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Post by bestialwarlust on Jun 27, 2015 7:41:40 GMT -5
This isn't mine but some tips from other ref's. I already do some of these and have for a long time. I thought I would post it here:
Pro-tip #1: Adventurers are competent, hardened sorts. Keep this in mind for any mundane task.
Pro-tip #2: Unless you're 100% sure there's a chance for failure, don't roll. A good description of a reasonable plan succeeds. Period. It will cost resources of some sort: materials and/or time. Pro-tip #3: If you feel the need to roll for the above, then randomly determine how much resources it costs. Pro-tip #4: If you're certain there should be a chance for failure, then roll the dice. However, always tell the player what the odds are first.* The character is right there and can judge for themselves that odds far better than you can ever convey them to the player via description. Corollary to Pro-tip #4: Try to minimize how many hard numbers you give. It confuses the issue. Everyone thinks they have good grasp on the odds of jumping a 10' wide chasm, and they all differ. Instead try to stick with, "It's pretty wide, but jump-able with a good run. Unencumbered you're certain to make it, but with your plate mail, weapons, and that massive bag of gold it's 50/50." * Exception: it's fine if there's a legitimate reason the character would misjudge the odds, but be careful not to do this too often. It can slip into dickish DMing pretty easily.
My pro-tip #2: If a person can do it, they will succeed, always. They may mess up a couple times and have to start over, but that's really a matter of resources, especially *time*. We don't care how many times they fail, we just care how long it takes to succeed, or (in the case of combat or other contests between opponents) whether somebody else can resist. My pro-tip #3A: If there's enough time, no roll is necessary. If there is a roll with no immediate consequence, like opening a stuck door, failure means the action still happens, just not as quickly or with other consequences (bash into door a couple times, alerting anything on the other side.) My pro-tip #3B: If time is not relevant, never roll except to make something *happen*. No roll to see if you know how to tie a knot, but maybe roll to see if a knot comes loose due to circumstances beyond your control. In fact, except in combat-like situations, we never make anything resembling a "skill roll", we only roll to see if something happens by accident (trap is triggered, spike slips, bump into wandering monster.) My pro-tip #4: Give a good odds estimate based on what's obvious, but not necessarily numeric odds. "About fifty-fifty" is probably the only time I would tell players any numbers; otherwise, I'd say "good chance" or "slight chance" that something would happen. Corollary: Do not include modifiers that the players wouldn't know about. I'd wrap all these tips with another principle: Don't look for reasons to make the players fail. If you can explain why something can't possibly work, fine: "You are a medieval mercenary, not a modern neurosurgeon, so no, you can't do that." But if someone does something unexpected, don't deny them any chance of success, or add a chance of failure, simply because you're trying to protect your delicate snowflake dungeon from the big, bad players. They use ESP in an area where you planned a great ambush? It works. They stand way far back and use Fireball to set a woodpile on fire? Yeah, it works, although if it could attract attention, you might include an extra wandering monster roll. Only add a chance of failure if you have an idea for something interesting that could happen as a result of failure.
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Class is not profession. Add freeform backgrounds to represent profession and distinguish one fighter from another fighter (or any class from another example of that class.) If a player still can't find the right class, make new classes by mixing old classes, or reskinning abilities of old classes. New classes can't have more abilities than the basic four. No rolls for plain old success. If a character can theoretically do something, they can do it. Roll only if there's a risk of something going wrong or there's a chance of something special happening (use 5+ on 1d6 as basic roll for just about anything.) Give a +/- 1, 2, or 3 when one side clearly has more advantage in a situation. Otherwise, don't worry about precise bonuses/penalties for elements, and keep bonus inflation under control.
Don't stack bonuses. +2 Armor and +3 Shield doesn't give you Armor + Shield +5. Use the standard magical research rules with a multiplier or divisor for miscellaneous research or training costs. Let characters add non-class abilities through research/training, instead of skill points, feats, proficiencies, or munchkinized classes.
Don't let players game the rules. Let them game the environment. If a player wants to do something (and it's possible,) let them do it, with any logical consequences of their actions. Don't punish players for thinking of stuff you didn't.
