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Post by mao on Jul 28, 2021 1:43:59 GMT -5
What are some thoughts and home brew about sleep? I banned it and nobody played mages. Was there a connection or was it my low level of play> I never liked sleep, overpowered. One of the good things about later ed.s is the nerfing of sleep. That's what I should have done instead of out right banning it.
I get all the arguments about how weak mages are at low levels. With sleep, disagree big time. Compare it to many 3rd level spells, you'd rather have sleep , right?
So what are your thoughts? What have you done? What do you plan on the future? I want to listen.
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Sleep
Jul 28, 2021 10:02:24 GMT -5
Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jul 28, 2021 10:02:24 GMT -5
I have always loved the sleep spell and have toyed with higher level more powerful versions of it. Back in the day I interpreted it with "ands" and not with "ors." in how it affected the various groups.
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Sleep
Jul 28, 2021 10:05:37 GMT -5
Post by mao on Jul 28, 2021 10:05:37 GMT -5
Look at the list of 3rd L mage spell, I'll wait. Back? ok now how many of them would you rather have sleep instead of?
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Post by hengest on Jul 29, 2021 13:20:40 GMT -5
I see what you mean about 3rd level spells. I guess I basically like Sleep...I think of it not as so powerful because so useful but more like it's a minor spell (causes people to fall asleep which they are inclined to do anyway). The fact that you can then immobilize them or whatever is a side effect of what sleep is, not because the spell is so powerful.
I can see why you wouldn't be into it, though.
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Sleep
Jul 29, 2021 14:34:02 GMT -5
Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jul 29, 2021 14:34:02 GMT -5
Look at the list of 3rd L mage spell, I'll wait. Back? ok now how many of them would you rather have sleep instead of? As a 1st level magic-user I would trade Sleep for any of the following 3rd Level Spells Fire Ball Infravision Lightning Bolt Protection from Normal Missiles Water Breathing |
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Sleep
Jul 29, 2021 14:37:09 GMT -5
Post by mao on Jul 29, 2021 14:37:09 GMT -5
Look at the list of 3rd L mage spell, I'll wait. Back? ok now how many of them would you rather have sleep instead of? As a 1st level magic-user I would trade Sleep for any of the following 3rd Level Spells Fire Ball Infravision Lightning Bolt Protection from Normal Missiles Water Breathing Yea but which third level spells would you trade for sleep?(posted another cantrip) |
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Sleep
Jul 29, 2021 14:38:23 GMT -5
Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jul 29, 2021 14:38:23 GMT -5
As a 1st level magic-user I would trade Sleep for any of the following 3rd Level Spells Fire Ball Infravision Lightning Bolt Protection from Normal Missiles Water Breathing Yea but which third level spells would you trade for sleep?(posted another cantrip) Hold Person and Suggestion, but none of the prime time 3rd level spells. |
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Sleep
Jul 29, 2021 14:41:57 GMT -5
Post by mao on Jul 29, 2021 14:41:57 GMT -5
See?
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Sleep
Jul 29, 2021 16:09:53 GMT -5
Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jul 29, 2021 16:09:53 GMT -5
See what, that I put 80% of the third level spells ahead of sleep? Hold Person and Suggestion are really 1st level spells IMO. |
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Post by mao on Jul 29, 2021 16:12:53 GMT -5
ok
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Post by restless on Aug 11, 2021 18:47:06 GMT -5
I just grant a save versus Sleep. Seems to nip the problems in the bud.
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Post by hengest on Aug 11, 2021 18:49:14 GMT -5
Maybe make it abusable, with terrible delayed consequences for abuse of it.
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Post by restless on Aug 11, 2021 18:50:18 GMT -5
Abusable, like a drug?
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Post by restless on Aug 11, 2021 18:54:18 GMT -5
Okay, here's an idea: Sleep has an area of effect that centers on the caster, and rather than affecting the lowest hit dice it affects the closest first, caster included.
Unless you are playing a kamikaze wizard then the utility of Sleep as an instant win are curtailed significantly.
