Mythic Underworld, Mythic Wilderness, Mythic Worlds, Mythic Other

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Down in the The Murkhill Workshop there are four sub-forums, they are:

1. Murkhill's Mythic Underworld and Living Dungeons
2. Murkhill's Deepest Darkest Forests
3. Murkhill's Alternate Realities Campaign Settings
4. Murkhill's Post-Apocalyptic Campaign Settings

In my case, I see these four things as being different sides of a coin which instead of two sides, though it has that appearance, but it really has four sides because the laws of reality break down when you flip this coin.

Some time ago Philotomy who first posted about the notion of a dungeon as a "mythic underworld" said this:

“a mega dungeon should have a certain amount of verisimilitude and internal consistency, but it is an underworld: a place where the normal laws of reality may not apply, and may be bent, warped, or broken.”

Now in my mind, that applies to all four of the above noted areas: megadungeons, forests/wilderness, alternate realities and post-apocalyptic settings. In fact, I think these can and should be mixed. There are places where the veil between this and other worlds grows thin and things can happen. Rules bend or are broken, time might flow any direction. Weird and mysterious places where anything might happen and no one comes back from them, if they come back, without being changed.

Your thoughts?

[hengest]

(Have an Exalt for what promises to be an interesting thread.)

I would say it can likely be applied to the first two and I can see that it can be applied to the last two, although it seems less obvious to me (maybe I don't have enough experience with such settings).  But I do see how it makes sense and, off the top of my head, I wonder if it's because you need a certain amount of uncertainty and tension to make interacting with the game world worthwhile. There needs to be a good degree of consistency so it's not just total chaos, but you also need a dash of insanity and unreason thrown in so you can get "traction."  I think of it this way: if the game world were perfectly understandable and consistent...well, how engaging would that really be?

We know instinctively that our senses do not give us the whole story.  People use various substances and practices to try to see through the veil.  While these practices may be viewed as overall beneficial or harmful, the fact that children are so interested in spinning around to get dizzy suggests that wanting to mess with how we see things and how we locate ourselves in time and space is very common to humans across cultures (a friend suggested this to me many years ago).

This is the beauty of old-school gaming and all gaming that is to my taste at all: it's a way to interact directly with what we know without knowing through the world that the ref makes available.  It cuts through the veneer of modern life and allows us to experience things in terms that are at least closer to the truth that we try to get back to throughout life.  The same can be said of any great art, I guess, but gaming has its own flavor and benefits that are worth preserving and developing.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

I would also say that:

“a mega dungeon should have a certain amount of verisimilitude and internal consistency, but it is an underworld: a place where the normal laws of reality may not apply, and may be bent, warped, or broken.”

applies to the real world way more than we want to admit.

[Morose]

I am used to the mythic underworld, but did not think of extending it in this way. Thank you!

[arjen]

The idea of areas, or the place beyond a certain barrier, having it's own rules and realities but still are real enough to affect you and you can take part it it "back" (even if it works differently "back home" is very appealing and can work wonders in creating a feeling of 'wonder, weirdness and danger' in the players. "Beyond this Cellar Door, Garden Wall, Copse of Trees, Cave Opening you will enter a new place were stuff is 'Different', be careful".

It reminds me of Neil Gaiman's "Stardust" or "Neverwhere", Andre Norton's Witch Worlds "Escore", the tv cartoon "Over the Garden Wall" (even Adventure Time) or the element Terry Pratchett would call "narrativium".

[hengest]

Aug 25, 2021 16:38:51 GMT -5 arjen said:

The idea of areas, or the place beyond a certain barrier, having it's own rules and realities but still are real enough to affect you and you can take part it it "back" (even if it works differently "back home" is very appealing and can work wonders in creating a feeling of 'wonder, weirdness and danger' in the players. "Beyond this Cellar Door, Garden Wall, Copse of Trees, Cave Opening you will enter a new place were stuff is 'Different', be careful".

It reminds me of Neil Gaiman's "Stardust" or "Neverwhere", Andre Norton's Witch Worlds "Escore", the tv cartoon "Over the Garden Wall" (even Adventure Time) or the element Terry Pratchett would call "narrativium".

