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Post by ripx187 on Dec 30, 2019 15:34:29 GMT -5
I've been reading my Yule present, the 5th Edition Dungeons & Dragons, which I really dig! But, last night I got to the Rogue class and . . . man. Talk about disappointing.
2nd Edition came up with these things that they called Kits, which in theory were supposed to add to your experience as a player, but in practice they sucked. They were one dimensional and most of them described NPCs than something that could really be played. A big part of a class in D&D is that they must function within a party, after all, D&D is a cooperative game.
For the most part, 5e has amazing kits that inspire players and function well in relation to the other players, until we get to Thieves. Perhaps it is just me, I've never been a fan of Assassin, but reading that description, it doesn't sound like an archetype, it sounds like a specific NPC. Also, the class doesn't look like it functions well (read- at all) with cooperative play. It could just be me! I love playing thieves, but I play them weird apparently.
It isn't just the Assassin build, but all of the rogue progression paths seem to reinforce rogues as evil characters, which they don't have to be. Where are the Trouble-shooters? The charlatan? The scouts? Granted, I only have the PHB, and I assume that better rogues have been invented, but I don't own them, and I'm a bit reluctant to create content for a system that I haven't much experience playing with yet. I suppose that I can stomach one of the kits, but that assassin. That really is a waste of space for me.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Dec 30, 2019 16:47:26 GMT -5
2nd Edition came up with these things that they called Kits, which in theory were supposed to add to your experience as a player, but in practice they sucked. They were one dimensional and most of them described NPCs than something that could really be played. A big part of a class in D&D is that they must function within a party, after all, D&D is a cooperative game. I am playing in a 2E campaign right now and that is my obeservation of the Kits is that they are entirely suited to NPCs and not PCs. As written they do not fit into a party very well. Right now we have a Paladin in the group, so no one can use any missile weapons and of course the DM keeps having us surprised at maximum range and we get shot to pieces before we can close to melee and we cannot run because we are slower than they are. We are starting to hope the Paladin buys the farm so we can use our missile weapons. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Dec 30, 2019 17:04:11 GMT -5
For the most part, 5e has amazing kits that inspire players and function well in relation to the other players, until we get to Thieves. Perhaps it is just me, I've never been a fan of Assassin, but reading that description, it doesn't sound like an archetype, it sounds like a specific NPC. Also, the class doesn't look like it functions well (read- at all) with cooperative play. It could just be me! I love playing thieves, but I play them weird apparently. It isn't just the Assassin build, but all of the rogue progression paths seem to reinforce rogues as evil characters, which they don't have to be. Where are the Trouble-shooters? The charlatan? The scouts? Granted, I only have the PHB, and I assume that better rogues have been invented, but I don't own them, and I'm a bit reluctant to create content for a system that I haven't much experience playing with yet. I suppose that I can stomach one of the kits, but that assassin. That really is a waste of space for me. I have never allowed Assassins and I often do not have Thieves in my game. That is why I am spreading the Thieving abilities across the other classes as was the case before Thieves were added in Greyhawk, I am just making it explicit instead of implicit. Scouts are to me just a focus that a fighter can have. But I agree with you that for 5E there seems to have been major cognitive dissonance when it came to doing the Rogue write-ups. Of course, if you consider who the so-called representatives of "old school" were in writing 5E perhaps it is understandable the way it appears to have been messed up. Neither one of them were representing me in anyway. |
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Post by ripx187 on Dec 30, 2019 19:03:00 GMT -5
For the most part, 5e has amazing kits that inspire players and function well in relation to the other players, until we get to Thieves. Perhaps it is just me, I've never been a fan of Assassin, but reading that description, it doesn't sound like an archetype, it sounds like a specific NPC. Also, the class doesn't look like it functions well (read- at all) with cooperative play. It could just be me! I love playing thieves, but I play them weird apparently. It isn't just the Assassin build, but all of the rogue progression paths seem to reinforce rogues as evil characters, which they don't have to be. Where are the Trouble-shooters? The charlatan? The scouts? Granted, I only have the PHB, and I assume that better rogues have been invented, but I don't own them, and I'm a bit reluctant to create content for a system that I haven't much experience playing with yet. I suppose that I can stomach one of the kits, but that assassin. That really is a waste of space for me. I