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Post by hengest on Jul 26, 2021 21:02:38 GMT -5
I'm not sure how much they had to deal with this in the wargaming days. I find myself excessively concerned with tone, always wondering how to avoid a realm-spoilimg tone, or even better, how to hit just the right notes for maximum intrigue without being too leading.
To me some of my materials feel like nothing but experiments in tone, like a kind of giant practice session to get the Charley Horse in a game of Operation. Just a little bit off and the buzzer sounds.
Do you enjoy a particular tone? Do you even think about this, or figure that the group does most of the tone-determining on the fly at the table? Did you ever feel like a game was spoiled or made by the ref's tonal choices?
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jul 26, 2021 21:40:35 GMT -5
I'm not sure how much they had to deal with this in the wargaming days. I find myself excessively concerned with tone, always wondering how to avoid a realm-spoilimg tone, or even better, how to hit just the right notes for maximum intrigue without being too leading. To me some of my materials feel like nothing but experiments in tone, like a kind of giant practice session to get the Charley Horse in a game of Operation. Just a little bit off and the buzzer sounds. Do you enjoy a particular tone? Do you even think about this, or figure that the group does most of the tone-determining on the fly at the table? Did you ever feel like a game was spoiled or made by the ref's tonal choices? I never really think about it much, I just do what I do and let the game go where it will. |
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Post by mao on Jul 27, 2021 3:11:35 GMT -5
I'm not sure how much they had to deal with this in the wargaming days. I find myself excessively concerned with tone, always wondering how to avoid a realm-spoilimg tone, or even better, how to hit just the right notes for maximum intrigue without being too leading. To me some of my materials feel like nothing but experiments in tone, like a kind of giant practice session to get the Charley Horse in a game of Operation. Just a little bit off and the buzzer sounds. Do you enjoy a particular tone? Do you even think about this, or figure that the group does most of the tone-determining on the fly at the table? Did you ever feel like a game was spoiled or made by the ref's tonal choices? To a degree you are right about your self reflection HOWEVER, you have enuf stuff to run but your Twilight Zone-like material is amazing. You(and I) sell yourself short. You are an amazing talent and are at least my equal(that is hard to admit). I take a lot of track of guests online, you(and TPD) are both by far out drawing me by far. Now as to your topic. I don't think I ever realized ,till TPD used the word, how gonzo I am. Mysantia was originally a killer, gritty scrapping by and starving game. I changed it to epic, from there it wondered into gonzo. My original source material was 75% Thieves World anthology and 255% Den segment of the Heavy Metal movie. But now Gonzo is my first middle and last name. I am going to try and switch back to gritty for my new dungeon. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jul 27, 2021 8:58:40 GMT -5
I'm not sure how much they had to deal with this in the wargaming days. I find myself excessively concerned with tone, always wondering how to avoid a realm-spoilimg tone, or even better, how to hit just the right notes for maximum intrigue without being too leading. To me some of my materials feel like nothing but experiments in tone, like a kind of giant practice session to get the Charley Horse in a game of Operation. Just a little bit off and the buzzer sounds. Do you enjoy a particular tone? Do you even think about this, or figure that the group does most of the tone-determining on the fly at the table? Did you ever feel like a game was spoiled or made by the ref's tonal choices? To a degree you are right about your self reflection HOWEVER, you have enuf stuff to run but your Twilight Zone-like material is amazing. You(and I) sell yourself short. You are an amazing talent and are at least my equal(that is hard to admit). I take a lot of track of guests online, you(and TPD) are both by far out drawing me by far. Now as to your topic. I don't think I ever realized ,till TPD used the word, how gonzo I am. Mysantia was originally a killer, gritty scrapping by and starving game. I changed it to epic, from there it wondered into gonzo. My original source material was 75% Thieves World anthology and 255% Den segment of the Heavy Metal movie. But now Gonzo is my first middle and last name. I am going to try and switch back to gritty for my new dungeon. I also think you are too hard on yourself, as mao says, your stuff is amazing and I think the tone of what I have seen you post is just fine. Much