sticky for overview and discussion

[hengest]

We are attracted to what seems timeless or eternal.  Speculations as to why this is so are not my focus here.

For me, this is one of the major attractions of the game and of LOTR.

As Tolkien himself said of the Silmarillion, 

I am doubtful myself about the undertaking [of making it into a publishable work]. Part of the attraction of the L.R. is, I think, due to the glimpses of a large history in the background: an attraction like that of viewing far off an unvisited island, or seeing the towers of a distant city gleaming in a sunlit mist. To go there is to destroy the magic, unless new unattainable vistas are again revealed. (Letter 257)

Once you are in it, it isn't so timeless.  As Scott McCloud wrote in the voice of Mrs. Weaver, Jenny's mother:



You grow up and being an adult isn't what you expected.  You finally talk to the little red-haired girl and it's not what you expected.  To go there is to destroy the magic. 

Not to say that gaming isn't fun.  But there are such concerns and mini-disappointments.  We look for immersion and find that it's always imperfect (although fun).  

I want to introduce an element of our most timeless tales, songs, and stories.  What lasts from one stage of culture to another because we can't let it go.  The stories that grab you from the setup.  You have to hear the rest, even though you've heard it before.  

But of course, to go there is to destroy the magic.  Gaming Rumpelstiltskin or Red Riding Hood would be a parody of gaming and a parody of the stories.  

So what if we don't go there, but just put a foot in?  What if we have our folktales in-game and let them tease and attract the PCs similar to how they tease and attract us players?  They're not central.  The PCs aren't from there.  They're in a nearby but different space.  Accessible but difficult.  Not as amenable to being changed as regular places.  They're not so subject to linear time and linear thinking.  

That's what I want to explore.

More general thoughts (comments welcome) on this thread, other threads developed as I am able.

[hengest]

Note that some classic tales have exactly this happen to the protagonist.

scene from Cinderella

"Cinderella," said the Fairy, "I am your godmother, and for the sake of your dear mamma I am come to cheer you up, so dry your tears; you shall go to the grand ball to-night, but you must do just as I bid you. Go into the garden and bring me a pumpkin." Cinderella brought the finest that was there. Her godmother scooped it out very quickly, and then struck it with her wand, upon which it was changed into a beautiful coach. Afterwards, the old lady peeped into the mouse-trap, where she found six mice. She tapped them lightly with her wand, and each mouse became a fine horse. The rat-trap contained two large rats; one of these she turned into a coachman, and the other into a postilion. The old lady then told Cinderella to go into the garden and seek for half-a-dozen lizards. These she changed into six footmen, dressed in the gayest livery.

When all these things had been done, the kind godmother touching her with her wand, changed her worn-out clothes into a beautiful ball-dress embroidered with pearls and silver. She then gave her a pair of glass slippers, that is, they were woven of the most delicate spun-glass, fine as the web of a spider.

When Cinderella was thus attired, her godmother made her get into her splendid coach, giving her a caution to leave the ball before the clock struck twelve.

Cinderella doesn't live a magical life in a magical world.  She cleans up ashes and is treated poorly.  The "fairy godmother" feels to us like a stock type with a set name that doesn't mean anything but bippity-boppity-boo.  But she represents exactly what I am talking about: contact with a deeper world than the one you live in.  Cinderella steps in and out of "fairyland" (represented by her attire and her presence at the otherwise inaccessible ball), maybe several times, depending on the version you read.  The "conclusion" of the story is when she goes to stay there permanently and marry the Prince, after which there's no more story for us.  Any continuation immediately descends into straight-to-video territory.  

But within the story itself, we see the protagonist contacted by an unexpected relation from another "realm" (godmother who is a fairy).  And that contact allows her to enter that world and disturb its narrative to her own benefit.  

Cinderella ultimately becomes part of that story, or ends the story by her success.  But what I want is for that dipping-in to be accessible.  

[The Perilous Dreamer]

I really like what you are doing here and your thoughts on this.

