notes on The Autumntide of the Middle Ages

[hengest]

This thread will consist of quotes from and game-ideas / world-ideas inspired by the history book The Autumntide of the Middle Ages by Johan Huizinga (1872 - 1935).

One of the central ideas in the first part of the book is that cultural forms and the relationship between show and reality were simply different half a thousand years ago from what they are now.  Emotion and desire and more strongly and obviously expressed. But there is much more to it.  Rather than trying to explain the book, I will hope that the quotes will stand more or less on their own and that I will make some minimally useful commentary.

I recommend that anyone interested in an inspired historical take on late medieval times times get the book or check it out of the library.  There are several translations into English available.

I find this book completely fascinating. 

My posts on this thread are not intended to explain or interpret the book, simply to use quotes from the book as jumping-off points for gaming and worldbuilding ideas.

[hengest]

Re: gold possessed in the late medieval period, Huizinga writes:

And these treasures have not yet that ghostly intangibility that modern credit procedures have bestowed on capital; it is still yellow gold itself that is in the forefront of fantasy. (Chapter 1, "The Passionate Intensity of Life")

The complete abstraction of money (gold, silver, copper) often found in fantasy RPGs is most convenient, but there is a price to be paid for this convenience.  The bare fact that material wealth could be found in the form of metal coins, real items such as a child (or anyone) would like to sift through, is a part of the history of our own world that we can access through fantasy.  And it seems to be that this is as worthwhile as the representation of magic or great physical strength.  

In relation to this, I'm leaning strongly toward divorcing XP from gaining / spending coin and combat entirely and simply to assign it in other ways.  I don't feel any strong benefit to be gained from mixing the mechanic of XP with the beauty of metal coins.  

[hengest]

Certainly read at least the bold type, if not the whole paragraph.

While the mechanism of the administration of the state and the state budget had in reality already assumed complicated forms, politics were embodied in the minds of the people in particular, invariable, simple figures. The political references with which the people live are those of the folk song and chivalric romances. Similarly, the kinds of the period are reduced to a few types, each of which more or less correspond to a motif from song or adventure story: the noble, just prince, the prince betrayed by evil counselors, the prince as avenger of his family's honor, the prince supported by his followers during reverses in his fortune. The subjects of a late medieval state, carrying a heavy burden and being without any voice in the administration of the taxes, lived in constant apprehension that their pennies would be wasted, suspecting that they were not actually spent for the benefit and welfare of the country. This suspicion directed towards the administration of the state was transposed into the simplified notion that the king is surrounded by greedy, tricky advisers or that the ostentation and wastefulness of the royal court was to blame for the poor state of the country. Thus political questions were reduced, in the popular mind, to the typical events of a fairy tale. Philip the Good understood what sort of language would be intelligible to the people. During his festivities in the Hague in 1456 he had displayed in a room adjacent to the Knight's Hall precious utensils worth thirty thousand marks in order to impress the Dutch and Frisians who believed that he lacked the funds to take over the Bishopric of Utrecht. Everyone could come there to see this display. Moreover, two boxes containing one hundred thousand golden lions each had been brought from Lille. People were allowed to try to lift them, but in vain. Can anyone imagine a more pedagogically skillful mixture of state credit and county-fair amusement? (Chapter 1, "The Passionate Intensity of Life")

Just this is brilliant, I would love to see something like this in-game. As I wrote in an earlier post, the reality of gold (or other coins) seems most worthwhile to me.  Not that it has to be the focus or there have to be great piles of gold, but simply the physicality of it in the world.

I don't know how this could be adapted, but frankly, it doesn't seem like it needs much adaptation.  Of course, it could be re-skinned or altered easily.  I never saw anything like this in-game.  The PCs meet at a "show" put on by the local lord for adventure hooks.  "If no one can carry this chest of copper coins away, it will be given to whoever returns with..."

In general, however, it's inspirational in that it pushes me to come up with events that feel concrete to the PCs but also have the effect of making worldy power in-game feel real.  I don't think it's possible to imagine something better than what's in bold type above, but it does get you thinking. How could an NPC display wealth, power, or reward in a way that makes the world feel more concrete, rather than simply being a mechanical treat offered to the players?

1) Treasure offered as a reward, but you will have to dig it up first and help the lord identify what's there, then go on the adventure and try to earn it.

2) The aging king challenges all comers to single combat at a tournament, wagering the very weapon he wields. A PC needs to decide wheher to fight, whether to try to win, whether there is danger in winning, whether the person who just lost threw the fight to the king or lost fair. But that weapon is really very attractive, it would be hugely helpful to win it...

