Differences between printings of Classic Traveller?

[ampleframework]

I've been told there are two or maybe three distinct different versions of the original Traveller box set. Is this so? I managed to snag a free copy of the pdfs of the 1983 printing a couple of years ago during Free RPG Day. I've been told by many, however, that the true Classic Traveller experience is the original printing from 1977 and that there are several differences of note. 

Does anyone here have any strong opinions on that? Is the version I have classic enough to count as Classic Traveller or is it an insidious pretender to the throne? What are the inherent strengths and weaknesses of the 1983 black booklets? I know little about Traveller but am looking to familiarize myself with a version of it. I should note that my current gaming ideology is to gravitate towards the earliest/simplest version of a concept or rules set and build from there, when possible. 

[The Perilous Dreamer]

I am going to bring this to the attention of our Traveller players and ref.

[erisred]

May 4, 2020 14:30:45 GMT -5 ampleframework said:

I've been told there are two or maybe three distinct different versions of the original Traveller box set. Is this so? I managed to snag a free copy of the pdfs of the 1983 printing a couple of years ago during Free RPG Day. I've been told by many, however, that the true Classic Traveller experience is the original printing from 1977 and that there are several differences of note. 

Does anyone here have any strong opinions on that? Is the version I have classic enough to count as Classic Traveller or is it an insidious pretender to the throne? What are the inherent strengths and weaknesses of the 1983 black booklets? I know little about Traveller but am looking to familiarize myself with a version of it. I should note that my current gaming ideology is to gravitate towards the earliest/simplest version of a concept or rules set and build from there, when possible. 

Hi there ampleframework!

I've been "Travelling" since 1977, so I can answer your factual questions and give an opinion about other stuff, but you'll have to make up your mind on those parts.

There are two editions of Classic Traveller different enough to count as different versions. The original 1977 version and the later 1983 version. There are also "Duluxe Traveller",  "The Traveller Book" and "Starter Traveller" editions. These are sort of a transition from 77 to 83's versions rules wise and also different from 77 and 83 in form and format. Also keep in mind that from 77 through 81 Mercenary, High Guard, Intro to Traveller and Scouts(?) came out which added to, and changed, what we got in the original 3 LBB's from 1977.

I'll point out 3 big differences:

1. The damage done by weapons changed between 77 and 83. In 77 damage was dice +/- a number, which really made no sense when you had to apply that damage to the characteristics die by die, rather than all together. In 83 the rules use just a number of die for weapon damage, which works as a group on first hit and die by die on subsequent hits...much more clear, and IMO better than 77. However!!! The 77 method allows for a much finer differentiation of weapons (say between Auto Pistol and Revolver) than 83 does.

2. Ship Encounter, Trade Route tables  and things like Red and Amber zones were either different or dropped/added. I think in large part because... 

3. The "Imperium Setting" got written into the rules. I think that started about 81 or 82. Things in 77 were much more make up your own setting...which I did. I remember getting more and more frustrated with the Journal articles and the books getting more and more Imperium centered.  

Now opinion.  Sure the 83 edition is Classic Traveller! If you can find 77 books, you can borrow anything there that you'd like to add to what you have. Frankly, I've stolen borrowed <g> from every version I've every come across since 77:, 83, TTB, MT, TNE, T4, T20, MgT, and the, not really Traveller, Cepheus Engine, too! If you haven't yet, I recommend you go get a copy of  (free/cheap) Cepheus just to mine for ideas.

These days, I pretty much run a very light version of Cepheus for rules with some things from 77/83 LBB's added. Sometimes I play in the OTU, but mostly it's in one or another of TU's that I came up with. 

[ampleframework]

Thank you for your thoughtful and thorough reply, erisred. That does help me quite a bit. So, what you've told me in a nutshell is that '83 Traveller is Classic enough, and as good a starting point as any. It sounds like the changes between the various editions are, perhaps, more a matter of personal preference than anything monumental. Not as big a deal as, say, different editions of D&D for sure. I do plan on playing in one or two games before deciding to actually referee one, so perhaps that will give me the opportunity to sample different flavors.

