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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jun 22, 2021 10:29:06 GMT -5
Copied some stuff from another thread to continue the off-topic part of the conversation. Whether railroady or super-sandbox would depend on how you view time in your world. Does time travel force certain things to avoid paradox or is paradox allowed. Of course the whole thing of going back in time and killing a parent or grandparent. Is there a timeline split where you are in the timeline where that person is alive and you can never return to the timeline where that person is not alive because you are dead there. Or is there only one timeline and you either cannot kill the person at all or you do and immediately cease to exist and the whole timeline is fractured because of the paradox and completely reordered with or without lots of errors and random occurrences or ... I hadn't seriously considered any of this. I was imagining one timeline that "heals" itself going forward. That is, if something in the campaign-past affects the domain-future, the domain-future is simply updated. But of course you could go any kind of crazy with it you wanted. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jun 22, 2021 10:29:55 GMT -5
I hadn't seriously considered any of this. I was imagining one timeline that "heals" itself going forward. That is, if something in the campaign-past affects the domain-future, the domain-future is simply updated. But of course you could go any kind of crazy with it you wanted. I think about those things because I am fascinated with time travel and especially the ability to jump around through time as a natural mutant ability. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jun 22, 2021 10:30:34 GMT -5
I think about those things because I am fascinated with time travel and especially the ability to jump around through time as a natural mutant ability. I also like the idea of time travel although I have just recently thought about it in connection with fantasy settings. One of my big "what if" games in my head in the past few years has been wondering how someone would interact with someone from their own culture just thirty to fifty years off. i.e. someone who is 25 now is dropped into 1974 and has to deal with work, dating, whatever. I won't go into the details on this thread, as it is well off-topic and I have no idea how to adapt these musings to a fantasy setting, but there you go. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jun 22, 2021 10:31:18 GMT -5
I also like the idea of time travel although I have just recently thought about it in connection with fantasy settings. One of my big "what if" games in my head in the past few years has been wondering how someone would interact with someone from their own culture just thirty to fifty years off. i.e. someone who is 25 now is dropped into 1974 and has to deal with work, dating, whatever. I won't go into the details on this thread, as it is well off-topic and I have no idea how to adapt these musings to a fantasy setting, but there you go. I like the whole "what if" concerning time travel, I think of it in terms of personally being able to go back in time and alter somethings, but not others. Also another thought I have had was to go back in time and set something in motion and have it delivered to myself in the current day and/or myself at that time. Simple example, buy 50 copies of OD&D and have one of them sent to my seventeen year old self in January 1974 along with a some information on how to play and also take back somethings from now to my self then. The second part was to have the 49 copies stored and arrange to have them delivered to me now. And to do that with all 6 of the original printings and of some other games too. I frequently wonder off topic. Maybe we could start another thread in the village commons. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jun 22, 2021 10:32:21 GMT -5
And so we will pick it up from here. |
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Post by hengest on Jun 22, 2021 20:18:23 GMT -5
A few more comments.
We have a lot of information about the last hundred years or so at our fingertips. For example, we know that faces change a lot with the generations, even in the same population. A kind of "facial accent" is visible when we view photographs from previous decades. View a movie, or better yet just photographs from the 1920s and the 1970s. A bunch from each decade. Those people don't look like each other and they don't look like people do now. Their facial habits are different.
As I began to say in the posts quoted above, I often wonder about how one would interact with these people, plopped into their environment. Even if you could have local money and some ability to survive, how would you go about dating, making friends, or simply accomplishing basic tasks? Keep in mind that however strange they seem to you, you will seem about that strange to them.
Not only in your facial habits, but your assumptions about how the world works. If you could travel from 2021 to 1971, I think you would find that "average" people, regardless of their politics or specific opinions about this or that, would look, to your eyes, "innocent" about many matters. Imagine having a conversation in 1971 with someone who was / is your age now, regardless of your age. I think I would have a very hard time presenting myself normally at all. First of all, their immediate concerns (about world events and so on) would seem trivial to you, because you would know (roughly) how everything works out. But more than that: it just seems the whole shape of how people think of their place in the world has change dramatically.
