring omission in - and made it in the first place - but my gut is telling me that it's alignment.  4E did not have the full list of 9 alignments but only had 5 if I recall correctly.  Holmes, which I don't own a copy of, also only had 5 alignments.  This may have only been hinted at in the alignment section with phrases such as "chaotic with good tendencies" instead of spelled out by the numbers.  A little information can be found at this blog post, Nerdly Pleasures. Scroll down to the "Alignment" heading.

Thanks for the link, also I looked it up and 4E was 5 alignments. It is funny all of the commentators about it, being in ignorance of Holmes D&D and its 5 alignments.

Also from the blog:

You say obsessed as if it is a bad thing

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

Apr 2, 2022 12:35:45 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

Apr 2, 2022 9:57:06 GMT -5 The Semi-Retired Gamer said:

The Perilous Dreamer It's been 10 years and I can't believe I left this glaring omission in - and made it in the first place - but my gut is telling me that it's alignment.  4E did not have the full list of 9 alignments but only had 5 if I recall correctly.  Holmes, which I don't own a copy of, also only had 5 alignments.  This may have only been hinted at in the alignment section with phrases such as "chaotic with good tendencies" instead of spelled out by the numbers.  A little information can be found at this blog post, Nerdly Pleasures. Scroll down to the "Alignment" heading.

Thanks for the link, also I looked it up and 4E was 5 alignments. It is funny all of the commentators about it, being in ignorance of Holmes D&D and its 5 alignments.

Also from the blog:

You say obsessed as if it is a bad thing

The 5 Alignment system never bothered me.  I think "less is more" when it comes to alignment.

 One man's obsession...

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

For anyone following this, The A-Z posts are only done on Monday through Saturday of each week with Sunday off until you go from A through Z.

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

Next up is C is for Choose Your Own Adventure.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Apr 4, 2022 2:28:18 GMT -5 The Semi-Retired Gamer said:

Next up is C is for Choose Your Own Adventure.

I have never used or played any of those games, but I would love to look at Zork in particular.

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

Apr 4, 2022 9:13:33 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

Apr 4, 2022 2:28:18 GMT -5 The Semi-Retired Gamer said:

Next up is C is for Choose Your Own Adventure.

I have never used or played any of those games, but I would love to look at Zork in particular.

Zork was particularly cool because there were books and text adventure video games.  Cool stuff!

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

I continue with D is for DC Heroes.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Apr 5, 2022 2:20:47 GMT -5 The Semi-Retired Gamer said:

I continue with lD is for DC Heroes.

Is that D or I D?   ID for DC Heroes is a fun topic in and of itself.

If we would have put a little more effort into it, I now believe the systems could have been converted between with just a little more patience. Marvel had ranks and DC had APs and a reasonable approximation between the two systems could have been worked out. The question is if the power level from one system to the other would have been an easy match. That would have most likely been the most challenging part of the conversion.

I think this comes down to how you think the base descriptions of the characters relate to each other. For instance, it is tough for me to consider any character (without a magical boost) to be Superman's equal. He safely (no earthquakes or damage) moved the earth out of its orbit and back. He is as fast as Flash, he can travel through time, etc. He possesses both power and ultimate control of his power. He can move the whole planet and yet punch an ordinary man without killing him. So I start with Superman and then start ranking everyone in relation to him. Those who use magic or are supernatural, you then work out how they relate to him. Dr Strange of course could freeze Superman in his tracks since we know he is vulnerable to magic. On the other hand he being the ultimate good guy can lift Thor's hammer and is more powerful than Thor on many levels, but Thor of course does to some extent use magic (although that is rarely acknowledged).

Batman, with or without the power suit? You could spend a couple of years going through this to get it right, or you could do it quick and dirty and that would still take a couple of months.