Of course, there are many ideas available already for how to make treasure difficult to transport, be stolen, etc. But I am trying to think of more general ways to make treasure or its possibility more grippable, more real.

[hengest]

The people could not perceive their own fates and the events of their time other than as a continuous succession of economic mishandling, exploitation, war and robbery, inflation, want, and pestilence. The chronic form that war tended to take, the constant threats to the town and the country from all kinds of dangerous riffraff, the eternal threat from a harsh and unreliable administration of justice, and on top of all this, the pressure of the fear of hell and the anxiety about devils and witches, nourished a feeling of general insecurity that tended to paint life's background in dark colors.

First of all, I think this is a great idea for a setting right here.  Enough stability that places have names and there's cultural continuity, but everyone constantly under threat from all sides.  This offers countless adventure hooks right here, as well as plausible motivations for characters to get out of town and go looking to dig up resources not only at the ancient ruin, but at the recently abandoned fort.  Has anyone taken up residence there?  

"All kinds of dangerous riffraff."  All kinds.  Mages, FMs, assorted criminals and even law-abiding types who still manage to be a danger.  The unjust lord.  Adventure hook, hired by the village to run the lord out of town.  

"A feeling of general insecurity."  Place the start of this general insecurity within living memory, so there are older folks to tell you some of what went on and how it all went wrong, their version of it.  But the younger folks are used to it, always scrambling for their place in it, never expecting anything to be stable for five days.

"The chronic form that war tended to take."  An FM in the party is actually an active-duty soldier on leave during the first adventure.  Or the first adventure is a solo assignment given to a soldier for which he recruits a couple other random locals.  

"Inflation, want, and pestilence."  All together: the cheap local coins are confusing prices for grain and no one knows what is happening.  There is a rumor that there are real gold coins from the time of our grandfathers still hidden somewhere at the ruined fort.  But no one goes there because the plague wiped everyone out and the very stones are said to make one ill.  

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Apr 11, 2021 11:08:54 GMT -5 hengest said:

Re: gold possessed in the late medieval period, Huizinga writes:

And these treasures have not yet that ghostly intangibility that modern credit procedures have bestowed on capital; it is still yellow gold itself that is in the forefront of fantasy. (Chapter 1, "The Passionate Intensity of Life")

The complete abstraction of money (gold, silver, copper) often found in fantasy RPGs is most convenient, but there is a price to be paid for this convenience.  The bare fact that material wealth could be found in the form of metal coins, real items such as a child (or anyone) would like to sift through, is a part of the history of our own world that we can access through fantasy.  And it seems to be that this is as worthwhile as the representation of magic or great physical strength.  

In relation to this, I'm leaning strongly toward divorcing XP from gaining / spending coin and combat entirely and simply to assign it in other ways.  I don't feel any strong benefit to be gained from mixing the mechanic of XP with the beauty of metal coins.  

Although I like the convenience of using gold for XP, I use a lot of other things alongside it. Amusing the referee always earns experience for example.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Apr 11, 2021 21:08:31 GMT -5 hengest said:

Certainly read at least the bold type, if not the whole paragraph.

This suspicion directed towards the administration of the state was transposed into the simplified notion that the king is surrounded by greedy, tricky advisers or that the ostentation and wastefulness of the royal court was to blame for the poor state of the country. 

While the bolded part is really good, I see this as a universal truth throughout history that plays out to the current day and is ultimately to be mined in game and a good way to set many things in motion in your game, if you have the game centered around a capital city or dealings with the nobility.

Apr 11, 2021 21:08:31 GMT -5 hengest said:

2) The aging king challenges all comers to single combat at a tournament, wagering the very weapon he wields. A PC needs to decide whether to fight, whether to try to win, whether there is danger in winning, whether the person who just lost threw the fight to the king or lost fair. But that weapon is really very attractive, it would be hugely helpful to win it...

I really like this idea, I would love to see this played out.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Apr 12, 2021 19:23:01 GMT -5 hengest said:

The people could not perceive their own fates and the events of their time other than as a continuous succession of economic mishandling, exploitation, war and robbery, inflation, want, and pestilence. The chronic form that war tended to take, the constant threats to the town and the country from all kinds of dangerous riffraff, the eternal threat from a harsh and unreliable administration of justice, and on top of all this, the pressure of the fear of hell and the anxiety about devils and witches, nourished a feeling of general insecurity that tended to paint life's background in dark colors.

First of all, I think this is a great idea for a setting right here.  Enough stability that places have names and there's cultural continuity, but everyone constantly under threat from all sides.  This offers countless adventure hooks right here, as well as plausible motivations for characters to get out of town and go looking to dig up resources not only at the ancient ruin, but at the recently abandoned fort.  Has anyone taken up residence there?  