[erisred]

May 5, 2020 16:47:08 GMT -5 ampleframework said:

Thank you for your thoughtful and thorough reply, erisred. That does help me quite a bit. So, what you've told me in a nutshell is that '83 Traveller is Classic enough, and as good a starting point as any. It sounds like the changes between the various editions are, perhaps, more a matter of personal preference than anything monumental. Not as big a deal as, say, different editions of D&D for sure. I do plan on playing in one or two games before deciding to actually referee one, so perhaps that will give me the opportunity to sample different flavors.

Yes, that's what I was saying...only much more long winded.

[joertexas]

May 5, 2020 16:47:08 GMT -5 ampleframework said:

Thank you for your thoughtful and thorough reply, erisred. That does help me quite a bit. So, what you've told me in a nutshell is that '83 Traveller is Classic enough, and as good a starting point as any. It sounds like the changes between the various editions are, perhaps, more a matter of personal preference than anything monumental. Not as big a deal as, say, different editions of D&D for sure. I do plan on playing in one or two games before deciding to actually referee one, so perhaps that will give me the opportunity to sample different flavors.

I will throw in that I use The New Era's Fire, Fusion and Steel rule book for starship and equipment creation. I'm a gearhead, so I've made an Excel workbook that nicely handles the somewhat lengthy creation process. That edition's World Builder's Guide is great for fleshing out star systems, too. 

[raikenclw]

Were I to run a game using a "Travelleresque" rules system, it would be Cepheus Engine. Very streamlined: it's pretty much just "roll 2d6, apply modifiers and hope for 8+"."

The game I currently run on Roll20 uses the latest edition of Savage Worlds, with rags and tags added from many other sources, primarily Traveller 4, Fading Suns and Firefly.

[ampleframework]

Okay, I want you good folks to know I find all this very helpful and interesting, even if I'm not replying quickly. It's a whole new vocabulary to internalize. I'm hearing a lot about Cepheus Engine and that's a brand new concept to me. I've got some Googling to do.

[erisred]

Drivethrurpg.com

Cepheus Engine:  $6 PDF;  $12 paper

Cepheus Engine SRD: Pay What You Want (suggested $10) for PDF

Cepheus Light: $5 PDF;  $14 paper

Cepheus Faster than Light: Free PDF; $7 for paper

1970's 2d6 Retro Rules: Free PDF     ( Edit: adding this here as it's an interesting read/take on a very light Traveller rules set)

Cepheus is almost completely compatible with Mongoose v 1 (I think), almost completely compatible with Classic, too! It changes some names of skills, races, etc, to stay in line with the Traveller System Reference Document (on the Mongoose website, I think). There are editable versions of Cepheus SRD for PWYW.

If you search for Cepheus you can also find Modern and Fantasy versions on Drivethru. Oh and there are plenty of adventures and settings there for Traveller and Cepheus, too.


(Edit: Let me add that if you search for Universal Machine Publications on Drivethru you'll find a bunch of free pdf's that are mostly the Mongoose SRD pared down to cover each of the areas needed to get a game going, plus some add-ons that you might use from these folks.)

Enjoy! 

Eris

[ampleframework]

Thanks again. That retro 70's one especially catches my eye. I'm toying a lot with 2d6 and rules lite systems lately, especially after watching Secrets of Blackmoor. Also more interested in refereeing one shots or mini campaigns to start out. Something like this might be more along the lines of what would suit my purposes best. You've been very helpful.

[erisred]

May 6, 2020 16:15:52 GMT -5 ampleframework said:

Thanks again. That retro 70's one especially catches my eye. I'm toying a lot with 2d6 and rules lite systems lately, especially after watching Secrets of Blackmoor. Also more interested in refereeing one shots or mini campaigns to start out. Something like this might be more along the lines of what would suit my purposes best. You've been very helpful.

You're most welcome. The 2d6 70s Retro one really caught my eye, too.

