(wow, first time I had to change a title)

[mao]

We need to keep spreading the word, one thing that the Ruins has taught me is the contributions to our hobby and how much we need to thank Dave Arnson. I really never gave it any thought, I just followed the party line of Gary and TSR. I never gave it a second thought, now I', thinking that all the core concepts are Dave's and Gary doesn't deserve credit for anything, but being Dave's editor(which he did not do a very good job of). 

[The Perilous Dreamer]

In today's world I don't think I would use that word. 

I think most of the core concepts are Dave's but Gary also added quite a bit to the finished product too. Yes, Gary needed editing help, which he did not have at the time of OD&D and later when Kask joined TSR I was not all that enthused with his editing. Oh he was good with grammar and spelling, but not so good with the soul of the product IMO. But let's not criticize Gary more than he deserves. In fact one thing that we know he did, I greatly preferred and that was replacing a lot of Dave's percentile rolls with d20 rolls. But then in Greyhawk, he backslid and brought back in a lot of percentile rolls. I am not a fan of percentile rolls. But the core concepts are Arneson and the mechanics are largely Gygax. To be fair to Gygax, I sometimes prefer his mechanics to Arnesons's. Not to say that I do not think that there were some good things that Gygax dropped, because I am sure if we had all the information we would find that to be true. I also prefer the Vancian magic system to Arneson's system which is a bit to fiddly to suit my taste. But over all I would not say that Gygax did a bad job with OD&D, I think he did a good job and obviously a good enough job.

I think the only think that would have helped would have been if Arneson would have had the money to own 50% of TSR and Gygax 25% and Don Kaye 25%. At the time of the startup and then second if Don Kaye had lived another 40 years. And third if they had all had the foresight to never allow the Blumes to have a seat at the table.  When Arneson had the best idea, Kaye would have supported him and when Gygax had the best idea, Kaye would have persuaded Arneson. At least this is my opinion. I would trust Kuntz if he told me this would not have worked out, but I really can't think of anyone else that is still around that was there first hand that knows enough to be entitled to shoot down someone's opinion. For those that came in later on, their opinion is really not worth more than anyone else's. A lot of people would trust Kask on this, but I would not for the simple reason that his very vocal and well known hate of Arneson makes him IMO an unreliable source.

[youngbuck]

Feb 11, 2021 15:35:32 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

In today's world I don't think I would use that word. 

I think most of the core concepts are Dave's but Gary also added quite a bit to the finished product too. Yes, Gary needed editing help, which he did not have at the time of OD&D and later when Kask joined TSR I was not all that enthused with his editing. Oh he was good with grammar and spelling, but not so good with the soul of the product IMO. But let's not criticize Gary more than he deserves. In fact one thing that we know he did, I greatly preferred and that was replacing a lot of Dave's percentile rolls with d20 rolls. But then in Greyhawk, he backslid and brought back in a lot of percentile rolls. I am not a fan of percentile rolls. But the core concepts are Arneson and the mechanics are largely Gygax. To be fair to Gygax, I sometimes prefer his mechanics to Arnesons's. Not to say that I do not think that there were some good things that Gygax dropped, because I am sure if we had all the information we would find that to be true. I also prefer the Vancian magic system to Arneson's system which is a bit to fiddly to suit my taste. But over all I would not say that Gygax did a bad job with OD&D, I think he did a good job and obviously a good enough job.

I think the only think that would have helped would have been if Arneson would have had the money to own 50% of TSR and Gygax 25% and Don Kaye 25%. At the time of the startup and then second if Don Kaye had lived another 40 years. And third if they had all had the foresight to never allow the Blumes to have a seat at the table.  When Arneson had the best idea, Kaye would have supported him and when Gygax had the best idea, Kaye would have persuaded Arneson. At least this is my opinion. I would trust Kuntz if he told me this would not have worked out, but I really can't think of anyone else that is still around that was there first hand that knows enough to be entitled to shoot down someone's opinion. For those that came in later on, their opinion is really not worth more than anyone else's. A lot of people would trust Kask on this, but I would not for the simple reason that his very vocal and well known hate of Arneson makes him IMO an unreliable source.

Yeah, with cancel culture and the g o v you do not want to use that word, it is dangerous these days.

PD, I think you are on target about the game. The more I read, the more I respect Arneson.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

I think you are right with the reasons not to use that word.

Glad to hear that you are learning respect for Arneson. He really did get the ball rolling, he and David Wesely.

[Admin Pete]

Feb 11, 2021 10:22:54 GMT -5 mao said:

We need to keep spreading the word, one thing that the Ruins has taught me is the contributions to our hobby and how much we need to thank Dave Arnson. I really never gave it any thought, I just followed the party line of Gary and TSR. I never gave it a second thought, now I', thinking that all the core concepts are Dave's and Gary doesn't deserve credit for anything, but being Dave's editor(which he did not do a very good job of). 

I think it should read "I've been Cured here" or "I've been Healed here" or something along those lines.

[Mighty Darci]

You changed a title, what did you say? PM me.

[hengest]

I am not as informed as I want to be, but I am beginning to see the Gary / Dave contributions (not to dismiss the many other contributors) as something like Lennon / McCartney. Both strong in their own right, but the places where their contributions blend and get sifted into each other are, to my mind, really strong and attractive.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Mar 2, 2021 18:55:40 GMT -5 hengest said:

I am not as informed as I want to be, but I am beginning to see the Gary / Dave contributions (not to dismiss the many other contributors) as something like Lennon / McCartney. Both strong in their own right, but the places where their contributions blend and get sifted into each other are, to my mind, really strong and attractive.

Great analogy! I think you have it right.