"Even if it works differently back home"

Very suggestive, arjen. I like it. Have you played with this idea?

[arjen]

Aug 25, 2021 18:42:33 GMT -5 hengest said:

Aug 25, 2021 16:38:51 GMT -5 arjen said:

The idea of areas, or the place beyond a certain barrier, having it's own rules and realities but still are real enough to affect you and you can take part it it "back" (even if it works differently "back home" is very appealing and can work wonders in creating a feeling of 'wonder, weirdness and danger' in the players. "Beyond this Cellar Door, Garden Wall, Copse of Trees, Cave Opening you will enter a new place were stuff is 'Different', be careful".

It reminds me of Neil Gaiman's "Stardust" or "Neverwhere", Andre Norton's Witch Worlds "Escore", the tv cartoon "Over the Garden Wall" (even Adventure Time) or the element Terry Pratchett would call "narrativium".

"Even if it works differently back home"

Very suggestive, arjen. I like it. Have you played with this idea?

Apart from some situational magic items like sword +1 (+2 when underground) or cloaks that specifically help with hiding in forests or dungeons but not in a mythical sense.


In many of my games I do have used minor godlings or ascended mages/clerics/heroes that could have an effect on their direct lair/demesne/domain that fit their divine "role" or "portfolio" (The book Petty Gods is a great source of inspiration). The effects could be stuff like animals being able to talk in a certain part of the woods (they would loose that ability if they moved out of that part of the woods), not being able to be tracked or scryed when in a set of caves or healing is faster of slower.

I've also tied the use (or a geas/geis) to a magical item and a place. For example there was this abandoned gate to a destroyed dwarven kingdom that has magical adamantium plate mail +2, however whomever would wear this armor outside a 50 yard area away from the gate would receive 5d10 damage each day (starting 1 turn after leaving the gate area, giving the wearer time to return, the armor would give a warning to the wearer). For the PC's this would mean that they could use it there and then (this area could be their resting area for instance) but not take it as treasure. Then again, if they were able to lure that pesky dragon or orc horde to the gate they could use the armor to defeat these enemies.

[restless]

Aug 25, 2021 16:38:51 GMT -5 arjen said:

The idea of areas, or the place beyond a certain barrier, having it's own rules and realities but still are real enough to affect you and you can take part it it "back" (even if it works differently "back home" is very appealing and can work wonders in creating a feeling of 'wonder, weirdness and danger' in the players. "Beyond this Cellar Door, Garden Wall, Copse of Trees, Cave Opening you will enter a new place were stuff is 'Different', be careful".

It reminds me of Neil Gaiman's "Stardust" or "Neverwhere", Andre Norton's Witch Worlds "Escore", the tv cartoon "Over the Garden Wall" (even Adventure Time) or the element Terry Pratchett would call "narrativium".

I am messing with this idea a bit, although it's still fuzzy around the edges.  The setting I am working on allows "the underworld" to seep in and attach itself where Chaos takes hold, taking root to the fabric of reality and Order.  The source of Chaos is a little fuzzy with me, but it can be local godlings, a powerful magical item, an animal or monster that has has become tainted by a source of natural magic, etc.  All of these things can be discovered and taken "back home," and the effects may follow in some form, so you have to manage how much Chaos do you want to hold to for power before it becomes too difficult to manage?

Which came first, the Chaos or the one it infects?  Chicken-and-egg problem.  Perhaps they are related?  Who knows?

[hengest]

arjen restless I have not been able to post much, but have been following the very interesting posts from you both. Re: the above, sorry for the shameless plug, but it sounds like these ideas have some flavor and notions in common with something I worked on earlier this year (and keep returning to in my head), the central ideas of which are represented on this thread here.  I remembered the basic idea when I read arjen's post just above.  Anyway.  Cool stuff, you guys.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Yeah, a lot of good ideas here, fun stuff.

[Traveroark]

I would describe this as sprawling chaos and I would love to play in this world. Take the first two and locate them in number 4, then have portals (something you are famous for using) and have them move randomly between alternate realities as well.