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Post by tetramorph on Jan 24, 2015 15:12:59 GMT -5
I don't even like the term "end game," but you guys know what I mean.
I do not think it was ever "end game," it was, upon D&D's first publication, just THE game. They were trying to forge a way to figure out how these kings had become kings, and how these military leaders had risen up the ranks, and where did they get their crazy, ancient, powerful magical items? (Dungeons, obviously!)
But then the tool to answer those questions for a fantastical medieval war game campaign took over. So called "role playing games" were "invented." Now folks just want to keep going back into dungeon after dungeon.
How do you get your players interested in the war game, "end game," really campaign-level game? Do you just find like minded folks? Do you just talk it up until they are interested? Do you beg? Do you somehow build it into your game, with some kind of rewarding mechanic for it?
I am looking for campaigning wisdom here.
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Post by Admin Pete on Jan 26, 2015 23:47:41 GMT -5
I don't even like the term "end game," but you guys know what I mean. I do not think it was ever "end game," it was, upon D&D's first publication, just THE game. They were trying to forge a way to figure out how these kings had become kings, and how these military leaders had risen up the ranks, and where did they get their crazy, ancient, powerful magical items? (Dungeons, obviously!) But then the tool to answer those questions for a fantastical medieval war game campaign took over. So called "role playing games" were "invented." Now folks just want to keep going back into dungeon after dungeon. How do you get your players interested in the war game, "end game," really campaign-level game? Do you just find like minded folks? Do you just talk it up until they are interested? Do you beg? Do you somehow build it into your game, with some kind of rewarding mechanic for it? I am looking for campaigning wisdom here. Great points and great questions! I wish I knew the answers, bitd we clearly understood the implied "end game"; however, out of the core of 12 players I was the only one that really had an interest in it and we never did it. I would love to though!
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Jan 27, 2015 14:48:23 GMT -5
Great subject! I've always been interested in doing this. One of the first thoughts that went through my head when I got the Rules Cyclopedia was "we gotta go from the start to finish on our characters..." but we never did. Like the previous posters int this thread, I wanted to do it "right" but it never seemed to happen. I have no campaign wisdom for you on this one other than we may have to pool our collective experience to get the answer.
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Post by tetramorph on Jan 27, 2015 18:07:58 GMT -5
Well here's my plan for my local campaign group:
Start 'em all off in dungeons, as per usual, killing 'em off until enough have made it to around lvl 4.
Then I will ONLY given HX crawl campaign hooks. They WILL be heading into the "Forests of Dun Kells" whether they like it or not!
I will continue to kill 'em off as much as possible until a couple reach 7th lvl. Then events will turn such that they will wind up with land whether they wanted it or not!
Once they have strongholds the demon hoards will appear at their gates in no time!
But, gee whiz, how long will I have to wait before I get to send the demon hoards? Sigh.
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Post by Admin Pete on Jan 27, 2015 19:05:21 GMT -5
Well here's my plan for my local campaign group: Start 'em all off in dungeons, as per usual, killing 'em off until enough have made it to around lvl 4. Then I will ONLY given HX crawl campaign hooks. They WILL be heading into the "Forests of Dun Kells" whether they like it or not! I will continue to kill 'em off as much as possible until a couple reach 7th lvl. Then events will turn such that they will wind up with land whether they wanted it or not! Once they have strongholds the demon hoards will appear at their gates in no time! But, gee whiz, how long will I have to wait before I get to send the demon hoards? Sigh. Railroad of death!? I don't think you have to kill them, they usually do that to themselves. I don't think you have to worry about forcing things, let it grow as it will there are a lot of things that you can do I think. Part of it, I believe is how often can you play.
