"Reimagined OED&D"

[captaincrumbcake]

Hello, all--

Perilous asked if I would bring this subject up, here; as it is on another forum that is inaccessible to some.
I've provided him with a pdf of the document (as it appears to this moment). I hope it can be made available somehow to you all.

Basically, what Thorkhammer has done is take the Chain Mail MAN TO MAN combat rules, and re-thought them for OD&D; as the ACS (alternate combat system) Gygax and Arneson provide is based on the level/AC/d20 system they include. Thorkhammer felt the d20 was not appropriate as the mechanic, as it loses the "flavor" of CM and old school character. So he substituted the 3d6 combat table; adding a six-sider to the 2d6 system in CM.

Each weapon in CM had a "To Hit" number vs armor-type (not, AC). It is from this Thorkhammer devised a simple way of looking at combat from the "other side".

Fighting Men decrease the #s on the table by 2, and further decrease the #s by 1 per every 3 levels gained; @ L4, L7, L10, etc.
Clerics/Thieves decrease the figures by 1, further decreasing them by 1 per every 4 levels; @ L5, L9, etc.
Magic-users play them as given, decreasing them by 1 per every 5 levels gained; @ L6, L11, etc.
0-level types actually increase the #s.

There is a table for monsters, as well, with adjustments for size and HD-size.

It is all basically just a way of seeing the traditional D&D /d20 ACS from another perspective, but based on 3d6 which Thorkhammer felt was more appropriate for the old school character.

In addition, an equipment cost table shows figures greatly increased. And rangers are included as an example of porting in ideas from other systems.

That covers it, basically.

[Admin Pete]

Thank you for posting captaincrumbcake and as I have permission I will attach the file to this post so people can download and look at it.

Attachments:

ROEDD text.pdf (115.89 KB)

[Mike]

Similar combat table to 7 Voyages of Zyarlen, which I like. Even better it uses 3 - 18 instead of 1 - 20.

[hedgehobbit]

Oct 28, 2015 23:48:49 GMT -5 Mike said:

Similar combat table to 7 Voyages of Zyarlen, which I like.

Among others. The bar for Chainmail-based D&D has been raised pretty high. With Van Grasstek sitting atop the pile.

[dizzysaxophone]

Oct 14, 2015 16:12:22 GMT -5 Admin Pete said:

Thank you for posting captaincrumbcake and as I have permission I will attach the file to this post so people can download and look at it.

Thanks for that! Thorkie sent me a really early review copy without the Ranger stuff in it. He later offered me the updated one, but I thought it would come out for public release a little earlier and told him I could be patient.

[Admin Pete]

With permission from Thorkhammer I am posting some more info from the other thread:

Re-imagined Original Edition D&D or ...ROEDD!

Its something I'm working on.
Basically, I took the Man vs. Man melee table of Chain mail, the varying HD from Greyhawk and created charts to be used in place of the ones found in OD&D '74. I've also gone through the equipment list and upped the costs of things. The last thing I'm doing is going through the monsters (in both Monsters & Treasure and Monster Manual) and creating a combat matrix for them based on chain mail.
Everything else in the original books pretty much stays the same.
I'll let y'all know how it comes out.

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What the mechanic/system does is require the players and DM to be less-lazy than the "Alternate Combat System" on p.19 of M&M. EGG's/Dave's simplification of the combat procedure--substituting a d20 roll vs AC mechanic-- is simple, easy, quick, and IMO is fine for a novice or lazy player. But there was nothing wrong with the Man vs. Man tables in Chain Mail; they just needed to be clearer.
So, I begin with a table that shows each weapon's effectiveness vs. each armor (or none) type. From this, each class gets a penalty or bonus to their rolls, and each class gets a bonus after a certain number of levels (that varies with each class) is reached. I'll be creating a character sheet specifically to make using this mechanic as easy as ThAC0!

I finished side one of the character sheet, also. imnsho, this document might just do the trick in making OD&D more accessible to interested DMs. I'm going to continue working on it, to include the possible inclusions of things like paladins and rangers--which came into being during the '74 - '76 period.

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I. Reimagined character-combat/melee

Okay so, here's what I did regarding Man-to-Man.

1. If one examines this table from Chain Mail, you'll find that the numbers required to hit vary from weapon to weapon, against different types of armor. This is basically the same as taking the base # (according to class) and adding/subtracting the weapon modifiers that appear in 1E. Its simply 2 ways of looking at the same formula.
2. In 1E characters begin with the base line of #s to hit, that get progressively harder from 10 to 2. When weapon adjustments are made (if they are--as many DMs do not implement this mechanic!), all weapons end up needing different target #s to strike differing armor types (ACs).