[ampleframework]

I did look over the preview at OneBookShelf and I'd be tempted to pony up for it, but ultimately I've decided there's no good reason why I wouldn't personally just use the rules I already own as a basis. I got them for free and they seem to have held up well over time. The newer editions and hacks undoubtedly benefit from hindsight and 45 years of refinement in layout and presentation techniques in the industry but I find this 1983 version charming, and I got it for free. There's also something about games that come in three small digest-sized booklets.

However, I've found this conversation very useful and educational nonetheless. And I do look forward to possibly joining in on a pbp Traveller campaign at some point in the future, possibly whenever a new one starts up. Please do let me know if you ever find a place for me. I'd be a bit daunted in joining one that's been going a while but I'm eager to test a sci-fi game out from a fresh start. I've never really done one before.

[Aarav]

May 5, 2020 15:59:56 GMT -5 erisred said:

3. The "Imperium Setting" got written into the rules. I think that started about 81 or 82. Things in 77 were much more make up your own setting...which I did. I remember getting more and more frustrated with the Journal articles and the books getting more and more Imperium centered. 

(I realize I am very, very late to this discussion, but I'm new here at Murkhill.)

Yes, the Third Imperium itself isn't there in the original, 1977 rules but aren't there elements of something like the "Third Imperium" in parts, liked the "Social Status" characteristic which is connected explicitly, at its higher levels, to a (Anglo-Saxon heritage) hereditary aristocracy? I mean being "Sir So-and-so" or "Dame Such-and-such" makes no sense in any setting which was like contemporary North America, say (or an imagined "future version" of just about any other place on the planet in 1977, even Britain).

Indeed, half the basic careers--army, navy and marines(!)--also suggest a specific sort of social setting which is, for example, very different from a "combined service" like Starfleet. (Admittedly, this material would fit better in North America of the time, but it was also ultimately embedded in the Third Imperium.) Wouldn't a more generic setting simply have had "military" as a career? (Let's not even talk about "marines" which make no sense whatsoever in a generic space setting. There are plenty of classic sci-fi sources, long before Star Trek, which have alternative conceptions of "the military" that woudn't fit here.)

[erisred]

Mar 19, 2021 20:27:09 GMT -5 Aarav said:

May 5, 2020 15:59:56 GMT -5 erisred said:

3. The "Imperium Setting" got written into the rules. I think that started about 81 or 82. Things in 77 were much more make up your own setting...which I did. I remember getting more and more frustrated with the Journal articles and the books getting more and more Imperium centered. 

(I realize I am very, very late to this discussion, but I'm new here at Murkhill.)

Yes, the Third Imperium itself isn't there in the original, 1977 rules but aren't there elements of something like the "Third Imperium" in parts, liked the "Social Status" characteristic which is connected explicitly, at its higher levels, to a (Anglo-Saxon heritage) hereditary aristocracy? I mean being "Sir So-and-so" or "Dame Such-and-such" makes no sense in any setting which was like contemporary North America, say (or an imagined "future version" of just about any other place on the planet in 1977, even Britain).

Indeed, half the basic careers--army, navy and marines(!)--also suggest a specific sort of social setting which is, for example, very different from a "combined service" like Starfleet. (Admittedly, this material would fit better in North America of the time, but it was also ultimately embedded in the Third Imperium.) Wouldn't a more generic setting simply have had "military" as a career? (Let's not even talk about "marines" which make no sense whatsoever in a generic space setting. There are plenty of classic sci-fi sources, long before Star Trek, which have alternative conceptions of "the military" that woudn't fit here.)

Yep! The original implied a "distant and not very involved" government, it directly stated a feudal structure for it. One of the main Traveller foundations is local control because the "government is too far away in time and space...limited by time of travel" to micro-manage things.

If your "Empire" is limited to Jump 3, which reasonable with the original CT, and your systems aren't lined up in perfect order then information and questions are going to take 3 weeks to cross a subsector. It's going to take just as long to get a reply, too. I think that if it is taking more than 10 weeks to make those round trips things are going to fall apart quickly. So, really, governments that have any sort of cohesion are only going to span 2 or 3 sub-sectors...maybe you can stretch it to a whole sector, maybe.