of it is way better than fine. I think (IMO) ideally tone is a product of the referees setting and how the players interact with it. Tone is only partially preset, because the referee is only part of the equation. The rest is derived from the players and what they do with the setting. As for your last question, I think that can happen, but the only time I have seen is where the ref was deliberately limiting player choice and maxing out every monster the players met so that every encounter without exception was an eyelash from a TPK. In that game, monsters could have plate armor, but the PCs where not allowed to have plate armor and a dozen other things designed to nerf the PCs compared to the monsters. I do not see anything like that in anything you have written. |
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Post by hengest on Jul 27, 2021 10:05:33 GMT -5
Just for the record, The Perilous Dreamer and mao, I was not in a panic about my material, just reflecting. My whole focus has been tone and I hope that some of those materials could be slotted into a game but I am not worried about it. Obviously my stuff here is not a campaign, just materials to be used or not, no one is limited by my (so far) focus on a certain tone. Some non-D&D materials I have seen have seemed very heavy on this tone or that. Like BECMI seems to have a pretty cheerful tone and the White Wolf stuff in the 90s has its particular 90s tone of "darkness." I don't have a problem with that, I suppose if you're going to sell a product it's not insane to have it feel like it's of one piece. |
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Post by hengest on Jul 27, 2021 10:23:02 GMT -5
One more comment here -- as you said, The Perilous Dreamer, there's a huge contribution by the players, too. Which is another reason to do outreach. I remember even as recently as the 90s, you could have a programmer, a martial artist, a teenager, a stay-at-home mom, and someone else at the table. Those are all different everyday perspectives and the mix is part of what makes it engaging to be at the table, I think. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jul 27, 2021 10:45:08 GMT -5
One more comment here -- as you said, The Perilous Dreamer , there's a huge contribution by the players, too. Which is another reason to do outreach. I remember even as recently as the 90s, you could have a programmer, a martial artist, a teenager, a stay-at-home mom, and someone else at the table. Those are all different everyday perspectives and the mix is part of what makes it engaging to be at the table, I think. Yeah, when I started it was a mix. I think I posted about this before and I may get the major mixed up, it has been over 40 years ago. But we had a 50/50 male/female mix and for majors we had English, French, Latin, Chemistry, Physics, various Engineering, Biology, Economics, and others. All within a 5 year age span. When I started a game up back in 2009, I had male and female, and an age range from 8 to older than me at the time so late 50s. From school girl to military vet and everything in between. So each mix is unique and imparts a different flavor/tone to the game. |
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Post by mao on Jul 27, 2021 11:29:38 GMT -5
One more comment here -- as you said, The Perilous Dreamer , there's a huge contribution by the players, too. Which is another reason to do outreach. I remember even as recently as the 90s, you could have a programmer, a martial artist, a teenager, a stay-at-home mom, and someone else at the table. Those are all different everyday perspectives and the mix is part of what makes it engaging to be at the table, I think. Yeah, when I started it was a mix. I think I posted about this before and I may get the major mixed up, it has been over 40 years ago. But we had a 50/50 male/female mix and for majors we had English, French, Latin, Chemistry, Physics, various Engineering, Biology, Economics, and others. All within a 5 year age span. When I started a game up back in 2009, I had male and female, and an age range from 8 to older than me at the time so late 50s. From school girl to military vet and everything in between. So each mix is unique and imparts a different flavor/tone to the game. At one point I had 4 players and all around 60 |
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Post by Morose on Aug 6, 2021 2:23:24 GMT -5
I like dark, weird, grim, grey, gritty and tragic.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Aug 15, 2021 8:33:44 GMT -5
I like dark, weird, grim, grey, gritty and tragic. YES! Serve it up, please. |
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Aug 15, 2021 8:56:42 GMT -5