I never did buy any of these products. I've lost a few auctions for the 2nd edition of DC Heroes over the years. Someone keeps coming in and outbidding me by a substantial amount. I hear this is the "definitive version" of the Mayfair editions of the game so I will eventually get it at some point. I have seen two or three copies of Blood of Heroes at a local used bookstore. I saw it often enough that I would skip it when I found something else because "it hasn't been bought yet" until it was bought and I haven't been able to find it since. Lesson learned. I'll add it to the list.

I feel your pain here. The ultimate what if for me is this, if I had been in Lake Geneva when OD&D was first released in late January 1974, would I have scrounged the money to buy at least three copies, got them autographed by Arneson, Gygax and Kuntz and had them all notarized and then got a 4th copy to play with? I did not even have sense enough to buy two copies when I had the chance to do it 1975. Wish I had and I would still have a pristine condition set with a perfect box. We have so many things in life where we could kick ourselves for not doing something at a specific time.

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

Apr 5, 2022 6:27:39 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

Apr 5, 2022 2:20:47 GMT -5 The Semi-Retired Gamer said:

I continue with lD is for DC Heroes.

Is that D or I D?   ID for DC Heroes is a fun topic in and of itself.

THAT is mental fatigue!  Fixed now. 

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

Apr 5, 2022 6:27:39 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

Apr 5, 2022 2:20:47 GMT -5 The Semi-Retired Gamer said:

If we would have put a little more effort into it, I now believe the systems could have been converted between with just a little more patience. Marvel had ranks and DC had APs and a reasonable approximation between the two systems could have been worked out. The question is if the power level from one system to the other would have been an easy match. That would have most likely been the most challenging part of the conversion.

I think this comes down to how you think the base descriptions of the characters relate to each other. For instance, it is tough for me to consider any character (without a magical boost) to be Superman's equal. He safely (no earthquakes or damage) moved the earth out of its orbit and back. He is as fast as Flash, he can travel through time, etc. He possesses both power and ultimate control of his power. He can move the whole planet and yet punch an ordinary man without killing him. So I start with Superman and then start ranking everyone in relation to him. Those who use magic or are supernatural, you then work out how they relate to him. Dr Strange of course could freeze Superman in his tracks since we know he is vulnerable to magic. On the other hand he being the ultimate good guy can lift Thor's hammer and is more powerful than Thor on many levels, but Thor of course does to some extent use magic (although that is rarely acknowledged).

Batman, with or without the power suit? You could spend a couple of years going through this to get it right, or you could do it quick and dirty and that would still take a couple of months.

The Perilous Dreamer Agreed.  I believe that in the Designer's Notes that the author even states that if 2 powers are the same AP level in DC Heroes and all things are basically even then the edge goes to the magic-based power.

I wasn't clear in my thoughts about the power scale.  I see that now with more time (and more rest) since I posted.  While both Marvel and DC games can accommodate a wide range of power levels, DC Heroes handles the upper levels better because Superman has stats that are in the double-digit range; meaning that someone like Robin might have a strength of say 3 while Superman has a 40. Not the actual numbers but just used for this explanation.  On the downside, the lower numbers don't have a huge difference between them. Some concessions had to be made.  Batman had to be given a strength score comparable to Olympic levels if I recall correctly.  There was some give and take but the DC Heroes game system can handle Jimmy Olsen and Superman and beyond all on the same scall.

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

I continue on with E is for Expert Set.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Apr 6, 2022 5:44:49 GMT -5 The Semi-Retired Gamer said:

I continue on with E is for Expert Set.

This is a great series and well worth redoing.

For those you that aren't aware, the Moldvay Expert rulebook has a section on page 8 about levels beyond those listed that suggests higher level benefits but also mentions the DM can "wait until the D&D Companion supplement is released which will detail levels up to 36 in more detail.". Although this particular Companion volume was never released, there are at least 3 fan versions found at various sites on the internet.

Do you have links to those fan versions of a Companion Volume?

