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Post by karaunios on Jun 9, 2021 9:52:55 GMT -5
Note that this is not bashing are anything or anyone, although it might look like a rant. It's a genuine question, or series thereof, that I'm throwing there.
I know a good argument for getting a retroclone is money and, according to some, better/more logical (?) layout and presentation. But if you already have the old books and are used to them, what's the point in getting again a game with the rules that you already have?
Ok, maybe they're books you can bring out of home, you fear lees handling them because they're not as fragile and valuabe as the old ones. Collecting also comes to mind (but that's not an advantage per se). Those might be valuable arguments.
But, talking exclusively about the mechanical part of it, I wanted to say that I ended up selling most of what I had in terms of retroclones. It was getting tiresome seeing the same tables, the same classes, the same spells, the same explanations over and over again. Everyone have their take in the game, but the game is just the same. Why do I need exactly the same game with, at best, two modified numbers in this saving throw table or in that attack matrix?
And for those games based on the old editions of D&D but that give them a new take, what are your opinions? What do you think of, for instance, Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea? Is it really worth it buying a book like that? Or you could just play your OD&D or B/X, throw in a couple ideas of your own and you don't have to spend money on a product?
What are your takes on this subject? I would like to hear them!
Cheers
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Post by mao on Jun 9, 2021 10:19:52 GMT -5
I think clones are a waste of creativity, time and money. They are all so similar you only need one. The creative energy tied up in them is better spent on monsters, items, spells, etc. That being said I don't have the LBB so I am going to have to buy one eventually. I have S&W but I am not very fond of it. I had Crypts and Things but had page after page of errata of my own. I need to go on a hunt.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jun 9, 2021 11:54:06 GMT -5
Note that this is not bashing are anything or anyone, although it might look like a rant. It's a genuine question, or series thereof, that I'm throwing there. I know a good argument for getting a retroclone is money and, according to some, better/more logical (?) layout and presentation. But if you already have the old books and are used to them, what's the point in getting again a game with the rules that you already have? Ok, maybe they're books you can bring out of home, you fear lees handling them because they're not as fragile and valuabe as the old ones. Collecting also comes to mind (but that's not an advantage per se). Those might be valuable arguments. But, talking exclusively about the mechanical part of it, I wanted to say that I ended up selling most of what I had in terms of retroclones. It was getting tiresome seeing the same tables, the same classes, the same spells, the same explanations over and over again. Everyone have their take in the game, but the game is just the same. Why do I need exactly the same game with, at best, two modified numbers in this saving throw table or in that attack matrix? And for those games based on the old editions of D&D but that give them a new take, what are your opinions? What do you think of, for instance, Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea? Is it really worth it buying a book like that? Or you could just play your OD&D or B/X, throw in a couple ideas of your own and you don't have to spend money on a product? What are your takes on this subject? I would like to hear them! Cheers First I am not going to get any of the ones that I have to pay for. Not when there are so many that are completely free. Your example of AS&SH may have some great ideas, but I am not able to buy it. All of the new takes, I would love to see, but I cannot spend the money on them. But I can read reviews and commentary and do my own research to go that direction if I want. That is one reason I have a section where people can start threads and talk about all of these games. Some of us might be sold on taking the plunge if we know more about them. For instance, if I had the money I would not only go buy Adventurer, Conqueror, King; I would also go buy all of the Harn books. That is very unlikely to ever happen. Second IMO, the two very best retro clones are Delving Deeper and Iron Falcon (3LBBs plus Greyhawk), if you are looking for the closest to OD&D in a clone. Swords & Wizardy is popular, but for my taste it diverges more from the real thing. Third IMO, one of the advantages of OD&D are the ambiguities and occasional vagueness. Those are features not bugs. Four, Delving Deeper has IIRC either a word or rtf document that you can edit yourself, so you could take your original OD&D and edit those documents plus add in your house rules and print the game as you play it and not further wear out your originals. I don't remember off the top of my head, if anyone else gives them out in a form you can edit. To be honest though, I find nothing (NOTHING) wrong with the layout and presentation of OD&D, it is not illogical IMO. Fifth, I don't look at clones or value them for what you call the "tiresome" part above. I look at them for any unique ideas that I might like to steal or a house rule that I might like to try. Also if I ever get around to sitting down and taking the editable document and updating it to my game, there are wording here and there from a dozen games that I might use to get my final home version. Sixth, I am completely in favor of more clones, especially ones that are free in pdf or print on demand at cost (for those that want it). Partly because I am hopeful that one of the clone makers will stumble on the novel idea of The Arduin Grimoire and turn out a product that is a grab bag of ideas - the way such a product should be done - rough and mostly unedited. Most people would dog that product and author unmercifully, but I would give him accolades as being true to the roots of the game. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jun 9, 2021 11:57:34 GMT -5
I think clones are a waste of creativity, time and money. They are all so similar you only need one. The creative energy tied up in them is better spent on monsters, items, spells, etc. That being said I don't have the LBB so I am going to have to buy one eventually. I have S&W but I am not very fond of it. I had Crypts and Things but had page after page of errata of my own. I need to go on a hunt. See I disagree with you, because I think if someone writes there own clone, they are more likely to produce supplements of monsters, items, spells, etc. I suggest you get the word/rtf (not sure which) copies of Delving Deeper and then edit it to suit yourself from the LBBs from DriveThru in pdf. You might also like Iron Falcon it is a very close clone of OD&D in all respects. |
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Post by karaunios on Jun 10, 2021 3:45:40 GMT -5
I have both S&W White Box and Delving Deeper. Actually, those are the only two I've got and only use them as a substitute to my LBBs when I'm outside my home.
