Gearing Up The Thief

[Deleted]

I don't like assassins as PCs. But I think limiting the thief to back-stabbing and picking pockets is a bad idea. So how about expanding this class to be a bit more versatile? I see thieves taking a couple of career paths.

1. Thief-Acrobat

2.  Archer

3.  Bard

The thief-acrobat would be the closest to a RAW thief, with some added skills similar to AD&D's UA. The archer would be a character adept at infiltration and intelligence gathering, with skill at missile attacks. The bard would be capable of magic of a rather random nature, untrained and rather unpredictable with these abilities.

I'm just running this up the flagpole to see if anyone salutes it.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

May 21, 2019 15:37:12 GMT -5 @akatonbo said:

I don't like assassins as PCs. But I think limiting the thief to back-stabbing and picking pockets is a bad idea. So how about expanding this class to be a bit more versatile? I see thieves taking a couple of career paths.

1. Thief-Acrobat

2.  Archer

3.  Bard

The thief-acrobat would be the closest to a RAW thief, with some added skills similar to AD&D's UA. The archer would be a character adept at infiltration and intelligence gathering, with skill at missile attacks. The bard would be capable of magic of a rather random nature, untrained and rather unpredictable with these abilities.

I'm just running this up the flagpole to see if anyone salutes it.

I  do not like thieves in RAW because for me back-stabbing is downright evil (and cowardly to boot) while picking pockets is more neutral or chaotic and I do not like the class name "thief". I also agree that they should be more versatile and not be a wash at combat.

I have considered going with Bards as a complete replacement for thieves and may try to do a complete writeup for that. I would remove backstabbing for a PC Bard since evil characters are not something I want in my game, but I would add the acrobat ability, infiltration and intelligence gathering ability and the missle attacks as a fighter. Also add in the magic "of a rather random nature, untrained and rather unpredictable with these abilities." I have not looked at UA  for AD&D in quite a while, so I am interested in what you are referencing there. Because they have so many advantages and versatility, I would also make the XP required to advance the steepest of the classes as the Bard is essentially a multi-class character that a human can take. Limit to leather armor.

A note on leather armor and magic, allow magic-users to wear leather, if they are willing (like bards) to accept that all their magic becomes more random and unpredictable. The higher the higher the level of the spell the more unperdictable.

[ripx187]

I renamed the Thief class to Tradesman, and it is the most common class among NPCs. The Tradesman is a skill based class which typically revolves around a trade but PCs can still play trouble-shooters, scouts, burglars, whatever. I don't use the AD&D thief skill set, instead, the player has to pick what skills he can do well.

Anybody can be an assassin, just like anybody can detect and disarm traps, someone who is skilled at this task has a much easier time and is faster doing it. As a player, this class was my favorite, you gain levels faster than everybody else and there is just something fun about gambling with them. I know that there are critics of the class, but I think that there is room for a skill-based class.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Do you have a writeup of The Tradesman that you could post?

[Deleted]

Thief: not a big fan of the name, either. But rogue is not the best alternative. I've thought of ranger, scout, specialist; labels others have used. But I like your idea of bard encompassing each of the three aspects I've forwarded. Particularly because this gets your typical player away from the ideology these players should be shady, steal from their friends, or in general be underhanded and not to be trusted. Instead the name Bard emphasizes someone who lives by his wits, taking what he knows and using it in ways never before seen.

Back-Stab: I went 'round and 'round with this in my mind. Hearkening back to OD&D:GH's wording I would think of it more as striking silently from behind. It's more along the line of 007 James Bond using a quick-kill to keep a sentry from sounding the alarm. I always thought of Bond as a good guy but close to the grey area with regard to Chaos. I'm still a bit out to sea with this one, but I could see a Bard avoiding a face-to-face "fair" fight for a quick kill.

Acrobatic Skills from UA: basically? Circus performer skills such as tumbling, tight-rope walking, and pole vaulting. I don't see these getting a lot of use in a campaign, but they could be used for great effect in the right situation. I mostly like these for the flavor, a fun addition to the class that doesn't overpower thieves.

Leather Armor: again, an issue I wrestle with. Early editions of Tunnels & Trolls had Wizards use their STR to cast spells. Though it was never stated as such, it seemed a great way to encourage a Wizard to encumber themselves as little as possible.

[Deleted]

I'd like to see your ideas for the Tradesman as well.

[ripx187]

Thanks, guys! You know, I could have sworn that I already wrote this up but now I can't find it. It might have been something that I wrote up in draft and never published, I do that a lot. 


