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Post by captaincrumbcake on Oct 19, 2015 12:36:44 GMT -5
Okay, this is (1) for everyone that like low-magic campaigns; and (2) really illustrates how easily things can get out of hand.
I watched The Hobbit: The Battle of Five Armies, last night. I actually thought it was pretty good. It had problems but, meh. All of PJ's trilogy stuff does.
But to the point. I was very taken aback by the mass combat sequences; watching them made me also pause and reflect back upon The LotR, and those scenes as well. And I thought, not one of the tens of thousands of troops, squad leaders, sub-chiefs, or leaders had a magic weapon*...not even a measely +1 shield! Yet not having such things did not diminish the excitement of the sequences or the story/ies that unfolded.
Surely Sauraman, Gandalf, or Sauron could have contributed "for the cause" and outfitted their side/s with more powerful gear in order to sway the story and conclusion to their side. But they didn't. Everything produced at Isengard was normal crap for the troops. Everything the rangers used, was normal*. Only Bilbo/Frodo and gandalf had "magic swords"...and those they found. *Aragorns was reforged by the elves. Bilbo/Frodo had mithrel shirt, but that was made by the dwarves; no one I recall had magic armor.
For the low and high magic communities the above is offered simply to veryify/illustrate that magic doesn't have to be the foundation of one's D&D game; it can be, but it doesn't have to.
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Post by finarvyn on Oct 20, 2015 5:10:05 GMT -5
In the original campaigns of Dave and Gary, I think that magic item creation had a creation cost but also a real-time cost. In other words if a magic user needed to spend 4 months making a certain item, the player didn't have use of that character for 4 months of real time. That would certainly make players think twice before making items.  |
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Post by Admin Pete on Oct 20, 2015 7:48:12 GMT -5
Wow, that would make it hard to justify the time to make anything. In one game I had I made them take months in game to make stuff, so instead of the rest of the players going off on an adventure, they all wanted to just sit around until the magic users were done. So I stirred things up a bit.  |
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Post by hedgehobbit on Oct 21, 2015 19:37:39 GMT -5
In the original campaigns of Dave and Gary, I think that magic item creation had a creation cost but also a real-time cost. In other words if a magic user needed to spend 4 months making a certain item, the player didn't have use of that character for 4 months of real time. Not many campaigns are run today where this would be feasible. In a typical party-based campaign, it's trivial for the party to just say, "We wait four months" and the cost of making the magic item becomes just an accounting annoyance. Even with the campaigns run ala Blackmoor/Greyhawk, the player can run another character for those four months which doesn't seem vary fair considering many of the items the wizard is making are for other PCs. So the fighter gets to play those four months and has the magic sword at the end. I like how magic items work in Shadow of Mordor. Here an item gains power by being used, a reflection of the legend created by the weapon and it's wielder. Having weapons gain levels by being used would be a great change. Killing stuff would get it XP and if the wielder dies the sword would even lose levels, possibly becoming cursed as in "the last five men who wielded this sword died it battle. It's an accursed blade!" As the weapon levels up it gains new powers along the lines of the magic-user class but instead of spells you get various leveled powers. Possibly with the power list themed according to the backstory of the weapon (elven swords have a different list of powers than orcish or dwarven swords) or how the sword has been used (if you use the sword to kill lots of orcs, it gains bonus damage against orcs). This could potentially solve some of the issues of magic weapons ... -Since a wizard could only make a "Level 1" sword, there's less incentive for him to waste time and money doing so. -Because a weapon only levels up when being used, a backpack full of magic weapons are simply being wasted. Better hand those out. -It avoids the problem that once a +2 weapon is found, all +1 weapons are useless. That being said, I don't really agree with the original post. A lack of flashy magic doesn't automatically mean a lack of magic. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Oct 21, 2015 21:55:40 GMT -5
I like how magic items work in Shadow of Mordor. Here an item gains power by being used, a reflection of the legend created by the weapon and it's wielder. Having weapons gain levels by being used would be a great change. This is how I am currently running things. |
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Post by Von on Oct 21, 2015 23:47:20 GMT -5
I like how magic items work in Shadow of Mordor. Here an item gains power by being used, a reflection of the legend created by the weapon and it's wielder. Having weapons gain levels by being used would be a great change. Killing stuff would get it XP and if the wielder dies the sword would even lose levels, possibly becoming cursed as in "the last five men who wielded this sword died it battle. It's an accursed blade!" As the weapon levels up it gains new powers along the lines of the magic-user class but instead of spells you get various leveled powers. Possibly with the power list themed according to the backstory of the weapon (elven swords have a different list of powers than orcish or dwarven swords) or how the sword has been used (if you use the sword to kill lots of orcs, it gains bonus damage against orcs). This is good. I am in the habit of using Tarot cards to design magic items on the fly and it tends to yield results like these. I abhor the generic +1 short sword of mundanity that can be cranked out by any old Magic-User who has nothing better to do with their XP. A magic item should feel, well, magical: the item creation rules as they stand yield something that's more like master craftsmanship. |
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Post by hengest on Oct 22, 2015 19:27:52 GMT -5
This Tarot business is more than cool.