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Post by tetramorph on Jan 27, 2015 19:59:41 GMT -5
Well here's my plan for my local campaign group: Start 'em all off in dungeons, as per usual, killing 'em off until enough have made it to around lvl 4. Then I will ONLY given HX crawl campaign hooks. They WILL be heading into the "Forests of Dun Kells" whether they like it or not! I will continue to kill 'em off as much as possible until a couple reach 7th lvl. Then events will turn such that they will wind up with land whether they wanted it or not! Once they have strongholds the demon hoards will appear at their gates in no time! But, gee whiz, how long will I have to wait before I get to send the demon hoards? Sigh. Railroad of death!? I don't think you have to kill them, they usually do that to themselves. I don't think you have to worry about forcing things, let it grow as it will there are a lot of things that you can do I think. Part of it, I believe is how often can you play. Right you are, as usual. I was half joking, of course. I do not intend a railroad! They will certainly get themselves killed. As ref, I am only obliged to proved ample opportunity! But I reserve the right to switch to hex crawls when they are ready. And if one of them is granted a title and a deed, well then, there we go!
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Post by finarvyn on Feb 4, 2015 8:51:16 GMT -5
It often comes down to the demographic of your players. My high school group in the 1970's loved miniatures battles and wargames, so they drifted to the role of kings and barons fighting one other in a very natural way once they achieved a decent level. Indeed, a couple of them often forced the issue and tried to find ways to assume control of the local village or castle or petty kingdom, then declared war on a neighbor. My current group has zero interest in fighting battles. They have little interest in wargames and don't do board games much, either. War breaking out has been a "campaign killer" on a couple of different occasions for this group -- the mere mention of fighting a war caused a noticeable lack of interest, so I'm pretty much done trying to ram that option down their throats.
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Post by Mr Darke on Feb 6, 2015 15:43:30 GMT -5
I have an endgame but it does not involve domains. The basic premise is that to 'win' a character or characters have to destroy the Demiurge of the particular world they play in. I start dropping hints around level 7 or so about the existence of this and start hinting that this is the final task of the game. So far only one player caught on but died getting the needed items and spells to do so. He got as far as constructing the portal but made and error and was wiped from existence.
Yes, it is a bit brutal but changes up the domain play.
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Post by tetramorph on Feb 6, 2015 17:20:40 GMT -5
I have an endgame but it does not involve domains. The basic premise is that to 'win' a character or characters have to destroy the Demiurge of the particular world they play in. I start dropping hints around level 7 or so about the existence of this and start hinting that this is the final task of the game. So far only one player caught on but died getting the needed items and spells to do so. He got as far as constructing the portal but made and error and was wiped from existence. Yes, it is a bit brutal but changes up the domain play. Very crazy and nice! Does dominion / barony / wargame play help towards the defeat of this demiurge?
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Post by Mr Darke on Feb 6, 2015 22:31:57 GMT -5
It can. Domain level play is actually a trick to get the characters distracted. If they are busy handling kingdom affairs how could they focus on him/it? However, they can end up in wars with minions or avatars of the demiurge which helps them learn more.
Typically the demiurge takes different forms depending on the world. In my FR campaign he was AO, in another he was actually Asemodeus. In this one I am leaning toward it taking a form of a giant dragon or shaking it up with it being an arcane machine of some kind.
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Post by makofan on Feb 10, 2015 15:05:44 GMT -5
In my Verbosh campaign, the players are almost there.
William, a level 7 cleric, has founded his own religion and bought a building in the city of Verbosh, which he turned into a temple. His player found that he did not know how to handle this aspect, and became almost paralyzed with indecision for 5 months. He is currently out adventuring again with...
...Yhency, a level 5 elf with a dancing sword who is trying to become the new ruler of Verbosh. He has developed a small Cult of the Floating Sword, and sponsored a rumor that the true king would wield a floating sword (the current ruler is a usurper). They need money, and need to take down the Spider Temple and buy off all the city guards and the army.
The others are level 5-6 and off adventuring for magic items and cash. I don't know if they are thinking end game yet.