Regarding its utility, I mostly agree with mao but partially with The Perilous Dreamer too. Those you get for free, are free, and that's fine, and there's some extra creativity out there that might be worth taking a look into thanks to supplements and new modules. But you still have to wade through a repetition of what you've already seen. Tables, spells, etc., around 97% of most games are the same in this regard, and that makes it boring for me. I already have all that.That's why I sold most of those I got.
I agree wholeheartedly with you, TPD, the vagueness of OD&D is a feature.
I can't comment on the Arduin Grimoire, as I don't have it. But I understand it's full of whacky ideas and random tables. That's always a good thing.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jun 10, 2021 10:51:51 GMT -5
I have both S&W White Box and Delving Deeper. Actually, those are the only two I've got and only use them as a substitute to my LBBs when I'm outside my home. Regarding its utility, I mostly agree with mao but partially with The Perilous Dreamer too. Those you get for free, are free, and that's fine, and there's some extra creativity out there that might be worth taking a look into thanks to supplements and new modules. But you still have to wade through a repetition of what you've already seen. Tables, spells, etc., around 97% of most games are the same in this regard, and that makes it boring for me. I already have all that.That's why I sold most of those I got. I agree wholeheartedly with you, TPD, the vagueness of OD&D is a feature. I can't comment on the Arduin Grimoire, as I don't have it. But I understand it's full of whacky ideas and random tables. That's always a good thing. Looking at pdfs of clones, I can skim through one in about 20 minutes, note anything unique and then go back and look at it, so the repetition doesn't really bother me. I am not really into buying any of the clones. I go with the free pdfs and the ones that are not free, if I get a chance to look at them, I will but there is very little that I will buy unless I am already assured that it is a quality item. If I write a clone, I will have two goals, one is to reproduce the parts that a lot of people do not like, the ambiguity and occasional vagueness which is part of what made the game magic to begin with and two is to make it enough different that I am not using the OGL. That means unique names of some monsters and unique versions of all the monsters, but that would be part of the fun. The Arduin Grimoire Trilogy - retypset (way more readable) and reformatted into a single volume is for sale on DriveThruRPG Arduin Grimoire Trilogy for $23.99, which is considerably less than you can buy one hard copy of one volume used. |
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Post by El Borak on Jun 14, 2021 12:38:16 GMT -5
I like to see the clones, the more the merrier. Although, I prefer the free ones, at my age there is no way I am buying any of them. Now if I were 40 years younger or even young enough to have young kids, I would buy a couple of them.
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Post by Zantar Boltic on Jun 17, 2021 12:07:14 GMT -5
I am only going to play the 1974 D&D with only the 3LBBs, no supplements, but heavily house ruled. I have no need of anything else. However, that said, I love to read anything free, so bring on the clones. They are all worth a skim through, to see if there is anything novel. Besides, one thing we know, the free ones were labors of love. Not to say the ones being sold are not; how some ever, the ones being sold do not have me as part of the target audience.
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Post by Barfog on Jun 19, 2021 16:29:10 GMT -5
I like the retro clones, I hope people keep writing them. The more of them there are the more likely OD&D is to be preserved for future generations. Because that is a good record of where a lot of the clones came from and later generations are always more interested in sources than the current generations. Once all of the original adopters are gone, then interest will truly start to grow again. The whole OSR is in some sense an aberration, that arrived early due to the OGL. Otherwise it is 50 years in the future.
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