Stagecoaches are NOT just for Westerns

[The Perilous Dreamer]

I am sharing this because not everyone is aware that stagecoaches are not just a western thing, they also were a medieval thing too! We know for sure the 1600's, but it is entirely possible they are much older than that, maybe hundreds of years older than that. Check out this blog post for ways to use stagecoaches in both western and fantasy games.


Stagecoaches are NOT just for Westerns

[bravewolf]

This was known to Dave Hargrave. As The Perilous Dreamer 's post* hints, Hargrave's Welcome to Skull Tower summarizes Arduin's coach service.
*https://ruinsofmurkhill.proboards.com/thread/67/welcome-skull-tower-arduin-grimoire

[ripx187]

My current game is beginning in the city of Waterdeep, basically Forgotten Realm's Free City of Greyhawk. It is very well documented and has supplements that spand through every edition. It is a bit overwhelming, all that is written about it, but it is still modular and elective. Even the information that I was able to get in my free time gave me enough ideas to run with it. 


I've always avoided huge cities because my games were westerns which took place out on the frontier. It's what I am used to. When I want to incorporate European models and ideas I've got to do lots of homework to understand those cultures enough to emulate them. Through the years I developed a better feel for medieval life and a deeper understanding of fantasy and what that means to the game. We probably aren't running historically accurate games. We can create the illusion but the research is slow and these ideas are added over time. 

Now that I've taken a bite out of the most civilized city, and read what other DMs have done with it, again; it is just like a western. Waterdeep, as with all major cities that feature populations much higher than any other, should be running as if it was in the 1890s but with fantasy magic replacing science. Magic simulates electricity, wealthy people can have elaborate horseless wagons that are slower than walking but you'll turn heads. There are taxies to quickly move PCs to where the action is. Gang wars, corrupt police, extravagance, and poverty mingled together. New York or London, but with fantastic elements like little goblins that collect horse poop in exchange for milk left out. A wizard's guild whose duty it is to light street lamps at night. Guilds EVERYWHERE! Being broke in a place like this is fatal, but making money legally is made almost impossible by all of the guilds who will take offense to you working outside of them. 

I actually have a lot of experience running Victorian era games, it is our favorite setting, so this is actually pretty familiar to me. I think that that was the point.  As Americans, this is our legends and myths. Our heroes and villains. As far as pulp stories go, the Western was just such a versatile thing with endless potential that it formed the basic story structures which are still used today. They provided familiar icons that allowed the reader to get right into the story without any setup what so ever. We don't need to read 80-page supplemental books detailing some border town, we already know what it is and exactly what is there, and that goes for everybody at the table. Nobody wants to sit through 3 hours of a back story during a D&D game, these shared ideas are important to make sure that we don't, and we get to see what is different or unique about it by exploring it. We fans of the pulps owe a huge debt to westerns and the formulas which they invented to quickly entertain us.

[El Borak]

Westerns are great! I wonder how old stagecoaches (by any name) really are. That link says possibly the 1300s with firm documentation to the 1600s. The Romans were building good roads well before that.

Wagons en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagon

From Britannica www.britannica.com/technology/wagon-vehicle

Wagon, four-wheeled vehicle designed to be drawn by draft animals and known to have been used as early as the 1st century bc, incorporating such earlier innovations as the spoked wheel and metal wheel rim. Early examples also had such features as pivoted front axles and linchpins to secure the wheels. In its essential form, therefore, the wagon has been in common use for about 2,000 years.

During the 9th century several additional improvements in harness and suspension led to a marked preference for wagons over carts as a means of passenger and long-distance transportation. Wagons were heavier than carts in construction, with a boxlike body that was useful for hauling freight and agricultural produce and a smoother ride due to the inherent stability of being supported on four wheels rather than two. Wagons were produced in many sizes and types, and those used for the carrying of passengers were equipped with springs between the box and the running gear. The coach variation was a later innovation, becoming a distinct form in the 16th century. One type of wagon, the Conestoga, became famous as a freight wagon during the 18th century, and its descendant, the prairie schooner, was the most common vehicle used by settlers in the opening of the American West.