Give xp for saving people (same as if they were slain monster.) Give xp for other wealth recovered (tame wilderness area to establish trade route = gp value of trade route.) For miscellaneous plans, give xp equal to 10 x ability score used. Don't add other rules unless they cause something to happen in the game world that is relevant to that world.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Jun 27, 2015 22:18:59 GMT -5
Pro-tip #1: Adventurers are competent, hardened sorts. Keep this in mind for any mundane task. I know opinion is divided about the competence of 1st level characters, but I've always been in the camp that they are more than "normal men". That's why those thieves' skills are superhuman - climbing sheer surfaces, hiding in shadows? Anyone can climb a tree or hide behind a curtain, no roll needed. This I don't agree with. For the same reason that they are experienced adventurers, they can't also have a "day-job". Adventuring is a full-time vocation, not something you do on your day off. Gold. Let players do some of the work of building the world! I would go so far as rewarding them by giving them the benefit of the doubt and letting their plan work, just to encourage that sort of immersion in future. Huh, I guess I should chip in, then, Okay: #8: If you need to make a roll that really, really matters - let the players know the odds and do it in the open. As Holmes said, "The Dice Never Lie."
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todd
Prospector
Posts: 75
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Post by todd on Jul 2, 2015 16:51:46 GMT -5
Nice stuff.
A couple of thing I picked up from reading Burning Wheel that I like: asking a player to describe both his action and intent, ie. pick the door lock so we can sneak in quietly, etc. which gives a more clear context for both success and failure of that action; and, related, to sustain forward momentum through failures, so that instead of, in the action example above, a failed roll just derailing the action, instead it could result in the door is unlocked but it makes a racket, drawing guards, etc., or it unlocks but the lock-picks break inside, etc. (the door doesn't have to open in the case of failure, maybe something else happens but the important part is to keep the game moving and use complications as penalties for failure rather than bringing the game to a halt). I like this, in particular, as way to get around those moments in which the game gets stuck on a failure.
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monk
Prospector
Posts: 90
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Post by monk on Jul 2, 2015 23:36:01 GMT -5
I LOVE this kind of thread. Thanks for posting!
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Post by merctime on Jul 3, 2015 1:34:50 GMT -5
I'm pretty much all in as regards the OP, except I have to agree with Vile: In my campaigns, class is definitely profession. Vile's analogy is basically spot on for me.
Consider it like a trade profession: There are levels of talent in each. Apprentice, journeyman, (the next level I forget the name of, but it exemplifies professional competence), and master. NPC's can become master boatwrights or wagons makers, but not while mastering magic for example. For the PC's, I'm firmly in the camp of "all adventurers know how to adventure" so I allow Apprentice style knowledge of stuff like raft making or improvising a rope bridge. But if the PC's want a true sailing vessel or stone bridge, they need to hire requisite NPC experts.
Regarding rolling for stuff or not, I typically roll for the "usual suspects" of wandering monsters, PC listen checks, or finding hidden doors. Otherwise, a players involvement in intelligently describing how his PC accomplishes something may well forgo the die roll. If he immaculately described how to find the clasp and hinge of the Secret door, and it's obvious he's got a strong notion it's there, well... He just found it, sans roll. Same for traps.
I'll also keep in mind a characters abilities in making determinations of success, but intelligent play on the players part can override this in my opinion. So a Dullard PC might still figure a tough puzzle out if the player really tears it up. I do reign this in a bit sometimes but a players skill overcoming low stats can easily be explained off as dumb luck or divine assistance. Good play is way more what I'm after than leaning on stats and die rolls, and fortunately, games like OD&D, DD, and BLUEHOLME don't put tons of emphasis on stats anyways.
Yep, otherwise, I'm in full support of the OP.
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Post by bestialwarlust on Jul 3, 2015 12:15:29 GMT -5
I tend to like players to have a one or two sentence background to define what their "mundane" skill or area's of knowledge might be. Especially for players who complain that OD&D has no customization.
"I want to play a knight,but there's no class or skills for that"
Ok background noble now anytime anything knightly or royal comes into question you're an expert at it!
"I want to play a pirate but where's my menu list of options to choose from"
Ok then you're background is Pirating you have skills and knowledge of sailing and ships and know how to find a criminal element when you get into port. Any other issues that come up that may relate to that are also covered.
And now we have two players playing a fighting man that are completely different from one another. But that's just my preference.