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Post by hengest on Aug 11, 2021 18:57:11 GMT -5
Okay, here's an idea: Sleep has an area of effect that centers on the caster, and rather than affecting the lowest hit dice it affects the closest first, caster included. Unless you are playing a kamikaze wizard then the utility of Sleep as an instant win are curtailed significantly. I like this "self-centered" version. Completely changes the uses if it also hits friendly units... Not quite what I meant, although that's another line of thought. I meant "hey, let MUs knock people out with it left and right, and who knows, maybe the locals don't like being killed or looted while unconscious and might do something about it." |
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Post by restless on Aug 11, 2021 19:13:49 GMT -5
Not quite what I meant, although that's another line of thought. I meant "hey, let MUs knock people out with it left and right, and who knows, maybe the locals don't like being killed or looted while unconscious and might do something about it." Why do I have a feeling I used to run a different style of game?  |
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Post by Voldar on Aug 11, 2021 19:33:57 GMT -5
I just grant a save versus Sleep. Seems to nip the problems in the bud. What problems? |
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Post by Voldar on Aug 11, 2021 19:34:45 GMT -5
Okay, here's an idea: Sleep has an area of effect that centers on the caster, and rather than affecting the lowest hit dice it affects the closest first, caster included. Unless you are playing a kamikaze wizard then the utility of Sleep as an instant win are curtailed significantly. That's cute, but I would never do that to my wizards. |
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Post by hengest on Aug 11, 2021 19:37:26 GMT -5
Okay, here's an idea: Sleep has an area of effect that centers on the caster, and rather than affecting the lowest hit dice it affects the closest first, caster included. Variant: area of effect centered on caster. No save against sleep (unless you are a non-sleeping type). Roll 1d6 every round to wake up, wake on a 1 or 2. |
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Post by Voldar on Aug 11, 2021 19:40:25 GMT -5
What are some thoughts and home brew about sleep? I banned it and nobody played mages. Was there a connection or was it my low level of play> I never liked sleep, overpowered. One of the good things about later ed.s is the nerfing of sleep. That's what I should have done instead of out right banning it. I get all the arguments about how weak mages are at low levels. With sleep, disagree big time. Compare it to many 3rd level spells, you'd rather have sleep , right? So what are your thoughts? What have you done? What do you plan on the future? I want to listen. Low level wizards are not weak as long as they have sleep. I can see how no one would take a wizards if you nerfed the class. If anything I would make sleep tougher. 2-12 1st levels or 1-6 1st levels and 1-4 2nd levels or 1-8 2nd levels with no 1st levels present or 1-6 3rd levels if no lower levels present or 1-2 4th levels with no lower levels present or 1 5th level with no lower levels present. Then let the spell grow in power as the wizard grows in power. |
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Post by Voldar on Aug 11, 2021 19:42:19 GMT -5
Okay, here's an idea: Sleep has an area of effect that centers on the caster, and rather than affecting the lowest hit dice it affects the closest first, caster included. Variant: area of effect centered on caster. No save against sleep (unless you are a non-sleeping type). Roll 1d6 every round to wake up, wake on a 1 or 2. I would allow the caster to determine who to target within a distance of 12" within a 30 ft radius. No save and out for 8 hours unless deliberately woken. |
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Post by hengest on Aug 11, 2021 19:43:55 GMT -5
What are some thoughts and home brew about sleep? I banned it and nobody played mages. Was there a connection or was it my low level of play> I never liked sleep, overpowered. One of the good things about later ed.s is the nerfing of sleep. That's what I should have done instead of out right banning it. I get all the arguments about how weak mages are at low levels. With sleep, disagree big time. Compare it to many 3rd level spells, you'd rather have sleep , right? So what are your thoughts? What have you done? What do you plan on the future? I want to listen. Low level wizards are not weak as long as they have sleep. I can see how no one would take a wizards if you nerfed the class. If anything I would make sleep tougher. 2-12 1st levels or 1-6 1st levels and 1-4 2nd levels or 1-8 2nd levels with no 1st levels present or 1-6 3rd levels if no lower levels present or 1-2 4th levels with no lower levels present or 1 5th level with no lower levels present. Then let the spell grow in power as the wizard grows in power. Ha, nice! Exalt! |