I do have an experience where tone definitely influenced the game. My cousin was gathering a group for a Numenera campaign. The pitch I was given was basically "D&D in a post-apocalyptic world" so it sounded somewhat like Thundarr the Barbarian. After he got around 6 - 8 interested players I get an email asking if I had any ideas for a character. Having no experience with the Numenera system I asked if there was a fighter or paladin type equivalent. He said there was but I didn't have to do anything like that. One player was going to do a mutated Broccoli with a pet. I'm not opposed to humor or gonzo in my games - I'm a big fan of Paranoia and Gamma World - but I had to bow out gracefully at this point. I hope I don't come across as a killjoy or anything but it just wasn't my cup of tea. I've heard some people say "any gaming is better than no gaming" and I'm pretty sure that's not true.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Aug 15, 2021 12:12:19 GMT -5
I do have an experience where tone definitely influenced the game. My cousin was gathering a group for a Numenera campaign. The pitch I was given was basically "D&D in a post-apocalyptic world" so it sounded somewhat like Thundarr the Barbarian. After he got around 6 - 8 interested players I get an email asking if I had any ideas for a character. Having no experience with the Numenera system I asked if there was a fighter or paladin type equivalent. He said there was but I didn't have to do anything like that. One player was going to do a mutated Broccoli with a pet. I'm not opposed to humor or gonzo in my games - I'm a big fan of Paranoia and Gamma World - but I had to bow out gracefully at this point. I hope I don't come across as a killjoy or anything but it just wasn't my cup of tea. I've heard some people say "any gaming is better than no gaming" and I'm pretty sure that's not true. Yeah, that is definitely not true. Never played Paranoia and played one game of Gamma World bitd, my group might have played it a lot, if it used more OD&D style mechanics. I like humor and gonzo too, the problem with some things is the player that does them. |
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Post by Morose on Aug 15, 2021 22:36:51 GMT -5
I do have an experience where tone definitely influenced the game. My cousin was gathering a group for a Numenera campaign. The pitch I was given was basically "D&D in a post-apocalyptic world" so it sounded somewhat like Thundarr the Barbarian. After he got around 6 - 8 interested players I get an email asking if I had any ideas for a character. Having no experience with the Numenera system I asked if there was a fighter or paladin type equivalent. He said there was but I didn't have to do anything like that. One player was going to do a mutated Broccoli with a pet. I'm not opposed to humor or gonzo in my games - I'm a big fan of Paranoia and Gamma World - but I had to bow out gracefully at this point. I hope I don't come across as a killjoy or anything but it just wasn't my cup of tea. I've heard some people say "any gaming is better than no gaming" and I'm pretty sure that's not true. If presented with mutated Broccoli with a pet, my question would be, "I thought this was a (insert name) game, but this sounds more like The Three Stooges meets George of the Jungle." |
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Post by hengest on Aug 15, 2021 22:42:05 GMT -5
I do have an experience where tone definitely influenced the game. My cousin was gathering a group for a Numenera campaign. The pitch I was given was basically "D&D in a post-apocalyptic world" so it sounded somewhat like Thundarr the Barbarian. After he got around 6 - 8 interested players I get an email asking if I had any ideas for a character. Having no experience with the Numenera system I asked if there was a fighter or paladin type equivalent. He said there was but I didn't have to do anything like that. One player was going to do a mutated Broccoli with a pet. I'm not opposed to humor or gonzo in my games - I'm a big fan of Paranoia and Gamma World - but I had to bow out gracefully at this point. I hope I don't come across as a killjoy or anything but it just wasn't my cup of tea. I've heard some people say "any gaming is better than no gaming" and I'm pretty sure that's not true. If presented with mutated Broccoli with a pet, my question would be, "I thought this was a (insert name) game, but this sounds more like The Three Stooges meets George of the Jungle." Fun is fun but this doesn't sound like my idea of a great time. A one-off, sure, in a world where I get to game all the time, but as a regular campaign, it just doesn't sound that fun to me. I don't need anything even remotely like verisimilitude (it is fantasy, right?), but I like the characters to at least be people since they then feel real. I don't love manipulating an avatar that's just a joke on the whole genre of fantasy (or science fantasy or whatever). |
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Post by Morose on Aug 15, 2021 22:47:38 GMT -5