Chariots date back about 4000 years. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot

Carriages en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carriage

Prehistory
Some horsecarts found in Celtic graves show hints that their platforms were suspended elastically.[5] Four-wheeled wagons were used in the Bronze Age Europe, and their form known from excavations suggests that the basic construction techniques of wheel and undercarriage (that survived until the age of the motor car) were established then.[6]

Carts en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cart

Larger carts may be drawn by animals, such as horses, mules, or oxen. They have been in continuous use since the invention of the wheel, in the 4th millennium BC.

So carts (two wheels) go back about 6000 years at least.

[simrion]

If you have the time and inclination read some of the volumes in The Book of the Malazan. There is a Guild that operates a transdimensional coach service where adventurers can buy shares to join a trip and act as guards to protect the investment and to get through the various gates (fraught with peril) to their destination safely. Some wicked rides are cataloged in the stories.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Apr 3, 2020 16:13:42 GMT -5 simrion said:

If you have the time and inclination read some of the volumes in The Book of the Malazan. There is a Guild that operates a transdimensional coach service where adventurers can buy shares to join a trip and act as guards to protect the investment and to get through the various gates (fraught with peril) to their destination safely. Some wicked rides are cataloged in the stories.

I have never read anything by Steven Erikson, shame the library is closed, since we have so much time to read.  What is his writing style like? Is there anyone you would compare him to?

[simrion]

He has a pretty unique style IMNSHO. Kind of a blend of immediate action like Glen Cook (Black Company?) and overarching story/detail of Gene Wolfe (Books of the New Sun?) It is my understanding the seeds of his stories began as an AD&D then GURPs campaign. High and low fantasy think regular folks rubbing elbows with gods and demigods. And the opportunity for ascension too! I honestly think he took the tropes of 1980's AD&D and adapted them to his stories.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Apr 4, 2020 6:36:33 GMT -5 simrion said:

He has a pretty unique style IMNSHO. Kind of a blend of immediate action like Glen Cook (Black Company?) and overarching story/detail of Gene Wolfe (Books of the New Sun?) It is my understanding the seeds of his stories began as an AD&D then GURPs campaign. High and low fantasy think regular folks rubbing elbows with gods and demigods. And the opportunity for ascension too! I honestly think he took the tropes of 1980's AD&D and adapted them to his stories.

Sounds like something I would like. As soon as the libraries are open again I will have to check it out.

[simrion]

Apr 4, 2020 14:47:22 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

Apr 4, 2020 6:36:33 GMT -5 simrion said:

He has a pretty unique style IMNSHO. Kind of a blend of immediate action like Glen Cook (Black Company?) and overarching story/detail of Gene Wolfe (Books of the New Sun?) It is my understanding the seeds of his stories began as an AD&D then GURPs campaign. High and low fantasy think regular folks rubbing elbows with gods and demigods. And the opportunity for ascension too! I honestly think he took the tropes of 1980's AD&D and adapted them to his stories.

Sounds like something I would like. As soon as the libraries are open again I will have to check it out.

IIRC Garden of the Moon is the first one for the Book of the Malazan. Fun introduction to the mercenary company called The Bridge Burners and their leader Whiskeyjack. With a name like that how could you not like it?

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Apr 4, 2020 17:15:26 GMT -5 simrion said:

Apr 4, 2020 14:47:22 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

Sounds like something I would like. As soon as the libraries are open again I will have to check it out.

IIRC Garden of the Moon is the first one for the Book of the Malazan. Fun introduction to the mercenary company called The Bridge Burners and their leader Whiskeyjack. With a name like that how could you not like it?

Indeed Whiskyjack. I like the name, I created a character I called Smokey Pete. 