So I imagine that there would be tricks to time travel (even pretty "local" travel) that are not often addressed in fiction.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jun 22, 2021 21:01:03 GMT -5
So I imagine that there would be tricks to time travel (even pretty "local" travel) that are not often addressed in fiction. You have a lot there, I will focus on this for now. Since I'm 65 and I turned 15 in 1971 - 50 years ago. I think about just going back in time to the place where I was alive and where I know the people. I think about even if I just went back to talk to myself, how what you bring up here would apply. In this case, I know that I could prove to myself that I am he and that he would totally buy time travel. But really what could I tell myself, that would not change something I don't want changed? But to interact with anyone else from 1971, even people that I knew. Whew! that would be a tall order. Rural small town, not the place to time travel to, be better off to go to a large city. You would need a fashion expert in period clothing to dress you properly to go there and that is just 50 years ago. My language has changed, I would not sound like people there. On the other hand there are a lot of things (that I won't go into here) that would be expected then, that you can't do now. It would take a lot of preparation to go back in time. |
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Post by hengest on Jun 22, 2021 21:50:01 GMT -5
So I imagine that there would be tricks to time travel (even pretty "local" travel) that are not often addressed in fiction. You have a lot there, I will focus on this for now. Since I'm 65 and I turned 15 in 1971 - 50 years ago. I think about just going back in time to the place where I was alive and where I know the people. I think about even if I just went back to talk to myself, how what you bring up here would apply. In this case, I know that I could prove to myself that I am he and that he would totally buy time travel. But really what could I tell myself, that would not change something I don't want changed? But to interact with anyone else from 1971, even people that I knew. Whew! that would be a tall order. Rural small town, not the place to time travel to, be better off to go to a large city. You would need a fashion expert in period clothing to dress you properly to go there and that is just 50 years ago. My language has changed, I would not sound like people there. On the other hand there are a lot of things (that I won't go into here) that would be expected then, that you can't do now. It would take a lot of preparation to go back in time. In my fantasies, I handwave fashion, money, etc and worry only about personal interactions and there is still plenty to worry about. I didn't even touch language, but of course you are right. In some ways it would be "worse" than actually going to another language or culture because you would be "almost" right but off in some ways that no one there could anticipate or have any understanding of. Also, even if we handwave alternations to the timestream and say "you just don't need to worry about that, just live and do what you want," it seems impossible to imagine functioning normally socially. Although I bet some things would seem remarkable to people. Just think the million topics you know a bit about simply from skimming Wikipedia. Imagine how much more trivia and general notions you would know that most people would have to visit a public library to check on at all. Or for example, how your DM skills would seem shocking in the mid-70s, experience that literally no one in the world had at that time. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jun 22, 2021 22:38:24 GMT -5
You have a lot there, I will focus on this for now. In my fantasies, I handwave fashion, money, etc and worry only about personal interactions and there is still plenty to worry about. I didn't even touch language, but of course you are right. In some ways it would be "worse" than actually going to another language or culture because you would be "almost" right but off in some ways that no one there could anticipate or have any understanding of. Also, even if we handwave alternations to the timestream and say "you just don't need to worry about that, just live and do what you want," it seems impossible to imagine functioning normally socially. Although I bet some things would seem remarkable to people. Just think the million topics you know a bit about simply from skimming Wikipedia. Imagine how much more trivia and general notions you would know that most people would have to visit a public library to check on at all. Or for example, how your DM skills would seem shocking in the mid-70s, experience that literally no one in the world had at that time. Think about this, think about how much medical knowledge a well-read person like one of us knows now, that would be contrary to what was known and practiced then. Think of over the years the drugs that were big and then pulled from the market for problems years later. Now multiply that by a factor of 100 at least for everything. Yes, DM skills. I thought about taking everything published right now back in time to 1968 and publishing D&D. And introducing my 12 year old self to it, have to work on how that would happen. |
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Post by hengest on Jun 23, 2021 18:41:46 GMT -5