If presented with mutated Broccoli with a pet, my question would be, "I thought this was a (insert name) game, but this sounds more like The Three Stooges meets George of the Jungle." Fun is fun but this doesn't sound like my idea of a great time. A one-off, sure, in a world where I get to game all the time, but as a regular campaign, it just doesn't sound that fun to me. I don't need anything even remotely like verisimilitude (it is fantasy, right?), but I like the characters to at least be people since they then feel real. I don't love manipulating an avatar that's just a joke on the whole genre of fantasy (or science fantasy or whatever). I would bet that the guy who wants to play mutated Broccoli with a pet fits the worse possible gamer stereotype to the nth degree. |
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Aug 16, 2021 17:27:26 GMT -5
I do have an experience where tone definitely influenced the game. My cousin was gathering a group for a Numenera campaign. The pitch I was given was basically "D&D in a post-apocalyptic world" so it sounded somewhat like Thundarr the Barbarian. After he got around 6 - 8 interested players I get an email asking if I had any ideas for a character. Having no experience with the Numenera system I asked if there was a fighter or paladin type equivalent. He said there was but I didn't have to do anything like that. One player was going to do a mutated Broccoli with a pet. I'm not opposed to humor or gonzo in my games - I'm a big fan of Paranoia and Gamma World - but I had to bow out gracefully at this point. I hope I don't come across as a killjoy or anything but it just wasn't my cup of tea. I've heard some people say "any gaming is better than no gaming" and I'm pretty sure that's not true. If presented with mutated Broccoli with a pet, my question would be, "I thought this was a (insert name) game, but this sounds more like The Three Stooges meets George of the Jungle." Unfortunately, I've had previous experience (out of game) with that person and they are an attention seeker and a straight up munchkin of the highest caliber. They like to try to twist the wording of the rules to get "super-mega-ultra" high bang for the buck out of everything. It's just boring and laborious to be involved in a conversation with them as they explain how they are the "smartest player alive" because they figured out how to get infinite damage or whatever. UGH |
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Aug 16, 2021 17:29:15 GMT -5
If presented with mutated Broccoli with a pet, my question would be, "I thought this was a (insert name) game, but this sounds more like The Three Stooges meets George of the Jungle." Fun is fun but this doesn't sound like my idea of a great time. A one-off, sure, in a world where I get to game all the time, but as a regular campaign, it just doesn't sound that fun to me. I don't need anything even remotely like verisimilitude (it is fantasy, right?), but I like the characters to at least be people since they then feel real. I don't love manipulating an avatar that's just a joke on the whole genre of fantasy (or science fantasy or whatever). Certainly! In a game of TOON or Teenagers From Outer Space I would definitely be down with it. Otherwise, just not my cup of tea. |
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Aug 16, 2021 17:30:19 GMT -5
Fun is fun but this doesn't sound like my idea of a great time. A one-off, sure, in a world where I get to game all the time, but as a regular campaign, it just doesn't sound that fun to me. I don't need anything even remotely like verisimilitude (it is fantasy, right?), but I like the characters to at least be people since they then feel real. I don't love manipulating an avatar that's just a joke on the whole genre of fantasy (or science fantasy or whatever). I would bet that the guy who wants to play mutated Broccoli with a pet fits the worse possible gamer stereotype to the nth degree. Right on! |
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Post by Morose on Sept 6, 2021 12:38:24 GMT -5
If presented with mutated Broccoli with a pet, my question would be, "I thought this was a (insert name) game, but this sounds more like The Three Stooges meets George of the Jungle." Unfortunately, I've had previous experience (out of game) with that person and they are an attention seeker and a straight up munchkin of the highest caliber. They like to try to twist the wording of the rules to get "super-mega-ultra" high bang for the buck out of everything. It's just boring and laborious to be involved in a conversation with them as they explain how they are the "smartest player alive" because they figured out how to get infinite damage or whatever. UGH Would this player draw from a deck of many things? You could make a custom deck with some very interesting options. I would love to give these kinds of players a geas and send them out into the world to complete their own 12 Labors. Make each one a teaching moment. |