I don't think that backstab is evil, no more evil than any other death and it is difficult to successfully pull off. If you fail to kill the target, you are armed with a dagger and chances are, at the end of your PC's story. The conditions have to be right to use it, and instead of a dagger, you can use a blackjack and knock them out. A professional does not kill and prefers to be a ghost. In and out, with nobody being none the wiser; but it really depends on the law of the land. If thieves are killed on sight, leave no witnesses; but a burglary charge is preferred over a murder.

[Deleted]

May 21, 2019 18:28:50 GMT -5 ripx187 said:

I don't think that backstab is evil, no more evil than any other death and it is difficult to successfully pull off.

I think it feels a bit evil to many of us because a lot of Americans were raised with the idea only a fair fight is just and honorable. If you have a beef with someone you call them out, square up, and duke it out. You don't bushwhack 'em and you don't have help (unless your opponent does, too), and you don't use a weapon if your opponent doesn't have one. This, in turn, has informed our opinions on Law versus Chaos. Add to that thieves are Neutral or Chaos only in many editions of the game? You can hardly not think of backstab as Chaotic.

[ripx187]

I think that the move came from Lord of the Rings, when Meridoc Took backstabbed the Witch King. Meri refused to be left behind with the women and children, he wanted to fight along with the other men to defend his people, and his way of life. The fact that he and he alone was the brave one who attacked the mightiest Ring Wraith says something about his character. Meri wasn't evil, nor was he in any way chaotic. The army which he sought to join rejected him, prior to becoming a hero, Meri was the one that was the voice of reason and a dependable hobbit. A great character! 


I am afraid that I can get a bit carried away when it comes to discussing Lord of the Rings, so I'll stop now

[The Perilous Dreamer]

May 21, 2019 19:14:07 GMT -5 ripx187 said:

I think that the move came from Lord of the Rings, when Meridoc Took backstabbed the Witch King. Meri refused to be left behind with the women and children, he wanted to fight along with the other men to defend his people, and his way of life. The fact that he and he alone was the brave one who attacked the mightiest Ring Wraith says something about his character. Meri wasn't evil, nor was he in any way chaotic. The army which he sought to join rejected him, prior to becoming a hero, Meri was the one that was the voice of reason and a dependable hobbit. A great character! 


I am afraid that I can get a bit carried away when it comes to discussing Lord of the Rings, so I'll stop now

I never connected that to the thief backstab ability. I used thieves in college once we started using Greyhawk and the thief characters used it as a standard move. I did not connect backstabbing an orc to backstabbing the Witch King.

[Deleted]

Just taking a stab at Bard magic.

First of all? While Dexterity is a very good prime requisite for this class, I think Charisma is the better choice. I would offset this by limiting the number of special hirelings the bard can employ due to high CHA. Limit him to half the usual number, perhaps; and only one or two apprentices.

Next, I would allow a Bard to do anything an original 1977 trilogy Jedi could do: mind-trick, distracting noise, telekinesis, sense enemy, etc. Maybe a few things from the prequels as well: burst of speed or enhanced acrobatics. Low level stuff, perhaps, but very useful if employed shrewdly. He would need to be able to speak and the target of these effects would need to be able to understand the bard. Bonus for using a musical instrument. In fact, I might even allow a chance for music to sway the target even if he were she can’t understand the bard’s words.

Last of all? Allow the Bard the chance to re-create illusion spells as if he were an Illusionist one level below his power level. He can do these fairly reliably, I would only give a small chance of failure or misfire. Bards can also re-create magic user spells as if he were an MU two levels below their current bard level. These I would give a higher chance of either failing outright or misfiring in some interesting way.

Just a few ideas.

[mao]

May 21, 2019 15:37:12 GMT -5 @akatonbo said:

I don't like assassins as PCs. But I think limiting the thief to back-stabbing and picking pockets is a bad idea. So how about expanding this class to be a bit more versatile? I see thieves taking a couple of career paths.

1. Thief-Acrobat

2.  Archer

3.  Bard

The thief-acrobat would be the closest to a RAW thief, with some added skills similar to AD&D's UA. The archer would be a character adept at infiltration and intelligence gathering, with skill at missile attacks. The bard would be capable of magic of a rather random nature, untrained and rather unpredictable with these abilities.

I'm just running this up the flagpole to see if anyone salutes it.

I like anything that adds more classes to OD&D

[El Borak]

This smells like a project thread, which hopefully will generate mutlituple writeups.