Think about this, think about how much medical knowledge a well-read person like one of us knows now, that would be contrary to what was known and practiced then. Think of over the years the drugs that were big and then pulled from the market for problems years later. Now multiply that by a factor of 100 at least for everything. Yes, DM skills. I thought about taking everything published right now back in time to 1968 and publishing D&D. And introducing my 12 year old self to it, have to work on how that would happen.What I bolded sounds like a piece of cool fiction waiting to happen. I hadn't even thought about medical knowledge, but again, you are right. What is strange is that (while I'm sure we also contain incorrect knowledge) we have all this knowledge and it doesn't seem very useful now. It seems like everything we know is not a skill that get you employment and also that no one cares about. It reminds me of an old comic book story I read, somewhere in the Marvel universe, I think, where a "panacea" was gotten from some future utopia to cure all disease, brought back to the present, given to the patient, and it turned out to be nothing but some low doses of vitamins or something. In the future everyone was already so balanced and healthy that that was enough to cure any little malady, and their panacea was literally useless to a sick person from the 20th century. Surely this has some connection to the pace of technological change in the last 40-50 years and especially in the availability of information in the past 25. I often wonder if this pace of change is a cause for the sense many have that our culture is rapidly losing its ability to sustain itself. The techniques for survival and cultural cohesion that worked for people who had children in 1970 or 1980 or especially 1990 are useless to their children who are having to do everything from scratch. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jun 23, 2021 18:46:41 GMT -5
Think about this, think about how much medical knowledge a well-read person like one of us knows now, that would be contrary to what was known and practiced then. Think of over the years the drugs that were big and then pulled from the market for problems years later. Now multiply that by a factor of 100 at least for everything. Yes, DM skills. I thought about taking everything published right now back in time to 1968 and publishing D&D. And introducing my 12 year old self to it, have to work on how that would happen.What I bolded sounds like a piece of cool fiction waiting to happen. I hadn't even thought about medical knowledge, but again, you are right. What is strange is that (while I'm sure we also contain incorrect knowledge) we have all this knowledge and it doesn't seem very useful now. It seems like everything we know is not a skill that get you employment and also that no one cares about. It reminds me of an old comic book story I read, somewhere in the Marvel universe, I think, where a "panacea" was gotten from some future utopia to cure all disease, brought back to the present, given to the patient, and it turned out to be nothing but some low doses of vitamins or something. In the future everyone was already so balanced and healthy that that was enough to cure any little malady, and their panacea was literally useless to a sick person from the 20th century. Surely this has some connection to the pace of technological change in the last 40-50 years and especially in the availability of information in the past 25. I often wonder if this pace of change is a cause for the sense many have that our culture is rapidly losing its ability to sustain itself. The techniques for survival and cultural cohesion that worked for people who had children in 1970 or 1980 or especially 1990 are useless to their children who are having to do everything from scratch. I think the cause is that as a society and as a world we are abandoning the things that work and replacing them with things that are historically proven not to work. The world is a lemming diving off a cliff into the ocean. (yeah I know lemming don't really commit self harm in that manner). I think you are making a lot of good points and these are books that I would like to read. |
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Post by hengest on Jun 23, 2021 18:55:56 GMT -5
The Perilous Dreamer I will tag rather than quote you here since I think no one else will jump in before I post. All I will add right now is that I suppose the initial "time travel fantasy" I mentioned (not to accomplish anything, but simply to survive in a basically familiar time) was probably triggered by some sense of what you said above. Increasing distance from things that work and increasing desperation in putting band-aids on what doesn't work, and then more band-aids on the wounds cause by the first band-aids. Always running forward in such a panicked rush that nothing but the most immediate emergency can ever be dealt with. So I suppose the fantasy was a dream of going to a better time (that would still be familiar-ish) and also a recognition of the problems of our time, and feeling like I can understand them a bit better by thinking about a different context around them. I remember the "Choose Your Own Adventure" books. They started in the late 70s, so probably you were not in the target audience by then. Now, I liked those books but I don't think they were the greatest possible cultural phenomenon ever. But the very core conceit -- that this is a book and you choose a path through the fiction -- just seems so impossibly dated now. I can't imagine an eight-year-old today enjoying one of those. Maybe I'm wrong.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jun 23, 2021 18:59:45 GMT -5