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Post by tetramorph on Feb 10, 2015 15:16:05 GMT -5
In my Verbosh campaign, the players are almost there. William, a level 7 cleric, has founded his own religion and bought a building in the city of Verbosh, which he turned into a temple. His player found that he did not know how to handle this aspect, and became almost paralyzed with indecision for 5 months. He is currently out adventuring again with... ...Yhency, a level 5 elf with a dancing sword who is trying to become the new ruler of Verbosh. He has developed a small Cult of the Floating Sword, and sponsored a rumor that the true king would wield a floating sword (the current ruler is a usurper). They need money, and need to take down the Spider Temple and buy off all the city guards and the army. The others are level 5-6 and off adventuring for magic items and cash. I don't know if they are thinking end game yet. You can bet that Pelham (my PC in Makofan's campaign over on ODD74) wants his own keep! He has a ways to go. And judging from my most beloved fellow players favorite way to play, that is going to be a very long time!
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Post by makofan on Feb 10, 2015 16:28:15 GMT -5
Well, Pelham could always strike off on his own wants he gets to Warrenberg, if he wishes...
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Post by Vile Traveller on Feb 11, 2015 4:15:52 GMT -5
I've always loved the "end game" but haven't had a chance to try it out nearly as often as I would like - although I have played through such situations in lots of other games: RuneQuest, Traveller, and now a 5E campaign. Wish I could get a referee to try it out old-school style.
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Post by tetramorph on Feb 11, 2015 13:21:20 GMT -5
I've always loved the "end game" but haven't had a chance to try it out nearly as often as I would like - although I have played through such situations in lots of other games: RuneQuest, Traveller, and now a 5E campaign. Wish I could get a referee to try it out old-school style. I think that is what this forum is for, among other things. Sign up for my campaign-lvl heavily-house-ruled "Risk" game that I am setting up in my "Dun Kells" world, if you'd like. I am planning on starting from the highest level and working down, rather than the reverse, just to see how things go. So, once someone "wins" that game, I will start a HX crawl into the Fay wilds of Dun Kells so that the conqueror can have better military advantage, etc. I hope others will start some hx-crawls leading to baronies and war-games over here as well!
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Post by Von on Feb 13, 2015 2:21:23 GMT -5
@mr Darke - your "slay the demiurge to end the game" (and world?) approach is interesting and wouldn't be entirely incompatible with I'm-Still-Not-Calling-It-Titan. There are no conventional gods to be had and the idea of a single tyrannical entity squatting atop the central mountain would fit nicely with the Blakean cosmology. As for 'endgame' - I think it's probably called that because settling down to govern a domain means giving up the adventuring and heroics that 'took over' the game as tetramorph suggests. "Give up your fun and settle down to a life of tax management." I see it as a potential shift of play-style. Bear in mind that I don't believe the dungeon is appropriate for characters of less than fourth level unless they're part of a large expedition, i.e. someone else's hirelings, so there's likely to have been one such shift of play already. Whether or not that shift is interesting is very much predicated on the players available. Some people just don't want to play Fantasy Feudal Overlord and some will probably be well up for it. Some people won't be wanting to change gears into a game that incorporates regular rounds of Hordes of the Things or Saga or whatever other wargames I end up bastardising. I can think of several players who wouldn't mind being the character pieces and joint commanders of a 10mm scale wargame and they might be subtly guided toward domain-level play. My current brace of players actively resent the "small rag-tag group of adventurers" model and have expressed a preference for the kind of society-oriented play that might come with domain management. Their characters were brought into being at ninth level for a playtest through Ravenloft (the explanation would be both long and tangential, ask me if you're interested) and they may end up taking over the castle and domain if they make it through the experience undrained of levels. I suppose what I'm trying to say is "don't force it on a given group, it's only one option". Transcendence into another plane at tenth level (with the adoption of a 'prestige class' upgrade on one's old self) is something else I've considered - the mightiest heroes ride off into the mists and emerge as novitiate adventurers in a higher realm. There's also the 'slow gain' model of play in which a player is lucky to reach sixth level after several years. And finally, there's the route I might well take - reminding people that on No-I-Can't-Just-Call-It-Titan the majority of 'domains' are urban and held by powerful lineages - acquiring territory involves marrying or murdering your way into power or carving out new territory in the freezing fungal hellscape below the mists. People can live down there but it's a hard, frontiersmanish sort of life... almost an adventure in its own right.