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Post by merctime on Jul 3, 2015 12:39:43 GMT -5
For what it's worth, I'm not against that stuff at all. I just tend to use that sort of thing to help direct my determination of success at something instead of a roll. In my campaign, players can use the nation of birth for this also. Vikings are considered to know something about sailing, Guals could be considered good at outdoors stuff. I just assume proficiency with no need to roll unless it's terribly tough or under duress.
But I like your keyword idea. "My character is a tracker" ... OK, I hand waive extra tracking ability. "My character is the son of a tailor" ... OK, I hand waive clothing repair and that character pays a little less upkeep because clothes last longer. Or he can make simple garments. I just personally don't tend to allow character skill to reach beyond apprenticeship type stuff outside of class or adventuring things. I think we're on the same page, although I'm not trying to imply that my ways are the only ways.
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Post by bestialwarlust on Jul 3, 2015 20:05:24 GMT -5
For what it's worth, I'm not against that stuff at all. I just tend to use that sort of thing to help direct my determination of success at something instead of a roll. In my campaign, players can use the nation of birth for this also. Vikings are considered to know something about sailing, Guals could be considered good at outdoors stuff. I just assume proficiency with no need to roll unless it's terribly tough or under duress. But I like your keyword idea. "My character is a tracker" ... OK, I hand waive extra tracking ability. "My character is the son of a tailor" ... OK, I hand waive clothing repair and that character pays a little less upkeep because clothes last longer. Or he can make simple garments. I just personally don't tend to allow character skill to reach beyond apprenticeship type stuff outside of class or adventuring things. I think we're on the same page, although I'm not trying to imply that my ways are the only ways. Agreed that's primarily what I use the background for. "A long time ago ...." but now you're *insert class* this way they have some non adventuring skills, abilities....knowledges if they want. I really leave that up to the player. If I get a player who just rolls up a character and doesn't care about any of that it's fine with me. And besides the game would be boring if everyone ran it exactly the same.
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Post by merctime on Jul 4, 2015 11:22:39 GMT -5
And besides the game would be boring if everyone ran it exactly the same. This! For absolute sure.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Jul 6, 2015 10:43:18 GMT -5
I tend to like players to have a one or two sentence background to define what their "mundane" skill or area's of knowledge might be. Especially for players who complain that OD&D has no customization. "I want to play a knight,but there's no class or skills for that" Ok background noble now anytime anything knightly or royal comes into question you're an expert at it! "I want to play a pirate but where's my menu list of options to choose from" Ok then you're background is Pirating you have skills and knowledge of sailing and ships and know how to find a criminal element when you get into port. Any other issues that come up that may relate to that are also covered. And now we have two players playing a fighting man that are completely different from one another. But that's just my preference. I like that and I'm going to steal borrow it.
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Post by Admin Pete on Jul 6, 2015 16:07:13 GMT -5
I tend to like players to have a one or two sentence background to define what their "mundane" skill or area's of knowledge might be. Especially for players who complain that OD&D has no customization. "I want to play a knight,but there's no class or skills for that" Ok background noble now anytime anything knightly or royal comes into question you're an expert at it! "I want to play a pirate but where's my menu list of options to choose from" Ok then you're background is Pirating you have skills and knowledge of sailing and ships and know how to find a criminal element when you get into port. Any other issues that come up that may relate to that are also covered. And now we have two players playing a fighting man that are completely different from one another. But that's just my preference. Have an Exalt! How could customization be easier than that!
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todd
Prospector
Posts: 75
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Post by todd on Jul 9, 2015 10:09:04 GMT -5
Another thing that I thought about that I try to do: if it's locked, it should contain something-- it doesn't have to be of huge importance or worth, but there should be something that either has meaning or can obtain meaning through the game-- maybe it's a strange figurine that is cold and clammy to the touch or a fragment of parchment covered in strange symbols-- it doesn't have to be relevant in that moment but it becomes something that a) the players will build meaning for, just by virtue of its presence, and b) become hooks for you to build complications, plots, subplots, or further adventures around. Often those hooks and ideas will come straight from the players discussing what they just found.
