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Post by hengest on Feb 26, 2021 21:41:46 GMT -5
Thought: humans can change areas as described above. More to think about with that. Dragons are natives of area X (say, around D&D level) but who have magical and cognitive advantages in both "directions," not necessarily to the same degree in both directions. Let's say a vanilla D&D area is, as above, around 3.3. Every local who is not a transplant is at this level. For humans and humanoids, magic, politics, and being smooth work in familiar ways. 1) A [-1, +1] dragon, although apparently a local in the 3.3, would operate with the "advantages" of 2.3 and 4.3: relative to the locals, the dragon has much deeper power and understanding, roughly equivalent to the understanding implicit in the locals' deepest songs, stories, and cultural understandings, but all bound up in one creature. He understands and can manipulate consciously what the locals are lucky to get a glimpse of in their most insightful dreams. At the same time, the dragon has the "machine-mind" powers of a 4.3, say the best science of the mid-late medieval period. That, too, he can control consciously, at will. 2) A [-1.5, +.5] dragon in the same 3.3 region would operate as a magical / insight 1.8, deeper than the deepest tales and heading towards the truths that most artists and poets couldn't approach in a bathysphere, but also as a 3.8, significantly ahead of the locals in "modern" thought. Dragons, or some dragons, might always have the same modifiers relative to their locale, although cross-region travel is difficult for them. For a crude example, dragon 1 above, if he travelled to a hidden and very deep 1.5 area would have effective values of .5 and 2.5, giving him access to an rich and awful kind of power and wisdom while he can still function as a superlegendary kind of fairy tale creature, which, for that locale, is exceptionally "modern" and "clockwork." In other words, dragons are distinctive in at least the first of these two ways: - they are by their nature at a remove from their locale in two directions
- they are less able to travel, but maintain their "distance," allowing some of them to approach the "source" sometimes for unfathomable purposes...while the same dragons' positive "modifier" ay allow them to do something with that power or wisdom in a higher-numbered area.
[Note: I realized halfway through this that my dragon-notation was likely inspired by the notation for describing the various " riders" in chess and chess variants, although the idea is only sort of related, and also a bit inspired by the notation for defining polytopes in however many dimensions. I suppose both these things have been on my mind, and are probably inspirations for this dragon-post.]
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Feb 26, 2021 22:57:46 GMT -5
Thought: humans can change areas as described above. More to think about with that. Dragons are natives of area X (say, around D&D level) but who have magical and cognitive advantages in both "directions," not necessarily to the same degree in both directions. Let's say a vanilla D&D area is, as above, around 3.3. Every local who is not a transplant is at this level. For humans and humanoids, magic, politics, and being smooth work in familiar ways. 1) A [-1, +1] dragon, although apparently a local in the 3.3, would operate with the "advantages" of 2.3 and 4.3: relative to the locals, the dragon has much deeper power and understanding, roughly equivalent to the Now this is where I can see somewhat how it works in game, because this does explain a lot about how I run my dragons as both effectively immortal (though kill-able, especially in the younger forms) and elemental powers. The middle dragon phase where they first have the dragon shape, they are (roughly) [-0.5, +0.5] and as the approach their second cocoon phase prior to becoming adult dragons this dichotomy grows (slightly difference for each dragon. Once the dragon passes to the adult phase the dichotomy grows for each dragon some becoming very extreme. Some very old ancient dragons 2-5 hundred thousand years old and up may approach [-3.0,] on the low end. The older the dragon becomes past that point the more they start to lose the mundane end and become even more magical, retaining just enough of the mundane end to retain more control than you would expect. Does that make any sense?
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Post by hengest on Feb 27, 2021 11:55:44 GMT -5
The Perilous DreamerYes, it does make sense. I have wanted to read more about your dragons. I have been thinking about these in a somewhat different direction (I think), but I do see how the system proposed here fits yours, as well. And the math is all over my head from the start but I do love the idea of the higher dimensions.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Feb 27, 2021 15:03:32 GMT -5
The Perilous Dreamer Yes, it does make sense. I have wanted to read more about your dragons. I have been thinking about these in a somewhat different direction (I think), but I do see how the system proposed here fits yours, as well. And the math is all over my head from the start but I do love the idea of the higher dimensions. I like to think about infinity and and infinite parallel worlds in every "direction" of if. My dragons are found here. That is what I have posted so far.
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Post by hengest on Feb 27, 2021 15:09:27 GMT -5
I like to think about infinity and and infinite parallel worlds in every "direction" of if. My dragons are found here. That is what I have posted so far. That's right, I read that a couple years ago. Will review, thanks for the link. It's funny how trying to incorporate fairy tales led me to dragons. I guess it had to happen.
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dragons
Feb 27, 2021 15:48:26 GMT -5
Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Feb 27, 2021 15:48:26 GMT -5
That's right, I read that a couple years ago. Will review, thanks for the link. It's funny how trying to incorporate fairy tales led me to dragons. I guess it had to happen. They are one of the ultimate fairy land creatures are they not.
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Post by hengest on Feb 27, 2021 17:26:20 GMT -5
Let's say this, just to hold the thought here, although it doesn't perfectly fit with the rest of the thread:
for locals to perceive a dragon as a dragon, the dragon's "effective range" has to bookend the range of the land and locals. So a 2 to 4 dragon is seen as a dragon in a 3 area, but not in a 4.2 area.
(I suppose some have a fixed range not hitched to the local number.)