For me, reading the Silmarillion did not remove any of the magic for me, I read it once and will not read it again. Now all these years later, when I read The Hobbit or the LotR, it is still like reading it the first time. I think I am odd that way. For me, while

The "fairy godmother" feels to us like a stock type with a set name that doesn't mean anything but bippity-boppity-boo.

is exactly that for most, for me it is "magic" and evokes, even now, the same sense of wonder as the first time I was told (not read) the story. Even now, I sometimes wonder why my "fairy godmother" hasn't arrived yet.

[hengest]

That is very noteworthy, The Perilous Dreamer , about your experience of Cinderella. For me it always felt "blah" or just "nothingy" until I realized (well into adulthood) that it must be a combination of

• the notion of a godparent as a significant figure (a second parent, really) and 
• the notion of a kind of "fairy connection" (fairy wife among others) that gets one out of the drab world of labor, humiliation, etc.

What's interesting about this one is that the idea of a godparent is Christian, while the idea of a fairy is not anti-Christian, but is usually associated with a pre-Christian set of expectations about the world and its denizens.  So having a fairy godmother suggests that the person is unambiguously Christian (in Europe during the centuries when this story took its current form, Christian is an entirely "normal" and "unremarkable" thing to be), but has some kind of other inheritance as well.

[hengest]

The Perilous Dreamer Neglected to say above that your understanding of the fairy godmother and expectations about her seem to have set up up well for reffing and gaming.  Well, you would know better than I would, but maybe.  I like that you were told that story rather than reading it.  I don't do so well with telling stories orally.  I "edit" on the fly until it becomes almost an abstraction.  

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Mar 3, 2021 20:22:51 GMT -5 hengest said:

That is very noteworthy, The Perilous Dreamer , about your experience of Cinderella. For me it always felt "blah" or just "nothingy" until I realized (well into adulthood) that it must be a combination of

• the notion of a godparent as a significant figure (a second parent, really) and 
• the notion of a kind of "fairy connection" (fairy wife among others) that gets one out of the drab world of labor, humiliation, etc.

What's interesting about this one is that the idea of a godparent is Christian, while the idea of a fairy is not anti-Christian, but is usually associated with a pre-Christian set of expectations about the world and its denizens.  So having a fairy godmother suggests that the person is unambiguously Christian (in Europe during the centuries when this story took its current form, Christian is an entirely "normal" and "unremarkable" thing to be), but has some kind of other inheritance as well.

In a lot of fiction (Poul Anderson, a writer I love ) the stories assume that Christianity not only erases the old ways of worship and belief, but that it erases the culture as well. While some cultures do have great evil as their heart and soul, most do not and I think that the erasing of the good parts of cultures only happens if you are jumping the shark. In my case I think about the late 50s and early 60s when I still believed in Santa Claus, when I found out he did not really exist, it did not really change anything for me, I still believe in my  conception of Santa Claus. For a very brief while I believed in the Tooth Fairy, on the other hand I never believed in the Easter Bunny at all that I can remember. But I grew up with two parents who were still steeped in the oral tradition. My dad made up stories of his own devising and many were stories of real people and things that really happened that were often/usually funny too. He also told folk tales and fairy tales and such. My mom told stories too mainly folk, fairy tales, myth and legend. They both also read to us. I was grounded very early in the differences between the real world and the realm of fantasy. I preferred the realm of fantasy and spent a lot of time there as I was growing up.

For me, any child deprived of the folk lore, fairy tales, myth and legend of their heritage(s) is a tragedy. If I were in charge of education, K, 1 and 2 would be centered around folk lore, fairy tales, myth and legend and play. Reading and counting would be taught in an informal manner through these things. In 3rd grade we would be down to academics. (By 3rd grade, eye hand coordination would be more naturally ready to learn both printing and cursive. But I would incorporate a lot more play into school up through at least the 7th or 8th grade than any school I know of does.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Mar 3, 2021 20:27:07 GMT -5 hengest said:

The Perilous Dreamer Neglected to say above that your understanding of the fairy godmother and expectations about her seem to have set up up well for reffing and gaming.  Well, you would know better than I would, but maybe.  I like that you were told that story rather than reading it.  I don't do so well with telling stories orally.  I "edit" on the fly until it becomes almost an abstraction.  