have never allowed Assassins and I often do not have Thieves in my game. That is why I am spreading the Thieving abilities across the other classes as was the case before Thieves were added in Greyhawk, I am just making it explicit instead of implicit. Scouts are to me just a focus that a fighter can have. But I agree with you that for 5E there seems to have been major cognitive dissonance when it came to doing the Rogue write-ups. Of course, if you consider who the so-called representatives of "old school" were in writing 5E perhaps it is understandable the way it appears to have been messed up. Neither one of them were representing me in anyway. Rogues come pretty late in the chapter for classes, and thus far I am pleased with the system and confident in my ability to play in the way that I want to. In regards to 5e kits, these things are far superior and meaningful to anything presented in 2e. I like how they grow and offer choices without really changing the language of the game. Pathfinder always seemed like a nightmare of options to me, but I think that this strikes a good balance. Assassins. I have talked to a couple of guys who could actually do things with the class and make good arguments for why they can make excellent player characters, but all I ever see is that dorky comedic evil-doer who thinks that they're cool. I put this class up there with the monk as it forces some limitations upon the DM and the world. I just find it disruptive. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Dec 30, 2019 20:51:39 GMT -5
As you get more familiar with 5E, maybe you could post a kit or two or three of your own for Rogues!
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Post by hengest on Dec 31, 2019 10:10:00 GMT -5
Paladins can't hang out with missile-users??
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Post by ripx187 on Dec 31, 2019 12:47:56 GMT -5
Too many people play Lawful Good as Lawful Stupid. Destroying the agents of evil is the highest priority, we don't turn into our enemies, but we don't place unrealistic expectations upon our party either.
I have no idea why that paladin believes that missiles are evil. I can see them being a cowards weapon, and him saying as much but he wouldn't punish his fellows for using them.
A prime ability of the class is Wisdom, this path which he appears to be on is not wise.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Dec 31, 2019 14:53:15 GMT -5
Paladins can't hang out with missile-users?? Not in this guys game. Although he has many gods only one is allowed for Paladins and that one prohibits the Paladin from associating with missile weapon users and he sacrifice missile weapons.It disrupted the party for a while too and is a great hindrance. The DM is creative but a bit out there. I would restart my game if I were up to it. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Dec 31, 2019 15:04:00 GMT -5
Too many people play Lawful Good as Lawful Stupid. Destroying the agents of evil is the highest priority, we don't turn into our enemies, but we don't place unrealistic expectations upon our party either. I have no idea why that paladin believes that missiles are evil. I can see them being a cowards weapon, and him saying as much but he wouldn't punish his fellows for using them. A prime ability of the class is Wisdom, this path which he appears to be on is not wise. It is a DM thing, I think he does not like Paladins so he creates penalties for playing one IMO.
IMO Paladin should play up Wisdom in a 2E game, in OD&D the only prime ability is Charisma and that should shine. Yeah, I dispise Lawful Stupid, not old school at all. IMC I give Paladins a lot more leeway to be pragmatic. It is about destroying evil, not being a jerk to the rest of the party.
It was never a problem in college because we had a 90% Lawful group and the only neutral were the thieves and ocassionally a magic-user. The Paladin tolerated them because of the scouting function that they played. Which this DM also seems to oppose, we have tried having theives scout and they always die when they try it.
So the three oldest of us plot to steal a march on the DM.  But I think we are going to have to let the Paladin die so we can get our missile weapons back. Right now we are trying to get several characters up another level and get the party better armed and armor. 2/3 of the magic armor no one can wear and we get magic weapons that no one has skills for. He gives us stuff that seems out of place for his world at times. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Dec 31, 2019 15:04:36 GMT -5
But back to the topic, do you have ideas for Thief Kits?
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Post by ripx187 on Jan 1, 2020 0:15:01 GMT -5
I'm still reading the rulebook. They've got these Characteristics that you can pick which would modify the thief class nicely. I wish that we had this kind of stuff when I started! I didn't even know what role-playing was.
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But I think we are going to have to let the Paladin die so we can get our missile weapons back. Right now we are trying to get several characters up another level and get the party better armed and armor. 2/3 of the magic armor no one can wear and we get magic weapons that no one has skills for. He gives us stuff that seems out of place for his world at times.