"All kinds of dangerous riffraff."  All kinds.  Mages, FMs, assorted criminals and even law-abiding types who still manage to be a danger.  The unjust lord.  Adventure hook, hired by the village to run the lord out of town.  

"A feeling of general insecurity."  Place the start of this general insecurity within living memory, so there are older folks to tell you some of what went on and how it all went wrong, their version of it.  But the younger folks are used to it, always scrambling for their place in it, never expecting anything to be stable for five days.

"The chronic form that war tended to take."  An FM in the party is actually an active-duty soldier on leave during the first adventure.  Or the first adventure is a solo assignment given to a soldier for which he recruits a couple other random locals.  

"Inflation, want, and pestilence."  All together: the cheap local coins are confusing prices for grain and no one knows what is happening.  There is a rumor that there are real gold coins from the time of our grandfathers still hidden somewhere at the ruined fort.  But no one goes there because the plague wiped everyone out and the very stones are said to make one ill.  

I love the way you have laid this out and it is made even better because all of it rings true, because the quote is true. Despite the problems individuals have, it is all make worse by a corrupt ruling class. A constant throughout human history.

[hengest]

The third path to a better world leads through a land of dreams. It is the most comfortable, but one in which the goal remains at an unchanging distance. If earthly reality is so hopelessly miserable and the denial of the world so difficult, this leaves us to color life with lustrous tones, to live in a dreamland of shining fantasies, and to soften reality in the ecstasy of the ideal.It requires only a simple theme, a single chord, to begin the heart-stirring fugue: a glance at the dreamy bliss of a more beautiful past time suffices, one glimpse of its heroism and its virtue, or just the gay sunshine of life in nature and its enjoyment. (Chapter 2, "The Craving for a More Beautiful Life")

One, of course, this can be about gaming.

Two, one could take this a bit literally and actually use it in-game.  There is a desperate desire to get to a better (part of the) world, but the path leads through the land of dreams that no one has entered in generations.  This land of shining fantasies colored in lustrous tones is actually endless. You cannot pass through it to get to a "better world." Everyone gives up or dies there. Those who return may succumb to despair on their return to the grey world, or they may be supercharged with a vision.  

It is said that Arthur visited the Land of Dreams once.

[hengest]

In their external appearance, too, town and countryside displayed the same contrast and color. The city did not dissipate, as do our cities, into carelessly fashioned, ugly factories and monotonous country homes, but, enclosed by its walls, presented a completely rounded picture that included its innumerable protruding towers. No matter how high and weighty the stone houses of the noblemen or merchants may have been, churches with their proudly rising masses of stone, dominated the city silhouettes.

Just as the contrast between summer and winter was stronger then than in our present lives, so was the difference between light and dark, quiet and noise. The modern city hardly knows pure darkness or true silence anymore, nor does it know the effect of a small single light or that of a lonely distant shout. (Chapter 1, "The Passionate Intensity of Life")

The notion of the city complete unto itself (at least visually) is really at odds with our ideas about modern cities with their slow ooze into industrial or suburban areas. This is a beautiful idea that we can certainly use in games: it could even be (I'm sure it has) been used in brief descriptions of a city as you approach. 

I'm more interested in the second paragraph. It is certainly painfully true that our senses are exhausted. I can't think of a single person who wouldn't benefit from a month in the country (even doing hard work there). In any case, this paragraph reminds us just how great the influence of a single person can be in a time when speech still means something, when there are fewer people and cities still sleep at night.  

It would be of great benefit to me, I think, to play in a game where these things were true. 

[mao]

Apr 11, 2021 11:08:54 GMT -5 hengest said:

Re: gold possessed in the late medieval period, Huizinga writes:

And these treasures have not yet that ghostly intangibility that modern credit procedures have bestowed on capital; it is still yellow gold itself that is in the forefront of fantasy. (Chapter 1, "The Passionate Intensity of Life")

The complete abstraction of money (gold, silver, copper) often found in fantasy RPGs is most convenient, but there is a price to be paid for this convenience.  The bare fact that material wealth could be found in the form of metal coins, real items such as a child (or anyone) would like to sift through, is a part of the history of our own world that we can access through fantasy.  And it seems to be that this is as worthwhile as the representation of magic or great physical strength.  

In relation to this, I'm leaning strongly toward divorcing XP from gaining / spending coin and combat entirely and simply to assign it in other ways.  I don't feel any strong benefit to be gained from mixing the mechanic of XP with the beauty of metal coins.  

I never really liked treasure=EP

[mao]

As to the constant threat, It would make a great killer game, I sort of ran this w early days of Mysantia