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Post by scottanderson on Mar 31, 2015 14:47:23 GMT -5
In my next campaign i will be rather heavy-handed. I will include near the top of the house rules document the following statement: "The object of the game is to live long enough to claim some land, build a castle, and rule a domain of your own. PCs will be able to become kings and leaders of churches."
So there it is: a built in admonition to look toward domain play.
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Post by Admin Pete on Mar 31, 2015 14:57:49 GMT -5
In my next campaign i will be rather heavy-handed. I will include near the top of the house rules document the following statement: "The object of the game is to live long enough to claim some land, build a castle, and rule a domain of your own. PCs will be able to become kings and leaders of churches." So there it is: a built in admonition to look toward domain play. Hopefully you players will buy into that, but by and large players don't seem to buy into that over all. So I wish you the best of luck and assuming it does happen, I want to hear about it.
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Post by scottanderson on Mar 31, 2015 15:32:04 GMT -5
It also meant to be self-directed play, with respect for player agency. So if they don't, they don't. And at any rate it could take years of weekly troupe-style play for any one character to get enough money together to try.
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Post by Admin Pete on Mar 31, 2015 15:52:08 GMT -5
It also meant to be self-directed play, with respect for player agency. So if they don't, they don't. And at any rate it could take years of weekly troupe-style play for any one character to get enough money together to try. Playing once per month the Murkhill Campaign took 5 years to get a one player to an 8th level Superhero, I wish I could play weekly. Then about 2.5 years to reach a 9th level Lord would be good. My games move quickly most of the time, so they can cover a lot in 4-5 hours. Bitd we would play 10-14 hours twice per week. Those were the days. From what I have heard we were odd balls in a way because a lot of games bitd were Monty Haul and ours never were.
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Post by robkuntz on Apr 21, 2015 13:04:31 GMT -5
There is no end game as originally suggested by the OP. This thing has legs as far as the imagination can imagine, unless one imposes such a stoppage. So, YMMV.
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Post by ffilz on Apr 21, 2015 17:41:41 GMT -5
In my Verbosh campaign, the players are almost there. William, a level 7 cleric, has founded his own religion and bought a building in the city of Verbosh, which he turned into a temple. His player found that he did not know how to handle this aspect, and became almost paralyzed with indecision for 5 months. He is currently out adventuring again with... ...Yhency, a level 5 elf with a dancing sword who is trying to become the new ruler of Verbosh. He has developed a small Cult of the Floating Sword, and sponsored a rumor that the true king would wield a floating sword (the current ruler is a usurper). They need money, and need to take down the Spider Temple and buy off all the city guards and the army. The others are level 5-6 and off adventuring for magic items and cash. I don't know if they are thinking end game yet. I think Jariel hasn't seen something yet to attract him away from adventuring. Perhaps exploring the forests will attract him to something. Or maybe he'll seek to set Garfund up as a lord somewhere... I think there's some interesting exploration as to what the level limits for non-humans really mean in the game play. Hmm, and from that perspective, Rob, I'd like your perspective on what happened in Greyhawk and other campaigns. Frank
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Post by jmccann on Apr 21, 2015 20:43:17 GMT -5
There is no end game as originally suggested by the OP. Yes. "End game" is one of the OSRisms which were not things bitd.
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Post by robkuntz on Apr 22, 2015 0:28:00 GMT -5
Well that fits well with my reaction to most off-hand codifications coming forth from select corners of the Internet; and they have been suitably grouped into one category marked as "platitudinous." There are so many variabilities possible for starting points, as well, all due the scaling that is possible. so there is no real "Beginning game" either, especially for veteran players who have already cut their teeth on ranges of play, as the LGTSA membership did. I resist all forms of calcification of thought as a norm for the game but will always bow to personal choice as long as it is not propagandized as other than that.