That's my thought on why big governments are best kept mostly off-screen in Traveller settings. 

Another thing to think about is if most ships are limited to J1, J2, and only really rarely do any ships have longer legs than that, then it's going to make travel much longer. You might have to travel 10 jumps to go 4 or 5 parsecs to get to the system you're interested in visiting. It will make some systems, just plain out of reach, and some are going to be so far off the beaten path (the mains) that they get visited only once or twice a year...if that often.

[Aarav]

Mar 22, 2021 15:47:27 GMT -5 erisred said:

Yep! The original implied a "distant and not very involved" government, it directly stated a feudal structure for it. One of the main Traveller foundations is local control because the "government is too far away in time and space...limited by time of travel" to micro-manage things.

I got/get that, and can see how that's working well in "Exploring Mantan," but I do think a lot more of the "Third Imperium" is there embedded in the '77 rules than simply the idea of a "remote feudal government."

Consider the Social Status attribute. Either this is generally useless in a "frontier" campaign--out here in the marches we really don't care if you were a "prince" or a "pauper" back home--or it means something more meaningful in the "local" campaign milieu. High Soc could mean you're a powerful criminal kingpin--like Jabba the Hutt--or perhaps you're a renown adventurer--like Allan Quartermain--but if it matters that you're called "Sir/Dame" when the last digit/character in your UPP is "B" (or that former naval officers will tend to have more Soc, as compared to former army officers) then you're sort of already playing in something like the "Third Imperium" (as opposed to a "wild frontier" or, say, a Trek-esque Federation or the Polesotechnic League).

Not trying to be a troublesome knucklehead here. I just think there are things in the material itself which suggest the Creators were already thinking of something like the "Third Imperium" when the original three LBBs were being written.

(While on the other hand, there also were things--like the separate army, navy and marine careers, and all the iron-mongery--which were there because they fit with what had been the Creators "real life" experience.)

[raikenclw]

Mar 22, 2021 21:50:16 GMT -5 Aarav said:

. . . if it matters that you're called "Sir/Dame" when the last digit/character in your UPP is "B" (or that former naval officers will tend to have more Soc, as compared to former army officers) then you're sort of already playing in something like the "Third Imperium" (as opposed to a "wild frontier" or, say, a Trek-esque Federation or the Polesotechnic League).

Not trying to be a troublesome knucklehead here. I just think there are things in the material itself which suggest the Creators were already thinking of something like the "Third Imperium" when the original three LBBs were being written.

(While on the other hand, there also were things--like the separate army, navy and marine careers, and all the iron-mongery--which were there because they fit with what had been the Creators "real life" experience.)

I think you're fairly well correct here. As I understand it, Marc Miller was/is a degreed historian and - consciously or not - modeled his "distant government" on actual past governments that had to deal with similar massive time lags, such as the Late Roman Empire and the 17th/18th Century British Empire. One thing both of these had in common was the power welded by the man on the spot, the person "out on the sharp end." It was that person's task to shape events to benefit the realm, with the government's job restricted to backing that person's decisions with official (after the fact) approval.

The folk "on the sharp end" are Travellers. Everyone else are NPCs.

[Aarav]

Apr 21, 2021 18:59:44 GMT -5 raikenclw said:

As I understand it, Marc Miller was/is a degreed historian and - consciously or not - modeled his "distant government" on actual past governments that had to deal with similar massive time lags, such as the Late Roman Empire and the 17th/18th Century British Empire. One thing both of these had in common was the power welded by the man on the spot, the person "out on the sharp end." It was that person's task to shape events to benefit the realm, with the government's job restricted to backing that person's decisions with official (after the fact) approval.

The folk "on the sharp end" are Travellers. Everyone else are NPCs.

I think this is right too but there's more to the "baked-in" Classic Traveller setting than this. Star Trek's Captain Kirk--"Horatio Hornblower in Space"--fits this model too but many of the elements of Classic character generation (e.g. "Marines") would not fit in a setting which looked like Kirk's Federation. . . .