[mao]

I only ran a few westerns but one was particularly interesting. I had a friend who wanted to play the Wild Bunch, so I treated my group to a 6 on 50 Federales wild melee on horse back. Truly fun, none of the pcs died(done w GURPS)

[simrion]

We played a bit of Boot Hill back in the day. Great adolescent fun! Hard on the horses that were parked in the street during shoot-outs though ;-)

[mao]

Apr 5, 2020 6:49:41 GMT -5 simrion said:

We played a bit of Boot Hill back in the day. Great adolescent fun! Hard on the horses that were parked in the street during shoot-outs though ;-)

Yea, early in my gaming  played a bit to. there was an awesome book that did super detailed gun shot wounds(Bio One) that I had some fun with, also used it for Traveller

[mao]

Apr 4, 2020 18:52:43 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

Apr 4, 2020 17:15:26 GMT -5 simrion said:

IIRC Garden of the Moon is the first one for the Book of the Malazan. Fun introduction to the mercenary company called The Bridge Burners and their leader Whiskeyjack. With a name like that how could you not like it?

Indeed Whiskyjack. I like the name, I created a character I called Smokey Pete. 

whiskyjack gets an Exault!

[simrion]

Apr 5, 2020 7:38:59 GMT -5 mao said:

Apr 5, 2020 6:49:41 GMT -5 simrion said:

We played a bit of Boot Hill back in the day. Great adolescent fun! Hard on the horses that were parked in the street during shoot-outs though ;-)

Yea, early in my gaming  played a bit to. there was an awesome book that did super detailed gun shot wounds(Bio One) that I had some fun with, also used it for Traveller

Ahhh yes, I remember BioOne. Never actually had a change to see it/use it. Neat item adaptable to any FRPG if I understand correctly? Was it really fiddly rules-wise?

[mao]

Apr 5, 2020 17:54:29 GMT -5 simrion said:

Apr 5, 2020 7:38:59 GMT -5 mao said:

Yea, early in my gaming  played a bit to. there was an awesome book that did super detailed gun shot wounds(Bio One) that I had some fun with, also used it for Traveller

Ahhh yes, I remember BioOne. Never actually had a change to see it/use it. Neat item adaptable to any FRPG if I understand correctly? Was it really fiddly rules-wise?

Very easy to work with, rather fun

[The Perilous Dreamer]

I had never heard of this one, sounds like it could have been a supplement to Boot Hill instead of a standalone game. The odd part for me is that it was published before Boot Hill, I would love to know the history of how that all happened.

Bio One: Rules For Exact Hit Location and Damage in Gunpowder Period Man-to-Man Rules Paperback – 1974

"BIO ONE was created In 1974 to incorporate a degree of realism into a field of war-gaming which was sorely lacking. BIO ONE provides a complete and accurate system of damage location and effects for any gunpowder period of warfare. BIO ONE will prove an interesting addition to any set of man-to-man rules which uses gun fire..."

1974 ... Jim Muscala & WAW Productions ... TSR Rules

[simrion]

Seems to me the early days of TSR was "this is a really fun game/rules set. We should publish it and see if anyone will buy it?" Wasn't there a space empire game, Starprobe and Stellar Empires?

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Apr 6, 2020 16:27:44 GMT -5 simrion said:

Seems to me the early days of TSR was "this is a really fun game/rules set. We should publish it and see if anyone will buy it?" Wasn't there a space empire game, Starprobe and Stellar Empires?

There was a thread started:

Star Probe (1974) and Star Empires (1977)

I just added a couple of links. Star Probe was apparently notable because it played the game in three dimensions instead of two like most other games of the space persuasion.

[El Borak]

Apr 3, 2020 16:13:42 GMT -5 simrion said:

If you have the time and inclination read some of the volumes in The Book of the Malazan. There is a Guild that operates a transdimensional coach service where adventurers can buy shares to join a trip and act as guards to protect the investment and to get through the various gates (fraught with peril) to their destination safely. Some wicked rides are cataloged in the stories.

simrion, I will have to check that out too!