In Chain Mail, there were no levels, per se. But character-types "attacked" along lines that kind of resemble levels. Example, "attack as 1 Man" or "2 Men+1" etc. So, as I interpreted it, Chain Mail characters used these modifiers in conjunction with the #s required in the Man-to-Man table. (I'm assuming this, for the sake of my reimagined system; I might probably be wrong in this assumption, so feel free to correct this for historical/actual purposes.)

Thus. in my reimagined system I suggest the following:

3. For OD&D, utilize the Man-to-Man table as is, with the class modifiers I suggest in the document. While it is essentially just another way at achieving the same result as found in 1E (and described above), it reflects--imnsho--more the character of "old school"/Chain Mail-ish/OD&D style gaming.

II. Character class HD/hp

Essentially, the tables in Men & Magic remain intact; though I did diddle a little where some of the +1 modifiers didn't quite fit the progressions. But rather than having all classes use the same d6 to generate hp, I inserted the suggested die found in Greyhawk regarding each class. In this regard, Fighting-Men are far superior to the other classes, while the rest are separated, but within reasonable reach of one another.

This gives each class more distinction regarding combat, as well. Its not as likely that a level 5 magic-user will have the same or more hp than a level 3 Fighting Man. (A feature of the original game which I always disliked.) But that's just my opinion.

The document also includes equipment costs, and rangers--as an example of how to port other sources or create one's own--into the system.

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Well, imnsho, one thing Greyhawk Supplement and 1E got right was in assigning each class its own HD. And that was why I decided to port that mechanic into the ODD system. I prefer my magic-users and thieves to have less hp than clerics and fighter types--but that's a personal choice. It wouldn't break anything to keep the d6 for the MU and thief, but I'd up the cleric to a d8 in that case.

******************************************************************

What the mechanic/system does is require the players and DM to be less-lazy than the "Alternate Combat System" on p.19 of M&M. EGG's/Dave's simplification of the combat procedure--substituting a d20 roll vs AC mechanic-- is simple, easy, quick, and IMO is fine for a novice or lazy player. But there was nothing wrong with the Man vs. Man tables in Chain Mail; they just needed to be clearer.

The d20 Alternate Combat System is simple, easy, and quick. And if one happens to be a novice (which the edition was largely aimed at), or just a player that likes things easier (I used the term "lazy" and perhaps that was inappropriate), the AC system is just fine.

As for me, if I ever get to run an OD&D game/campaign, I'm going to use my own (HR) re-imagined version.

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[captaincrumbcake]

[waysoftheearth]

Quote by Admin of Thorkhammer at DF:


Well, imnsho, one thing Greyhawk Supplement and 1E got right was in assigning each class its own HD. And that was why I decided to port that mechanic into the ODD system. I prefer my magic-users and thieves to have less hp than clerics and fighter types--but that's a personal choice. It wouldn't break anything to keep the d6 for the MU and thief, but I'd up the cleric to a d8 in that case.

I agree that the F-M could do with a slight bump in total hp, particularly in those early levels.

However, GH actually reverses one of the OD&D fighting-man's advantages. He goes from gaining hit dice at the overall fastest rate of all classes in M&M, to gaining HD at the overall slowest rate of all the classes in GH.

Number of HD is a significant stat in terms of various spells and special powers that will/will not affect a target, and (depending on which combat rules you choose) the number of attacks in combat versus normal-types.

[captaincrumbcake]

That said, the ROED&D fighting man gains levels/HD faster among all 4 core classes up to 7th level. From 8 up, the thief class gains the advantage slightly. But the FM always has the better HD gain per level than the other classes--in ROED&D.

[captaincrumbcake]

Update:
The Re-imagined Original Edition D&D document has been incorporated into my Dun Mark Supplement. Essentially the same thing, except I limit the GH material regarding thieves; humans only!
That said, the Demi-humans are able to perform most of the thief actions at a skill equivalent to a thief of 1st, 3rd or 5th level (depending on the modifier to the action.)
I did this, because anyone can attempt to perform a "thief" action. But only thieves get better as they gain levels. (See tables below)

THIEF CLASS

                                   Hit Dice for

Level     Thieves        Accumulated hits      Experience      Thief Skills*      Back Stabbing**