I think telling children stories is very important as well as teaching them the stories. I think kids should be encouraged to learn and tell stories. I can take kids that already have their hand welded to a smart phone and engage them in a story. While I understand kids need to learn the tech early for today's world, I also believe that the amount of exposure should be limited so that other important things can be part of their lives.

[hengest]

Mar 3, 2021 20:48:44 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

I think telling children stories is very important as well as teaching them the stories. I think kids should be encouraged to learn and tell stories. I can take kids that already have their hand welded to a smart phone and engage them in a story. While I understand kids need to learn the tech early for today's world, I also believe that the amount of exposure should be limited so that other important things can be part of their lives.

I quite agree and am trying to relax and use my verbal ability in a less controlled manner, focusing on the material and (in person) the connection between the speaker and hearer, although it is difficult for me.  I could say more, but probably not so necessary for this thread.

[hengest]

Mar 3, 2021 20:44:48 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

Mar 3, 2021 20:22:51 GMT -5 hengest said:

In a lot of fiction (Poul Anderson, a writer I love ) the stories assume that Christianity not only erases the old ways of worship and belief, but that it erases the culture as well. While some cultures do have great evil as their heart and soul, most do not and I think that the erasing of the good parts of cultures only happens if you are jumping the shark. In my case I think about the late 50s and early 60s when I still believed in Santa Claus, when I found out he did not really exist, it did not really change anything for me, I still believe in my  conception of Santa Claus. For a very brief while I believed in the Tooth Fairy, on the other hand I never believed in the Easter Bunny at all that I can remember. But I grew up with two parents who were still steeped in the oral tradition. My dad made up stories of his own devising and many were stories of real people and things that really happened that were often/usually funny too. He also told folk tales and fairy tales and such. My mom told stories too mainly folk, fairy tales, myth and legend. They both also read to us. I was grounded very early in the differences between the real world and the realm of fantasy. I preferred the realm of fantasy and spent a lot of time there as I was growing up.


For me, any child deprived of the folk lore, fairy tales, myth and legend of their heritage(s) is a tragedy. If I were in charge of education, K, 1 and 2 would be centered around folk lore, fairy tales, myth and legend and play. Reading and counting would be taught in an informal manner through these things. In 3rd grade we would be down to academics. (By 3rd grade, eye hand coordination would be more naturally ready to learn both printing and cursive. But I would incorporate a lot more play into school up through at least the 7th or 8th grade than any school I know of does.

1) Have an Exalt for this.

2) When I was a kid I had a large (to me) volume of the Grimm tales with a few illustrations (really a book for adult or adolescent readers, I think).  I could not approach it when I first had it.  At some point I gave it a try when home sick from school (I think) and then instantly absorbed as many stories as I could.  I was hungry for them.  The stories there were translations of edits of transcripts and still some of the glory peeked through.  I could not have explained what I loved about those stories.  I still couldn't now, although I could fake it but there is no reason to fake it.

I feel that I was deprived of my family's oral heritage for reasons that were not at all good.  I think there were some powerful joke-tellers and story-tellers and I was exposed to just a smidgen of all that.  There was one member of the family who seems to have been particularly talented.  I only ever got his stories second-hand in retellings and they still made me laugh myself sick.  I did visit him as an adult after he had a stroke and was in a care facility.  He had recovered his speech by that time but was having other problems.  Although I barely knew him, I could still see more than a little of the personality and talent that he had for verbal interaction.  Not getting to know him better is one of my major family regrets.

I had a person in my immediately family who I believe was talented in a similar way, but who (as it seems to me) squashed that talent except when he forgot to.  I think the reason was his artificial belief that only writing or "high art" were acceptable.