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Post by mao on Oct 10, 2018 9:00:39 GMT -5
bump
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Post by mao on Oct 10, 2018 10:10:01 GMT -5
I never let mages make anything but I will let them do scrolls
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Post by ripx187 on Oct 11, 2018 17:57:47 GMT -5
Nice find mao! I don't think that any of my players have ever made anything either. Once the players have a stock magic sword of doom a lot of the fun would be over for us as we really dig monster hunts. Discover the monster, figure out the monsters weakness, that is fun stuff! I personally think that all magic swords should have histories or fold into the lore of the setting in some way. I like that in Middle Earth orcs instantly recognized some of the weapons by name and were terrified. It says something about the nature of the orc and gives the reader a mystery, how would they know? We aren't ever told by Tolkien so we must come up with our own conclusions and theories. Magic Swords are stronger than normal weapons, striking a magical monster can break normal weapons. Striking a particularly powerful monster may even shatter a magical weapon and this has severe consequences! A magic sword can harm a monster, but not necessarily slay it. The only way to slay some monsters is through quests, often a weapon must be forged or an ancient spell must be sought specifically for that creature. There was a time where D&D could get away with magic weapons as written, but I feel that with the domination of video games D&D must adapt to a different level. The game's strength lies with interaction and advanced problem solving, not in giving away free candy but getting a group of players to genuinely feel that they are earning each victory and learning from failure. |
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Post by mao on Oct 13, 2018 15:01:45 GMT -5
3.x and pathfinder are built around magic items being fairly plentiful, as the monsters are balanced against this. I love making up magic items that can only be used once a day. At one point I put in a ton of super weak Ioun stones. Thus to each his own.
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Post by hedgehobbit on Nov 8, 2018 9:41:01 GMT -5
When someone bumps a three year old thread I posted in ...  |
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Post by hedgehobbit on Nov 8, 2018 9:58:17 GMT -5
I never let mages make anything but I will let them do scrolls My philosophy has always been that anything an NPC or legendary hero can do, the players should be able to do. IF the PC dedicates their life to such a task. The players generally don't but it's hugely important they they know that they CAN. This is an important part of immersion and why I detested all those Giants of the Earth articles that constantly broke the rules in order to represent fictional character that the players could never aspire to match. |
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Post by mao on Nov 8, 2018 10:41:51 GMT -5
I never let mages make anything but I will let them do scrolls My philosophy has always been that anything an NPC or legendary hero can do, the players should be able to do. IF the PC dedicates their life to such a task. The players generally don't but it's hugely important they they know that they CAN. This is an important part of immersion and why I detested all those Giants of the Earth articles that constantly broke the rules in order to represent fictional character. Ok you struck one of my nerves,the fact that all PCs are Heros. Might make me reconsider my attitude. I'll think about it. |
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Post by hedgehobbit on Nov 9, 2018 13:33:36 GMT -5
There was a time where D&D could get away with magic weapons as written, but I feel that with the domination of video games D&D must adapt to a different level. The game's strength lies with interaction and advanced problem solving, not in giving away free candy but getting a group of players to genuinely feel that they are earning each victory and learning from failure. I often wonder how D&D, or RPGs in general, would be different today if, instead of just giving us a list of monsters, a list of spells, and a list of magical treasure, that D&D had included rules for the players to create their own monsters, spells, and treasures, to suit their own game. As it is, over 40 years later, we are still talking about magic missiles, orcs, and +1 swords. |
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Nov 9, 2018 14:07:26 GMT -5
I think this "What If?" scenario would be interesting to explore. Take Lamentations of the Flame Princess, it doesn't give you monsters nor magical items and expects GMs to create their own for their campaigns largely being unique in nature. I hit a wall with my setting revisions (yet again)and I think it has come down to me trying to incorporate too much of what has become traditional D&D-isms. I am trying to force those tropes onto a setting that was created to defy them initially.
