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Post by mao on Feb 9, 2021 6:03:27 GMT -5
Ok this should start some lively debate.
AS I was reading TPDs game thread this morning, I had a sudden thought. If say he has a group of ruffians assault us in town, how do you actually justify this act if you say you are running a non-railroading game. Doesn't it have premeditation. You have to have a chart or a preplaned idea that such an encounter exists. Now I am not saying there is no difference( not saying that this example favors one or the other between open and railroad I am saying that they are both like cats, but one is a house cat and one is a lion.( only making a comparison not saying that either is superior, they are just a choice on the radically different scale.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Feb 9, 2021 12:43:14 GMT -5
Ok this should start some lively debate. AS I was reading TPDs game thread this morning, I had a sudden thought. If say he has a group of ruffians assault us in town, how do you actually justify this act if you say you are running a non-railroading game. Doesn't it have premeditation. You have to have a chart or a preplaned idea that such an encounter exists. Now I am not saying there is no difference( not saying that this example favors one or the other between open and railroad I am saying that they are both like cats, but one is a house cat and one is a lion.( only making a comparison not saying that either is superior, they are just a choice on the radically different scale. A group of ruffians is something that you would normally expect to find in a town. So if you choose to walk down a dark alley late at night and end up being assaulted it is not a railroad, it is poor decision making on your part. During other times you have the option of not looking like victims and thus not drawing the active attention of said ruffians. But the other thing is that being assaulted by ruffians would not be a planned encounter, such an occurrence would be a random encounter and by definition would not be a railroad item. Now a railroad would be if you knew that ruffians hung out in a certain area and I forced you to go there and gave you no option to avoid the area, now that would be a railroad. On the other hand, thank you for the ideas, and now we will have to pay attention to when and where you are out and about, so that I can check for the random encounter.
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Post by mao on Feb 10, 2021 5:18:55 GMT -5
World building is inherently railroading( I think this is my point)
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Feb 10, 2021 12:01:39 GMT -5
World building is inherently railroading( I think this is my point) I could not disagree with you more, I do not think there is any railroading in World Building, unless you have designed your world so that the characters cannot go from point A to point X without first having went to point B, point C, point D , etc first. If your world forces the players to go in a specific order and they are powerless to determine their own order, then yeah, it is a railroad, but if they can determine their own order and where they go, then no it is not a railroad.
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Post by Death Even XIII on Feb 10, 2021 13:25:30 GMT -5
I think you need to define railroading. My definition is when the DM takes choice away from the players. It does not matter if he is spoon feeding them and making death impossible and success certain or if he does the exact opposite and kills them and success was never on the table. That to me is railroading.
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Post by ripx187 on Feb 11, 2021 12:32:24 GMT -5
Railroading, I think, is only a thing when the players become frustrated and don't feel that they have any decisions to make. Predetermined outcomes, a DM who stops the game to play something else during the game (such as a large battle that the players aren't involved in), NPCs that dominate the scene, big epic scenes that have no interaction of any kind.
The DM keeping the game moving because the players aren't sure what they should be doing, or setting a pace to place pressure on the group to make a scene more exciting, this is how the game is played.
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Post by ripx187 on Feb 11, 2021 13:01:35 GMT -5
I feel that it always goes back to being able to interact with what is going on. If the party finds themselves pitted against a super intelligent creature, they are going to find themselves on a railroad. The creature is going to have them chasing shadows, tricking them to complete its objectives, and leading them where it wants them to go. Being able to spot the railroad and finding a way off of it at the right time takes skill. This is a classic game which is a fan favorite, as long as the players have lots of stuff to figure out and interact with, it is fun.
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Post by youngbuck on Feb 21, 2021 17:47:13 GMT -5
I feel that it always goes back to being able to interact with what is going on. If the party finds themselves pitted against a super intelligent creature, they are going to find themselves on a railroad. The creature is going to have them chasing shadows, tricking them to complete its objectives, and leading them where it wants them to go. Being able to spot the railroad and finding a way off of it at the right time takes skill. This is a classic game which is a fan favorite, as long as the players have lots of stuff to figure out and interact with, it is fun. I started with 5E and pretty solid firm tracks in the game. I did not like it at all and quit playing, but the idea of the game intrigued me and I decided that the D&D could not possibly have started with railroad bitd or it would never have been popular to began with, so I started searching for the origins of the game and I ended up here. I'm 20 and for me, tracks are a deal breaker. Unless, it is the situation you outline here. That would be a challenge because we have the option of outsmarting the SIC by trying to find his blind spot and using it against him. But a real railroad you have no hope of making a decision that counts. That is a deal breaker.
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Post by Gawaine on Feb 24, 2021 16:12:42 GMT -5
Railroads exist to be de-railed and disrupted, not by being an obvious jerk, but by constant subtle things.
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Post by hengest on Feb 25, 2021 22:18:38 GMT -5
I know it's well-known, but this link seems relevant as ever: hackslashmaster.blogspot.com/2011/09/on-slaying-quantum-ogre.html"The outcome of a situation in play should never be predetermined—one cannot decide ahead of time how the choice a player makes will play out, otherwise the player has no input and is therefore not engaged." My paraphrase: you can offer whatever, but the players have to a have meaningful choices. Not perfect freedom from any input, suggestion, or adventure hooks.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Feb 26, 2021 2:55:21 GMT -5
I know it's well-known, but this link seems relevant as ever: hackslashmaster.blogspot.com/2011/09/on-slaying-quantum-ogre.html"The outcome of a situation in play should never be predetermined—one cannot decide ahead of time how the choice a player makes will play out, otherwise the player has no input and is therefore not engaged." My paraphrase: you can offer whatever, but the players have to a have meaningful choices. Not perfect freedom from any input, suggestion, or adventure hooks. Meaningful choice is a must. Also since the heart of OD&D and IMO all roleplaying games is improvisation, the first rule of improvisation which is in the linked article although not noted as a rule is this, "Say Yes. . . or Say Yes, But. . ." In any improvisation bit a "No" ends the scene so for it to succeed as the Referee you never say "NO" you "Say Yes. . . or Say Yes, But. . . or Say Any Number of Things Which Is Not A No And Gives Options."
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