Some people have said that they think I have a way with words or some such.  I do not exactly see it, but I do notice that it comes out more (and I get more comments) about the speeches I give without thinking in times of high "activation" but not anger.  Regardless of native talent, it is underdeveloped in me and even the degree to which it is developed is largely wasted these days in our times of no one ever seeing anyone (even before the pandemic).  

The most powerful writing is a version of the strongest oral speech.  Maybe edited, maybe channeled to a specific purpose, but always based in the experience of a person interacting directly with other people.  

I allow myself to say all this on this thread because the thread is for general discussion of fairy tales and by extension oral traditions.  

[hengest]

The Perilous Dreamer Also, PD, I did not fully follow about jumping the shark, and unfortunately I have not read Anderson.  But I am familiar with that idea from pop culture (possibly in works that swiped it from him).  I have heard regret from people who represent Christian traditions (I am thinking of clergy) about good things that were deliberately wiped out by missionaries simply because of the association with non-Christian practices. 

Unfortunately, many people are inclined to what I call imperial thinking, and that kind of thinking often likes to purge everything it does not understand.  Regardless of whether the excuse is religion or something else, the result is the same, a levelling of culture and a major loss for everyone.

[hengest]

For anyone interested, the fairy tale project is not on hold. I am still digesting my own conception and am hesitant to post a lot for the moment. I am thinking about working towards a stand-alone PDF for some of this material. So, more posts will happen.

[mao]

I haven't read that much of this yet(I intend to read it all) but I wanted to share an idea with you. I have thought of character classes like Noble Prince and Maiden fair(later becoming good wife). Those are the only 2 I have come up with so far.

[hengest]

Thanks mao, that's a great idea.

Just to save you time, if you actually want to read this, the "world types" thread is the most recent workup of the world material. It has edited and expanded versions of whst was in "incorporating fairy tales."

[hengest]

[hengest]

Mar 17, 2021 3:48:10 GMT -5 mao said:

I haven't read that much of this yet(I intend to read it all) but I wanted to share an idea with you. I have thought of character classes like Noble Prince and Maiden fair(later becoming good wife). Those are the only 2 I have come up with so far.

I still love this idea, mao . I'm not sure what I would do with it or just where it would go. A kind of NPC class? 

It's really a beautiful idea and is in harmony with what I was up to with the fairy tale stuff. Without going kitschy, I wanted there to be a way for PCs to interact with the 'energy' and the 'forms' of fairy tales -- or even to walk further in that direction.

[mao]

Sept 21, 2023 13:42:56 GMT -5 hengest said:

Mar 17, 2021 3:48:10 GMT -5 mao said:

I haven't read that much of this yet(I intend to read it all) but I wanted to share an idea with you. I have thought of character classes like Noble Prince and Maiden fair(later becoming good wife). Those are the only 2 I have come up with so far.

I still love this idea, mao . I'm not sure what I would do with it or just where it would go. A kind of NPC class? 

It's really a beautiful idea and is in harmony with what I was up to with the fairy tale stuff. Without going kitschy, I wanted there to be a way for PCs to interact with the 'energy' and the 'forms' of fairy tales -- or even to walk further in that direction.

Give ms a little more of your idea of this and which one were you talking about

[mao]

Sept 21, 2023 13:42:56 GMT -5 hengest said:

Mar 17, 2021 3:48:10 GMT -5 mao said:

I haven't read that much of this yet(I intend to read it all) but I wanted to share an idea with you. I have thought of character classes like Noble Prince and Maiden fair(later becoming good wife). Those are the only 2 I have come up with so far.

I still love this idea, mao . I'm not sure what I would do with it or just where it would go. A kind of NPC class? 

It's really a beautiful idea and is in harmony with what I was up to with the fairy tale stuff. Without going kitschy, I wanted there to be a way for PCs to interact with the 'energy' and the 'forms' of fairy tales -- or even to walk further in that direction.

Give the maiden the ability to answer yes and no questions at the rate of 1 per level but otherwise she can't access the knowlege