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Post by Von on Apr 22, 2015 11:56:04 GMT -5
There is no end game as originally suggested by the OP. Yes. "End game" is one of the OSRisms which were not things bitd. Interesting. Wonder where it came from, then?
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Post by tetramorph on Apr 22, 2015 16:56:08 GMT -5
I want to echo Von's point. It may not have been a term BITD. But it is a term now. And as long as one clarifies, qualifies, etc. terms are just that: terms. Imperfect, but often helpful. I talk about "end game" with people (with appropriate qualifiers) in order to get folks who a.) are not wargammers and b.) are modern RPG players and don't know any better, to understand the broader context out of which D&D arose and one of its assumptions and assumed (but not exclusive) play-goals for characters.
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Post by jmccann on Apr 23, 2015 21:12:59 GMT -5
Yes. "End game" is one of the OSRisms which were not things bitd. Interesting. Wonder where it came from, then? I think when the OSR emerged (whatever that means), a vocabulary emerged with it to help distinguish from current RPG practice what is now called old-school play styles. "Megadungeon" and "end-game" are the two words that became prominent that I think of immediately and there are many more. "Class-based" "race-as-class" are a couple more terms that I never heard until recently.
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Post by Robert the Black on May 4, 2015 16:12:12 GMT -5
There is no end game as originally suggested by the OP. This thing has legs as far as the imagination can imagine, unless one imposes such a stoppage. So, YMMV. I don't know if the OP was using "end game" in the limiting sense as you are noting or not. I believe that he was using end game in the "when higher level players build strongholds and do something other than adventure which most of us have never had the chance to play" sense. So your input on that type of play (not as a limit or stoppage) but as a type of play that many/most of us have never had a chance to play would be useful. I have not yet had fellow players who wanted to build strongholds and I would like to hear about that type of play. In your experience have you ever had a player build a stronghold while other players kept doing other things. Do you have any suggestions for how I might persuade my DM to let me do that even if none of the other players were willing to?
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Post by robkuntz on May 4, 2015 16:24:53 GMT -5
Yes. "End game" is one of the OSRisms which were not things bitd. Interesting. Wonder where it came from, then? Probably from the same crowd who believes that if you say something long enough then it becomes dictum. Actually: more probable that the game, which is based on corporate climbing (leveling), must have some end-point (a retro-retirement phase); and as suggested by moving from low level in the towns and surrounding areas to "high" level play on the outdoor and other places so removed from the start point. But it's only one of thousands of variations that can be imagined.
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Post by robkuntz on May 4, 2015 20:27:36 GMT -5
There is no end game as originally suggested by the OP. This thing has legs as far as the imagination can imagine, unless one imposes such a stoppage. So, YMMV. I don't know if the OP was using "end game" in the limiting sense as you are noting or not. I believe that he was using end game in the "when higher level players build strongholds and do something other than adventure which most of us have never had the chance to play" sense. So your input on that type of play (not as a limit or stoppage) but as a type of play that many/most of us have never had a chance to play would be useful. I have not yet had fellow players who wanted to build strongholds and I would like to hear about that type of play. In your experience have you ever had a player build a stronghold while other players kept doing other things. Do you have any suggestions for how I might persuade my DM to let me do that even if none of the other players were willing to? That's a hard one. I really dislike making suggestions, and not because I have no substance to offer, but because it's my own; and as much as it works for me i have no general POV of how that might or might not work for others. Your main point seems to be that the DM needs to be persuaded and that this has not been elevated in status equal to what is now taking place in the game. I would do as any player BITD did with Gary and myself as DMs: they came forward and stated what their PCs were doing, and we adjudicated the possibilities/probabilities thereof. Yes. People did anything that they could think of, with varying results, of course. There were no prescriptions, thus no limitations. If the DM doesn't forward possibilities in an open manner based on player choice then they are not impartial to play and perhaps view the experience in a lesser light than the players themselves. My suggestion is to start small with a house in a town and steer the whole thing to larger horizons, this if you are feeling trapped to a certain play mode only that the DM will not move from. Failing that, find another DM...
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