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Sept 6, 2021 18:43:48 GMT -5
Unfortunately, I've had previous experience (out of game) with that person and they are an attention seeker and a straight up munchkin of the highest caliber. They like to try to twist the wording of the rules to get "super-mega-ultra" high bang for the buck out of everything. It's just boring and laborious to be involved in a conversation with them as they explain how they are the "smartest player alive" because they figured out how to get infinite damage or whatever. UGH Would this player draw from a deck of many things? You could make a custom deck with some very interesting options. I would love to give these kinds of players a geas and send them out into the world to complete their own 12 Labors. Make each one a teaching moment. I honestly don't know if they would or not. I like your ideas. I would definitely do that but I really don't think we will have to worry about gaming together anytime soon or even at all. Probably for the best. There's the added drama that she is family due to marriage and just won't leave politics out of any thing at all; even fun time activities. It's probably best that I prefer the older games and she plays the newer games so our paths really don't cross at the gaming table. |
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Post by Morose on Sept 6, 2021 20:20:34 GMT -5
Would this player draw from a deck of many things? You could make a custom deck with some very interesting options. I would love to give these kinds of players a geas and send them out into the world to complete their own 12 Labors. Make each one a teaching moment. I honestly don't know if they would or not. I like your ideas. I would definitely do that but I really don't think we will have to worry about gaming together anytime soon or even at all. Probably for the best. There's the added drama that she is family due to marriage and just won't leave politics out of any thing at all; even fun time activities. It's probably best that I prefer the older games and she plays the newer games so our paths really don't cross at the gaming table. Female relative, that must complicate things, especially an in-law |
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Sept 6, 2021 20:30:40 GMT -5
I honestly don't know if they would or not. I like your ideas. I would definitely do that but I really don't think we will have to worry about gaming together anytime soon or even at all. Probably for the best. There's the added drama that she is family due to marriage and just won't leave politics out of any thing at all; even fun time activities. It's probably best that I prefer the older games and she plays the newer games so our paths really don't cross at the gaming table. Female relative, that must complicate things, especially an in-law It does. She goes out of her way to be contrary and obtuse. Someone could write a sit-com or something about it. She goes well beyond the realm of all things normal and decent straight to the strange and utterly ridiculous. |
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Post by Traveroark on Sept 8, 2021 20:54:07 GMT -5
I do not worry about tone, I just let the game go were it will. It sometimes goes very dark and other times it is very light-hearted. It all depends on what the players do in response to the world.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Sept 9, 2021 10:53:18 GMT -5
I do not worry about tone, I just let the game go were it will. It sometimes goes very dark and other times it is very light-hearted. It all depends on what the players do in response to the world. I am more this way, just let the game take us where ever it will, when it is open ended the referee gets to be surprised by what happens along with the players. Open ended improv gives me way better stuff than I could ever plot out ahead of time. But YMMV, each to their own style. Different things work for different people. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Sept 9, 2021 10:54:09 GMT -5
Female relative, that must complicate things, especially an in-law It does. She goes out of her way to be contrary and obtuse. Someone could write a sit-com or something about it. She goes well beyond the realm of all things normal and decent straight to the strange and utterly ridiculous. Seems like every family has at least one. Large families may have several. |
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Sept 9, 2021 11:09:58 GMT -5
It does. She goes out of her way to be contrary and obtuse. Someone could write a sit-com or something about it. She goes well beyond the realm of all things normal and decent straight to the strange and utterly ridiculous. Seems like every family has at least one. Large families may have several. Absolute TRUTH! |
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