I've gotten to the point that Elves and other fey oriented demi-humans use nature based Fey magic and thus I'll need to create new spell lists for them & Druids. I also want to get back to Vancian magic for magic-users and to a degree clerics if I even include them or paladins. I want magic to be rare, yet still have magical technology - airships, constructs and such. Be they the remnants of lost magic of the past or one of the few magical lores still practiced but are extremely time consuming and expensive to create unless you have great wealth or the backing of an organization.
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Post by Admin Pete on Nov 11, 2018 21:40:30 GMT -5
There was a time where D&D could get away with magic weapons as written, but I feel that with the domination of video games D&D must adapt to a different level. The game's strength lies with interaction and advanced problem solving, not in giving away free candy but getting a group of players to genuinely feel that they are earning each victory and learning from failure. I often wonder how D&D, or RPGs in general, would be different today if, instead of just giving us a list of monsters, a list of spells, and a list of magical treasure, that D&D had included rules for the players to create their own monsters, spells, and treasures, to suit their own game. As it is, over 40 years later, we are still talking about magic missiles, orcs, and +1 swords. My impression is that a lot of people on here have created their own monsters, spells and treasures and that doing so was part of the rules. |
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Post by ripx187 on Nov 13, 2018 17:37:18 GMT -5
There was a time where D&D could get away with magic weapons as written, but I feel that with the domination of video games D&D must adapt to a different level. The game's strength lies with interaction and advanced problem solving, not in giving away free candy but getting a group of players to genuinely feel that they are earning each victory and learning from failure. I often wonder how D&D, or RPGs in general, would be different today if, instead of just giving us a list of monsters, a list of spells, and a list of magical treasure, that D&D had included rules for the players to create their own monsters, spells, and treasures, to suit their own game. As it is, over 40 years later, we are still talking about magic missiles, orcs, and +1 swords. What a great quote, Hedgehobbit! It sums up much of my feelings on the subject. I typically make up my own monsters, and like to do it with treasure but it is so easy to be lazy. Creating spells . . . this is hard, or maybe it isn't. It is where I kinda want to go but I feel that I need to get more experience with them before committing to such a drastic change. I think that, in a sense, what is attractive to us folks who weren't there in the beginning, is that the fans did just this. They came up with their own stuff, sent it in to TSR or a fan mag and other people either used it or rejected it. It made finding origins and the creators difficult but this idea is still attractive. 2nd Edition AD&D filled up 4 Leatherbound books with just spells that had been created up to that point, that is frustrating. |
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Post by Warrior Twin Two on Nov 16, 2018 17:48:53 GMT -5
I like magic items and I am fine with PCs making them if they want to sit of play with that character for suitable periods of time.
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Post by mao on Nov 19, 2018 12:11:11 GMT -5
Should I ever actually run again, I think what I will do is create a small sub set of items that a wiz can make(at least wands, weapons and holy symbols) so I can have in depth rules for a small set rather than loose rules for every thing which(heaven forbid) would have to be balanced
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