A dragon whose range all falls below the local number (a 1 to 3 dragon in a 3.5 area) is perceived as a somewhat personified (?) landscape feature, lake, canyon, something like that. May depend on the numbers involved.
A dragon whose range all falls above the local number (a 2.9 to 4.1 in a 2.7) is perceived as an artifact. Not necessarily a magical artifact, but something obviously not natural.
Details to follow.
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Post by hengest on Feb 27, 2021 17:37:14 GMT -5
Not to my knowledge, apart from the general notion of dragons as elemental creatures, important, exceptional. I suppose there's a hint of inspiration in LeGuin's Earthsea books, where it's said that the "Old Speech" (I think) is used by human for magical purposes, but they can't lie in it. But dragons can lie while speaking it because it's their native tongue. So I guess in a way that is consistent with my idea here that the minus value of a dragon gives it "roots" that people can't access very well.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Feb 27, 2021 18:13:56 GMT -5
Let's say this, just to hold the thought here, although it doesn't perfectly fit with the rest of the thread: for locals to perceive a dragon as a dragon, the dragon's "effective range" has to bookend the range of the land and locals. So a 2 to 4 dragon is seen as a dragon in a 3 area, but not in a 4.2 area. (I suppose some have a fixed range not hitched to the local number.) A dragon whose range all falls below the local number (a 1 to 3 dragon in a 3.5 area) is perceived as a somewhat personified (?) landscape feature, lake, canyon, something like that. May depend on the numbers involved. A dragon whose range all falls above the local number (a 2.9 to 4.1 in a 2.7) is perceived as an artifact. Not necessarily a magical artifact, but something obviously not natural. Details to follow. That is a curious concept, looking for those details before I comment further.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Feb 27, 2021 18:15:27 GMT -5
Not to my knowledge, apart from the general notion of dragons as elemental creatures, important, exceptional. I suppose there's a hint of inspiration in LeGuin's Earthsea books, where it's said that the "Old Speech" (I think) is used by human for magical purposes, but they can't lie in it. But dragons can lie while speaking it because it's their native tongue. So I guess in a way that is consistent with my idea here that the minus value of a dragon gives it "roots" that people can't access very well. I thought that was really an important feature that humans could not lie when speaking the "Old Speech" and IIRC you are right it was used by human for magical purposes.
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Post by hengest on Feb 27, 2021 22:33:34 GMT -5
The Perilous DreamerI'm not 100% sure about this myself. I like something about this idea but I think the execution (such as it was) was not harmonious. I like the idea of having a "Ranged" creature be somehow inaccessible if it doesn't overlap with the local "conditions." I suppose a somewhat better idea is if the creature's range doesn't overlap, it's less visible, visible only as the "near end" of its range. Example would be...3.3 area, 1.3 to 2.2 dragon. Only the 2.2 "aspect" of the dragon should be "visible" at all. What would that mean? In some fairy tales there are "encounters" that can be replayed by different characters -- for example, a girl and her stepsister both encounter the same fairy and behave well or poorly with the fairy in this story. They are rewarded or punished accordingly. Perhaps a 2.2 dragon would be not magically visible but practically inaccessible except in some such form that locals (or the occasional local) can access in a ritualistic way. A voice that speaks from a well and may answer a formulaic question. The "rest" of the dragon would be "behind" that aspect and so totally inaccessible to the locals. Clearly, here I am influenced by (again, amateurish) ideas of the higher dimensions, where 3D creatures can see only "part" of a 4D object as it intersects their space.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Feb 27, 2021 23:05:20 GMT -5
I suppose a somewhat better idea is if the creature's range doesn't overlap, it's less visible, visible only as the "near end" of its range. Example would be...3.3 area, 1.3 to 2.2 dragon. Only the 2.2 "aspect" of the dragon should be "visible" at all. Perhaps a 2.2 dragon would be not magically visible but practically inaccessible except in some such form that locals (or the occasional local) can access in a ritualistic way. A voice that speaks from a well and may answer a formulaic question. The "rest" of the dragon would be "behind" that aspect and so totally inaccessible to the locals. I like this, it has quite a bit on ingenuity. One is that it could dovetail into the way that I handle artifacts. 1. You cannot posses an artifact, they stay or go as they please. 2. They often have their own agenda or purpose. 3. If you want them to stay, they go and if you want them to go they stay. I posted something about artifacts recently and now I cannot locate it at all. In some fairy tales there are "encounters" that can be replayed by different characters -- for example, a girl and her stepsister both encounter the same fairy and behave well or poorly with the fairy in this story. They are rewarded or punished accordingly.[.quote] I like these kind of fairy tales, I think these are one of the best types of fairy tales.
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Post by hengest on Feb 27, 2021 23:38:43 GMT -5
The Perilous DreamerI like that about artifacts, share the link please if you find it. Using the dragons this way seems doable and also relatively easy since you probably would never need to plan more than a couple, as they are rare. I want to have a more settled system to hang it on, though. These posts aren't quite all of a piece.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Feb 28, 2021 1:52:04 GMT -5
The Perilous Dreamer I like that about artifacts, share the link please if you find it. Using the dragons this way seems doable and also relatively easy since you probably would never need to plan more than a couple, as they are rare. I want to have a more settled system to hang it on, though. These posts aren't quite all of a piece. The gist of what I posted about artifacts is above, I just can't figure out what happened to that other post, I can't even find the thread I thought it was in.
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