The Perilous Dreamer I will tag rather than quote you here since I think no one else will jump in before I post. All I will add right now is that I suppose the initial "time travel fantasy" I mentioned (not to accomplish anything, but simply to survive in a basically familiar time) was probably triggered by some sense of what you said above. Increasing distance from things that work and increasing desperation in putting band-aids on what doesn't work, and then more band-aids on the wounds cause by the first band-aids. Always running forward in such a panicked rush that nothing but the most immediate emergency can ever be dealt with. So I suppose the fantasy was a dream of going to a better time (that would still be familiar-ish) and also a recognition of the problems of our time, and feeling like I can understand them a bit better by thinking about a different context around them. I remember the "Choose Your Own Adventure" books. They started in the late 70s, so probably you were not in the target audience by then. Now, I liked those books but I don't think they were the greatest possible cultural phenomenon ever. But the very core conceit -- that this is a book and you choose a path through the fiction -- just seems so impossibly dated now. I can't imagine an eight-year-old today enjoying one of those. Maybe I'm wrong. I never saw those, but they always seemed odd to me even then when I heard of them. I know that when I was a kid in the 60s the thing you wanted to do was make your own story, write your own books, climb your own mountains. That has been lost I think. |
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Post by hengest on Jun 23, 2021 19:04:15 GMT -5
The Perilous Dreamer I will tag rather than quote you here since I think no one else will jump in before I post. All I will add right now is that I suppose the initial "time travel fantasy" I mentioned (not to accomplish anything, but simply to survive in a basically familiar time) was probably triggered by some sense of what you said above. Increasing distance from things that work and increasing desperation in putting band-aids on what doesn't work, and then more band-aids on the wounds cause by the first band-aids. Always running forward in such a panicked rush that nothing but the most immediate emergency can ever be dealt with. So I suppose the fantasy was a dream of going to a better time (that would still be familiar-ish) and also a recognition of the problems of our time, and feeling like I can understand them a bit better by thinking about a different context around them. I remember the "Choose Your Own Adventure" books. They started in the late 70s, so probably you were not in the target audience by then. Now, I liked those books but I don't think they were the greatest possible cultural phenomenon ever. But the very core conceit -- that this is a book and you choose a path through the fiction -- just seems so impossibly dated now. I can't imagine an eight-year-old today enjoying one of those. Maybe I'm wrong. I never saw those, but they always seemed odd to me even then when I heard of them. I know that when I was a kid in the 60s the thing you wanted to do was make your own story, write your own books, climb your own mountains. That has been lost I think. Maybe that's another generational shift a click further back. Like MIY > DIY > module > BtB. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jun 23, 2021 19:20:59 GMT -5
I never saw those, but they always seemed odd to me even then when I heard of them. I know that when I was a kid in the 60s the thing you wanted to do was make your own story, write your own books, climb your own mountains. That has been lost I think. Maybe that's another generational shift a click further back. Like MIY > DIY > module > BtB. I think there have been even more generational shifts than that even. Maybe even a second or third layer of shifts too! |
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Post by hengest on Jun 23, 2021 19:25:28 GMT -5
Maybe that's another generational shift a click further back. Like MIY > DIY > module > BtB. I think there have been even more generational shifts than that even. Maybe even a second or third layer of shifts too! Surely, and the shifts themselves are not new or surprising. But the speed with which they are occurring and their depth and meaning are what worry me. |
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Post by hengest on Jun 23, 2021 19:55:21 GMT -5
So to bring things back a bit to time travel and to RPGs, I suppose the take-away from this discussion for me is that 1) there might be a way to mechanize or at least conceptualize this discussion for use in-game (a mechanic that explains something about the world, but probably used at a much greater depth of time) 2) there can be generational differences, but OD&D could act as a "seed" to bring back some of what has been lost from popular culture (I am sure this is The Perilous Dreamer 's observation but am restating it here) |
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Whether railroady or super-sandbox would depend on how you view time in your world. Does time travel force certain things to avoid paradox or is paradox allowed. Of course the whole thing of going back in time and killing a parent or grandparent. Is there a timeline split where you are in the timeline where that person is alive and you can never return to the timeline where that person is not alive because you are dead there. Or is there only one timeline and you either cannot kill the person at all or you do and immediately cease to exist and the whole timeline is fractured because of the paradox and completely reordered with or without lots of errors and random occurrences or ...I hadn't seriously considered any of this. I was imagining one timeline that "heals" itself going forward. That is, if something in the campaign-past affects the domain-future, the domain-future is simply updated. But of course you could go any kind of crazy with it you wanted.