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

Apr 6, 2022 11:33:22 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

Apr 6, 2022 5:44:49 GMT -5 The Semi-Retired Gamer said:

I continue on with E is for Expert Set.

This is a great series and well worth redoing.

For those you that aren't aware, the Moldvay Expert rulebook has a section on page 8 about levels beyond those listed that suggests higher level benefits but also mentions the DM can "wait until the D&D Companion supplement is released which will detail levels up to 36 in more detail.". Although this particular Companion volume was never released, there are at least 3 fan versions found at various sites on the internet.

Do you have links to those fan versions of a Companion Volume?

Thanks, The Perilous Dreamer !  I had originally planned on including links to the free pdf expansions, but I kept finding dead links.  After a little more searching I did find several documents for Levels Beyond Basic.  Just look to the right side of the page for the Google Drive Downloads and there are the links.  Over at DriveThruRPG there is the B/X Companion for $12.99 but that is for B/X not Holmes specifically.

Two other files that may be of interest are:

H_77 and H Lvl 12.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Apr 6, 2022 17:16:07 GMT -5 The Semi-Retired Gamer said:

Apr 6, 2022 11:33:22 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

This is a great series and well worth redoing.
Do you have links to those fan versions of a Companion Volume?

Thanks, The Perilous Dreamer !  I had originally planned on including links to the free pdf expansions, but I kept finding dead links.  After a little more searching I did find several documents for Levels Beyond Basic.  Just look to the right side of the page for the Google Drive Downloads and there are the links.  Over at DriveThruRPG there is the B/X Companion for $12.99 but that is for B/X not Holmes specifically.

Two other files that may be of interest are:

H_77 and H Lvl 12.

Wow that is really cool, except I am not going to pay $12.99 for that one, I might go $5.00 but not really more.    The blog Prime Requisite is one I had not run across before, so I have some reading to do!   Thanks!

Oh and the last one the attachment is not working.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Hmmm on the Google Drive Downloads, starting with this one "Reference Tables 1-5 v8" and below, they come back access denied and show you a block to send a request for access. Do these show that way for you too?

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

Apr 6, 2022 17:24:41 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

Apr 6, 2022 17:16:07 GMT -5 The Semi-Retired Gamer said:

Thanks, The Perilous Dreamer !  I had originally planned on including links to the free pdf expansions, but I kept finding dead links.  After a little more searching I did find several documents for Levels Beyond Basic.  Just look to the right side of the page for the Google Drive Downloads and there are the links.  Over at DriveThruRPG there is the B/X Companion for $12.99 but that is for B/X not Holmes specifically.

Two other files that may be of interest are:

H_77 and H Lvl 12.

Wow that is really cool, except I am not going to pay $12.99 for that one, I might go $5.00 but not really more.    The blog Prime Requisite is one I had not run across before, so I have some reading to do!   Thanks!

Oh and the last one the attachment is not working.

I removed the attachment because it was the same as H_77 above.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Apr 6, 2022 18:05:45 GMT -5 The Semi-Retired Gamer said:

Apr 6, 2022 17:24:41 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

Wow that is really cool, except I am not going to pay $12.99 for that one, I might go $5.00 but not really more.    The blog Prime Requisite is one I had not run across before, so I have some reading to do!   Thanks!

Oh and the last one the attachment is not working.

I removed the attachment because it was the same as H_77 above.

Ah, that would explain it!

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

Another post with F is for Friday the 13th.  We didn't just game together back in the 80s .

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

Apr 6, 2022 17:30:55 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

Hmmm on the Google Drive Downloads, starting with this one "Reference Tables 1-5 v8" and below, they come back access denied and show you a block to send a request for access. Do these show that way for you too?

I didn't attempt to access all, just the first 2.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Apr 7, 2022 2:12:47 GMT -5 The Semi-Retired Gamer said:

Another post with F is for Friday the 13th.  We didn't just game together back in the 80s .

I have an narrow taste in horror, I like the Edgar Allan Poe style of horror.