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Post by Von on Jul 19, 2015 11:29:52 GMT -5
1. It is only worth rolling for something if the prospect of failure is interesting or the speed of success is important. 2. Do not place your adventurers on one side of the arbitrary puzzle crap/secret door and your adventure on the other. 3. Don't quibble. Don't be drawn into quibbling. We are here to have adventures, not arguments. DM fiat is for resolving arguments quickly and without fuss and only for that. 4. Flow is more important than accuracy or faith to the rules. If you can't look it up in under a minute, make it up. 5. You are not a novelist. It is one thing to ban Continual Light because the mere existence of that spell is society-altering on a grand scale; it is another to ban ESP because players use it to bypass your precious vision. Sometimes they'll get lucky and kill Strahd with Dispel Magic. Roll with it. Strahd has minions, lovers, brides, all of whom are now out for revenge. Everything your players do is story fuel. EVERYTHING. 6. Nothing is sacred. You don't have to use Vancian magic just because Gygax loved Vance. Ascending AC won't kill you (consistent "high numbers are good" is to my mind a good thing). 7. Roll your dice openly and don't fudge. Caveat: don't roll dice if you're not prepared to abide by their result. 8. Train your players and yourself. If you want them to explore and use the details of environments you need to provide detailed environments for them to explore. If you want them to think on their feet, speak lightly and move fast. If you want resource management to be important then make that clear at the start and give them time to prepare, and ask them "are you doing this? are you doing that?" until they declare their actions reflexively. 9. Combat should be swift, deadly and precarious. If your players groan rather than tremble when you reach for the dice, you're doing it wrong. It is more acceptable to handwave a fight than to have it drag on. 10. Sometimes an encounter is as valid as an adventure. It doesn't all have to be long haul dungeon crawl. 11. Keep 'em poor! They don't earn XP for hoarding gold, they earn XP for spending it, and that keeps 'em poor and keeps 'em adventuring. 12. If you want to set a particular tone for your game it's your job to establish and maintain it. Caveat: know your players and don't invite Frivolous Dave to your ultra-immersive Pendragon game. 13. This is not a competition. Your players are not your opponents. You are not trying to kill their characters. You are the administrator of an environment in which, through negligence or carelessness or ignorance or plain bad luck, it is possible for their characters to die.
No particular order but that's what I think's important.
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Post by tetramorph on Jul 19, 2015 14:45:54 GMT -5
Von, nice post. I agree with all of your points but 7 and 11. Some rolls should be secret. Listen at doors, check for secret doors, triggering a trap, even occasionally I will roll an opposing check for some kind of attempt. It is important to my game that players not know whether something happened because it isn't there or they just weren't lucky enough. I don't mind keeping them poor but in the end I want gp to accrue so that they can invest in end game: strongholds, troops, specialists, etc. I try to build in game incentive towards such goals. Thanks for all the rest. Good stuff!
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Post by The Red Baron on Jul 20, 2015 13:59:28 GMT -5
consistent "high numbers are good" is to my mind a good thing I disagree. Probabilities are much easier when rolled low.
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Post by Von on Jul 20, 2015 14:14:08 GMT -5
consistent "high numbers are good" is to my mind a good thing I disagree. Probabilities are much easier when rolled low. I tend to deal with probabilities as fractions: one in twelve chance, for instance. That's pretty easy to handle on one die. If the player has a one in twelve chance of something going in their favour, then they want to roll a twelve, because high numbers are always good. If the player is trying to avoid something disastrous happening, then they want to roll low, because low numbers are always bad. That's the kind of consistency which I think is 'good' - a principle that's easy to remember. Do you still disagree? If so, no harm no foul. I'm not trying to convert anyone - merely wondering if I had explained my position to a satisfactory degree.
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Post by Admin Pete on Jul 21, 2015 13:40:34 GMT -5
Let me go ahead and post a few thoughts:
Some Referee Tips that come to mine to me in no particular order.
01. There is a lot that is good about keeping your game kid friendly. Unless you only play with your childhood buddies who have the same background and sense of humour, keeping it kid friendly is a good way to avoid offending people who are not your childhood buddies. This does not mean dumbing down your game.
02. Remember how much fun you had the first time your ever played? As a referee, try to give everyone that kind of fun, everytime. The more fun your players have the more forgiving they will be of your weaknesses as a Referee and the more they will invest in your campaign.
03. Be prepared as much as you can and keep the game moving, less dead time means more fun.
04. OD&D is not about having a prepared storyline and EVENTS that have to HAPPEN. OD&D is about having a living world where life goes on around the players and the story is what is told and remembered afterwards about what the players did in that world.