[ripx187]

I think that fiddling with the thief is part of the OD&D experience. It's been established now, but nobody is really happy with the laws that govern it, though it is still a solid class! Probably the last really great innovation of the game. I can't think of any other purely unique class that has actually been something different to play that isn't just a mash-up of the other classes. It's been over forty years and still nothing. That says something about the overall design and theme of what the thief offers to the game.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

May 24, 2019 23:37:29 GMT -5 ripx187 said:

I think that fiddling with the thief is part of the OD&D experience. It's been established now, but nobody is really happy with the laws that govern it, though it is still a solid class! Probably the last really great innovation of the game. I can't think of any other purely unique class that has actually been something different to play that isn't just a mash-up of the other classes. It's been over forty years and still nothing. That says something about the overall design and theme of what the thief offers to the game.

I think we all want to re-write it, because instinctively we know somethng does not quite fit. So we keep tinkering. Up above I agreed with replacing "thief" with "bard" and I think you can do variations off of that tailored to each player. More Gray Mouser, so a little magic and a better fighter.

I like the part about working with the player to create the character. OD&D is about having choices, not making one size fits all cookie cutter characters. Bitd when I began, their were no one size fits all cookie cutter characters, while we did roll 3d6 in order and used just the original three classes to began with, all of our characters were very distincty different from one another. To those who say, "All fighting-men (etc) are all alike, my answer is "Only if you choose to play them that way.

[mao]

May 21, 2019 15:37:12 GMT -5 @akatonbo said:

I don't like assassins as PCs. But I think limiting the thief to back-stabbing and picking pockets is a bad idea. So how about expanding this class to be a bit more versatile? I see thieves taking a couple of career paths.

1. Thief-Acrobat

2.  Archer

3.  Bard

The thief-acrobat would be the closest to a RAW thief, with some added skills similar to AD&D's UA. The archer would be a character adept at infiltration and intelligence gathering, with skill at missile attacks. The bard would be capable of magic of a rather random nature, untrained and rather unpredictable with these abilities.

I'm just running this up the flagpole to see if anyone salutes it.

I am a huge fan of backstab for thieves, though I agree that pick pockets is a potential problem

[ripx187]

Jun 1, 2019 8:31:12 GMT -5 mao said:

May 21, 2019 15:37:12 GMT -5 @akatonbo said:

I don't like assassins as PCs. But I think limiting the thief to back-stabbing and picking pockets is a bad idea. So how about expanding this class to be a bit more versatile? I see thieves taking a couple of career paths.

1. Thief-Acrobat

2.  Archer

3.  Bard

The thief-acrobat would be the closest to a RAW thief, with some added skills similar to AD&D's UA. The archer would be a character adept at infiltration and intelligence gathering, with skill at missile attacks. The bard would be capable of magic of a rather random nature, untrained and rather unpredictable with these abilities.

I'm just running this up the flagpole to see if anyone salutes it.

I am a huge fan of backstab for thieves, though I agree that pick pockets is a potential problem

Pick pockets, I use this roll for sleight of hand, it allows you to arm yourself and be ready for combat with a chance to surprise because they believe that your hands are up. It lets you take things while others are watching you, perform simple illusions to entertain and distract others not to mention pass yourself off as something that you aren't. Pick Pockets allows you to hide things on your person, such as picks when you and your party have been thrown in jail. One can also pass things to other characters unnoticed. It is a workhorse ability that is only limited by your imagination.

As a player, I've never stolen anything from my party, unless I had asked to have it first and that was rare. Under the 2e rules, a thief gains most of his XP from GP value earned, so I have slipped a few high-value items from chests directly into my pocket upon opening the them, but chances are I was the one that took all of the risks to get to the said treasure, so I feel that I had earned it. As a thief, once I have the XP I can fence the item and any items given to me for gold. 

I suppose that the rule on using the skill is that you have to announce what you are doing, the players know that I lifted a gem or two before I reported the chest to the company. 

As far as the ability goes, picking pockets can keep a company out of trouble. There have been a few cases where we got to a town with no money on us, a few hours at the market and I can usually get enough money to afford lodging and a decent meal for everyone. It also allows the player to be non-violent. Instead of killing an NPC for a map that he's carrying, you just lift it without him noticing, no need to harm him! The old rules always forced thief characters to be of evil alignment, but they don't have to be. Picking someone's pockets is usually more risky for the person doing it than for the target. 

Once I picked a guys pocket, he had children and I just wanted a bit of money to pay for something or other. I found way too much money in his bag, and figured that this was probably everything that he had, I just took what I needed, found him again and gave it back without him knowing. The DM was shocked, and my fellow players made fun of me, but I wanted to play a good alignment. 

The thief is no different than any other class, you can play the bloodthirsty thug, but that is just one shade. If you steal from your party members they aren't going to want to play with you and that should be incentive enough to not do it. D&D is about cooperation and playing as a team, the thief is an important part of that team.