   1     Apprentice               1d4                      0                 +1               +2 to damage

   2     Footpad                  2d4                  1200                                  +3 to damage

   3     Robber                    3d4                  2400                +2               +4 to damage

   4     Burglar                    4d4                  4800                                  +5 to damage

   5     Cutpurse                 5d4                  9600                +3               +6 to damage

   6     Sharper                  6d4                 20000                                  +7 to damage

   7     Pilferer                   7d4                 40000                +4              +8 to damage

   8     Master Pilferer         8d4                 60000                                 +9 to damage

   9     Thief                     9d4                 90000                +5              +10 to damage

  10     Master Thief 10     9d4+2             150000                                  +11 to damage

  11     Master Thief 11     9d4+6             250000                +6              +12 to damage

  12     King of Thieves      9d4+8             350000



  The armor and weapons restrictions/allowances already designated in the Greyhawk supplement are retained in regards to the thief for this document. While Greyhawk allows the demi-human races to become thieves, such is not the case for Dun Mark and The Lost Lands campaign. However, demi-humans have natural affinities toward certain actions labeled as Thief Skills*--stemming from racial lifestyles-- and are thus given minor bonuses to these, thus making them equal to a thief of certain levels. (* See next section.)

** Back Stabbing is not treated as a general melee attack from behind. It is a specialized skill exclusive to thieves. Why? Because it can never be done in haste, as in the rapid and confusing condition of combat. Instead, it is a concentrated strike at a location where success will penetrate to a vital organ within the target. It is the most difficult attack to achieve, as it requires the thief to surprise from behind his or her intended victim. Thus a successful Move Silently might be included in such an attempt; thieves Hiding In Shadows can also launch such an attack, should the intended victim place him or herself in the position to be back stabbed. An intended victim cannot be wearing any armor, including a helmet if the intended strike location is the back of the head, and must be humanoid; animals, fantastic creatures and beings do not have the same anatomy as humans, dwarfs, elves, hobbits, ogres, orcs, etc.



 APPENDIX E        ATTEMPTED ACTIONS, MANUFACTURED DEVICES & THIEFS' SKILLS*



ACTIONS

Characters will want to attempt certain actions again and again during their adventuring career. One could say these are dungeon requirements: Open Doors, Listen, Search for Traps, etc. The OD&D rules deal with these already, but the following table is provided for you to incorporate if you wish something more detailed (graphic) to illustrate to your players.



DEVICES

Locks in doors/chests/walls and traps (in same) are the most common form of mechanical device characters will have to contend with during their adventures. Not all such devices are complex--most tend to be simple--but still require someone with an affinity (i.e., knowledge) of such things.



THIEF'S SKILLS

Many actions attemptable by anyone also fall into the profession of thievery. Because of such, thieves develop their skills in these actions over time (with each level and with much practice) and improve in them well beyond others. Skills associated with thievery include: opening locks, finding & removing (small) traps, picking pockets, moving silently, hiding in shadows, climbing nearly sheer surfaces (walls). As stated, anyone can attempt to perform these actions, but only the thief rises in ability in these areas. This is reflected in the bonus shown above under Thief's Skills as a positive modifier, (+1, +2, etc.) A thief's dexterity score also affects his or her ability to perform actions associated with his profession. DEX 13+ gains a +1 bonus to all thief-skill attempts; DEX 8 or less, a -1.

Consult the tables to follow for anyone attempting to perform thieving or other actions.



TABLE I RACIAL ADJUSTMENTS TO THIEF ACTIONS/SKILLS



Race           OL*     F/RT*     PP     MS     HIS     HN

Dwarf          +1       +3        ---     +1      +1      ---

Elf             ---       ---       +1      +2      +3      ---

Hobbit        +2       +1        +1      +2      +2      +1

Human        ---      ---       ---     ---     ---      ---



A modifier of +3 is equivalent to a 5th level thief with no DEX adjustment. +2, a 3rd level thief. +1 a 1st level thief.



TABLE II OF ACTIONS


Roll # or better on               DESCRIPTION OF CONDITION FOR ACTIONS/DEVICE QUALITY

3d6 to succeed

       18                              Near impossible to achieve/Masterwork, multi-component device*

       17                              Very difficult; extreme luck or skill required/very complex device*

    13-16                            Difficult, but good chance of succeeding/more complex device*

    10-12                            Hard, but usually possible to achieve/somewhat complex device*

      5-9                             Favorable conditions for success/simple devices*

       4                               Easy task to perform/basic device involved*

       3                               Near perfect conditions for success/very primitive device involved*