05. The real life villians/jerks/annoyances that you have met as you go through life, reskin them and put them in your game as the BBEGs and their henchmen.
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Post by Admin Pete on Jul 21, 2015 13:40:46 GMT -5
06. Ask yourself if you would be excited to play in your game.
07. Think on your feet, create of the fly, I don't know is a killer for your game.
08. As much as is possible, try to make sure that the players know your house rules up front.
09. Be prepared for when your players go where you least expected them to go.
10. Be prepared for when your players outsmart you or outthink you. Don't take it personal, be joyful that you have great players!
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Post by Admin Pete on Jul 21, 2015 13:41:03 GMT -5
11. Work on describing accurately what the players see, resist the temptation to tell them what to think or do about what they see. Let them play!
12. Your monsters should not be stupid and have no sense of self-preservation.
13. Be ready to answer seemingly random quetions about your setting.
14. If you point out places in your world, it is likely that the players will want to go there, especially if it is a long way away.
15. Be fair! Do not play games with your players where there is no good choice to make, normally there will always be an acceptable choice. Unless you have prepared them ahead of time so they know that if they good down this road they may not like where it leads and if they make that choice with their eyes wide open then so be it.
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Post by Admin Pete on Jul 21, 2015 13:41:11 GMT -5
16. When describing things be convincing.
17. When the players make bad choices there are consequences, don't rescue them from their own actions.
18. Your goal is not a TPK, just recognize that sometimes the players bring that on themselves.
19. Review the last few games on a regular basis, strive not to be perdictable. I.E. if you are repeating a lot of things: STOP IT!!
20. Keep a journal of your ideas. Reread it every now and again.
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Post by Admin Pete on Jul 21, 2015 13:41:46 GMT -5
21. Be consistent. Keep a few notes when you rule on the fly and then if it worked well you can do it that way next time, if it didn't then go a different way next time. Its ok to let your players know that it will not work that way again.(Even though it may never come up again.)
22. Have a list of NPC names ready to use.
23. Listen to what your players say. They will give you good ideas and they will never know it was not your idea.
24. If you are going to err, err on the side of the players.
25. Go with the flow, let the players try things and as much as possible allow a lot of those things to work. You want to players to be creative and more creative as time goes by so don't throw cold water on their ideas without good reason.
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Post by Admin Pete on Jul 21, 2015 13:41:52 GMT -5
26. Always remember that the bad guys want to win and they do not know they are the bad guys, they think the HEROES are the bad guys.
27. Play the bad guys as thinking, intelligent people.
28. Tell your players what they see, hear, smell, taste, feel and not how they react to it, let them tell you how they react to it. If you players have trouble telling you how they react, maybe you have been doing too much of it for them.
29. Brief descriptions are much better than long drawnout explanations. As they say "Brevity is the soul of wit."
30. OD&D is about having fun! If you are not having fun make changes, until both you and the players start having fun.
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Post by bestialwarlust on Jul 21, 2015 20:45:32 GMT -5
Good points PD!
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Post by hengest on Apr 6, 2021 18:46:46 GMT -5
07. Think on your feet, create of the fly, I don't know is a killer for your game. The Perilous Dreamer, this was your Admin post at the time, let me ask a followup question for a bump: What was one thing you remember creating on the fly that then became or led to a significant part of the campaign?
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Apr 9, 2021 3:09:33 GMT -5
07. Think on your feet, create of the fly, I don't know is a killer for your game. The Perilous Dreamer , this was your Admin post at the time, let me ask a followup question for a bump: What was one thing you remember creating on the fly that then became or led to a significant part of the campaign? I had forgotten about this post and that I had written 30 tips. This is almost 6 years ago. One thing I did was this:
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GM Tips
Apr 23, 2021 16:09:10 GMT -5
Post by Admin Pete on Apr 23, 2021 16:09:10 GMT -5
A lot of good advice in this thread and it is bookmark worthy.
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GM Tips
Apr 24, 2021 23:36:09 GMT -5
Post by Morton on Apr 24, 2021 23:36:09 GMT -5
Wowzer, this is a gold mine of advice, I am not sure that I can think of anything to add, but if I do I will come back and post it. They are all good, but TPD your 30 points are spot on.
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