Turn Undead Reconsidered

[captaincrumbcake]

There is a big discussion on the Turning of undead over at DF in the Classic section. Several questions are brought up and dissected. The go to source appears to be the Mentzer version, as it is more descriptive in how the mechanic actually functions; but it does not account for everything.

Men & Magic hardly gives the matter any consideration at all; with the exception of a table (p.22). I suspect that this was one of the mechanics in the day that was pretty much learned, DM to DM, from observation.

From 2 to 12 numbers of undead can be turned away.The higher level clerics can even Dispel/disolve them(vicars and above).

But that's it! How it all works is somehow assumed to be known between the lines.

Researching the 3 LBBs I found no references as to how long the turning away is supposed to last. And while one (I) could easily incorporate the Mentzer mechanics for dealing with this clerical ability, it seems there should be a way unique to OD&D. So, I drew this up:

Undead will "flee" (turn away) from the cleric successfully performing the ability for a number of turns/rounds equal to the remaining dice pips when determining how many undead are affected. In other words, if only 2 are affected, they will flee for 10 turns/rounds; if 3 are affected, for 9 turns/rounds; etc. This reflects the notion that the fewer that are turned, the stronger their desire to get away from the combat--they were the weakest among the mob. So if 10 are turned, they will only flee for 2 turns/rounds, before the strength of their numbers drives them back to the scene of the combat.

Does that make sense?

[rastusburne]

That's a nice house rule because it accounts for a low roll, but also gives a duration mechanic for the effect. Personally, I run turn undead as presented in Men & Magic; it can be either powerful or possibly ineffectual. I'm inclined to think that the Cleric Versus Undead Monsters ability is fine how it is when one considers the Charm spell. It is 1st level, but without the Greyhawk additions it is very potent. Similarly the cleric ability can be potent, or it can be rather useless. I like the rawness of magical/supernatural ability within the White Box. An undead may flee indefinitely, be destroyed, or continue to attack.

[hedgehobbit]

Dan Boggs has a post about the possible origins of turning and how it worked:
boggswood.blogspot.com/2014/08/turn-undead-are-we-getting-it-wrong.html

The jist of it is that "turning" doesn't mean the monster turns and runs, just that it is kept at bay. It won't approach the turning character. Think of this as the scene from old horror movies (particularly Hammer horror which is known to have directly inspired Dave to make dungeons). Only after being turned three times in a single encounter will the monster flee.

Powerful "boss" monsters can make a save vs magic to avoid running.

I do a similar thing although my campaign doesn't have clerics so it makes sense for turning to be less powerful.

[tetramorph]

I've been convinced by the argument that the turn table is based on the reaction table.

So it is like undead reaction to holiness.

So I running it this way myself now:

Reaction roll modified by:

Cl lvl - monster HD +silver cross

This gives me more to interpret:

Uncertain = avoids cross but attack a other party member
Accepts = turn (in hedge hobbit's B movie sense, above)
Enthusiastic = dispel
Refuses = attacks party
Hostile = targets cleric for attack