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Post by Voldar on Aug 11, 2021 19:44:39 GMT -5
Low level wizards are not weak as long as they have sleep. I can see how no one would take a wizards if you nerfed the class. If anything I would make sleep tougher. 2-12 1st levels or 1-6 1st levels and 1-4 2nd levels or 1-8 2nd levels with no 1st levels present or 1-6 3rd levels if no lower levels present or 1-2 4th levels with no lower levels present or 1 5th level with no lower levels present. Then let the spell grow in power as the wizard grows in power. Ha, nice! Exalt! Thanks man! |
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Post by hengest on Aug 11, 2021 19:52:15 GMT -5
Variant: area of effect centered on caster. No save against sleep (unless you are a non-sleeping type). Roll 1d6 every round to wake up, wake on a 1 or 2. I would allow the caster to determine who to target within a distance of 12" within a 30 ft radius. No save and out for 8 hours unless deliberately woken. Even better, now that's power! My version was powerful with risk and probably the situation would not be fun after the first time or you (you wake up first and tie them up, or they wake up and kill you). Targeted like this is cool. |
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Post by restless on Aug 11, 2021 20:00:26 GMT -5
I just grant a save versus Sleep. Seems to nip the problems in the bud. What problems? I guess I've played with some whiny players, because they like the instant win of Sleep against enemies, but when the enemy spellcaster has Sleep they don't find it very entertaining! When I was a teen I had a player get up, walk out on the game after being slept, threw his PHB and papers in the air in the yard and didn't come back (but he had the mindset that he was always supposed to win, he was the heerooooooo). I guess player relations could be considered a sort of problem. |
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Post by restless on Aug 11, 2021 20:08:43 GMT -5
I can see how no one would take a wizards if you nerfed the class. I can't see changing that one spell nerfing the entire class, but it does make the first couple levels more difficult, but the 15-minute adventuring day is real and channeling a former manager of mine, "that's a them problem." To counter that, you could easily put in a Holmesian scroll rule (which I do) so they have a variety of additional spells to choose from (although it'll cost them some scratch), and throwing Greek fire pots or letting magic users employ a light crossbow makes up for some of that at very low levels. |
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Post by hengest on Aug 11, 2021 20:13:18 GMT -5
I am really enjoying this discussion and the various perspectives in play here.
Possible tangent: PC MU who *doesn't adventure* in the scary places often but acts as a "coach," working with magic items, town encounters, representing the PCs while they are off in the thick of things. A quasi-NPC, maybe played by a player who can't make it often, or who has to text, email, or phone in to the ref between sessions.
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Post by restless on Aug 11, 2021 20:21:58 GMT -5
I am really enjoying this discussion and the various perspectives in play here. Possible tangent: PC MU who *doesn't adventure* in the scary places often but acts as a "coach," working with magic items, town encounters, representing the PCs while they are off in the thick of things. A quasi-NPC, maybe played by a player who can't make it often, or who has to text, email, or phone in to the ref between sessions. Like a Mama June to a party of Honey Boo Boos! Wait, no, that's not it... |
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Post by hengest on Aug 11, 2021 20:26:49 GMT -5
restless Like an air traffic controller who sometimes has to actually fly the plane and is both professional and comically inept?
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Aug 11, 2021 20:43:57 GMT -5
I guess I've played with some whiny players, because they like the instant win of Sleep against enemies, but when the enemy spellcaster has Sleep they don't find it very entertaining! When I was a teen I had a player get up, walk out on the game after being slept, threw his PHB and papers in the air in the yard and didn't come back (but he had the mindset that he was always supposed to win, he was the heerooooooo). I guess player relations could be considered a sort of problem. Whiny players are bad for everyone and you are better off without them. To me that is not a problem, that is just a necessary weed out taking place. |
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