Mystara/Known World as an OD&D World

[Mr Darke]

Reading this article got me to thinking that the Known World setting may just qualify as an OD&D world. Given that the original world appeared in a proto form around '74 it does predate AD&D and 'Basic' D&D. Also it has many markers, even in the later Gazetteer series there were many OD&Disms though some were due to Classic D&Ds heritage as an offshoot of OD&D. I am thinking that we may have missed an entire world that existed almost from the beginning and may have been overlooked by many 0e fans. 

Now I will admit that I do have a bias as I feel 'Classic' D&D is actually a later edition of OD&D. Also given Arneson's endorsement of the Rules Cyclopedia as everything needed to run OD&D; I found a new love for 'classic' D&D and do consider it a variant of the original game. 

I just wanted to share my thoughts on the matter.

[Mr Darke]

I had a second thought on this: The Known World later added Blackmoor into the fold as part of the setting by Dave Arneson himself. Now though it was not originally part of the setting; it does add some of the old magic to the setting as a whole.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Mr Darke that was a great article you linked to. I've never owned any of the Known World stuff, but it is really interesting. I was in Athens at Ohio University at the same time also playing OD&D, but I came from a rural area instead of the city life.

[True Black Raven]

I'd agree it's an OD&D world.

[Mr Darke]

Thanks. I had the thought it could be considered one when I saw when it was originally designed and that it saw play as a homebrew before it went 'corporate'. Yes there were changes made for the Classic D&D paradigm but all of the originals that were published saw that. And if you dig deep enough you can see it kept some of the gonzo ideas that early D&D saw.

That's why I threw the question out there; it has the history, pedigree and other marks of being an OD&D world except for in name.

[Mighty Darci]

Do you have plans to game in Mystara or you are going to use some of the ideas in your own game world?

[Mr Darke]

Apr 23, 2019 14:51:45 GMT -5 Mighty Darci said:

Do you have plans to game in Mystara or you are going to use some of the ideas in your own game world

A bit of both actually. I am teaching my son and my GF's daughter and we are using BFRPG and I have always liked the setting. I am using the bare bones descriptions given in X1 and the RC along with a few Wiki entries. From there I am going to world build. Might even try to shoehorn my Karstlands stuff in.

[ripx187]

I am pretty sure that all of the major fantasy settings, all the way up to Forgotten Realms, were began with OD&D and evolved. Inventive DMs who stuck to their worlds and enjoyed building and tinkering, these people are rare. If The Perilous Dreamer had been able to publish Ruins of Murkhill as a "Box Set" it would have been updated to the current ruleset, have different writers and developers rework large sections so that modules could be marketed. His Ruins would still be played with his personal variant rules, but everybody else would use whatever.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

I think that is pretty much the way it works. But IMO people ended up giving up too much control to the corporation. To not be able to still publish using your own names for things is too much IMO.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

May 15, 2019 22:16:04 GMT -5 Mr Darke said:

Apr 23, 2019 14:51:45 GMT -5 Mighty Darci said:

Do you have plans to game in Mystara or you are going to use some of the ideas in your own game world

A bit of both actually. I am teaching my son and my GF's daughter and we are using BFRPG and I have always liked the setting. I am using the bare bones descriptions given in X1 and the RC along with a few Wiki entries. From there I am going to world build. Might even try to shoehorn my Karstlands stuff in.

Awesome!

[Mighty Darci]

May 15, 2019 22:16:04 GMT -5 Mr Darke said:

Apr 23, 2019 14:51:45 GMT -5 Mighty Darci said:

Do you have plans to game in Mystara or you are going to use some of the ideas in your own game world

A bit of both actually. I am teaching my son and my GF's daughter and we are using BFRPG and I have always liked the setting. I am using the bare bones descriptions given in X1 and the RC along with a few Wiki entries. From there I am going to world build. Might even try to shoehorn my Karstlands stuff in.

Exalt for being a good dad and boyfriend!

[True Black Raven]

I would not really buy anyones world in a boxed set, but I would be interested in your variant rules and bestiary.

[Mr Darke]

So for a quick rundown of how this is shaping up:

The rules are BFRPG with a few variant rules taken or modified from the content made by fans. There are no class or race add ons at this time to keep things easy to learn. One thing to note on the houserules/variants is that they are not to make the game closer to any D&D edition. Rather, they are my personal preferences.

As for setting I am leaning toward just using The Known World/Mystara based on the sources I mentioned above. I great YouTube Series exists called Welcome to Mystara that has helped in that decision. Making it just a matter of exactly where on the world I want to run. The adventures are going to be canned with some of my tweaks. I have picked up several of the BFRPG print ones and am piecing a campaign together out of them. This saves time and makes it much easier on me.

This also serves a larger purpose in that I have been looking at BFRPG as the 'engine' for my Kastlands stuff. The free as pdf and cheap in print nature makes it accessible to the younger and less financially capable players in buying retro or new editions. As well, I find it a good adaptation of the B/X rules. Add in the modular nature and I find something I really like.

So that's the nutshell version. If there is further interest I will open up a thread on my forum for the idea tagged as either BFRPG or Mystara.

[ripx187]

Here is a live link for Mr. Welch's Welcome to Mysteria web series.

[Mr Darke]

Here is where I am placing my Mystara campaign notes. Part of this is to show how i world build in an existing setting. Be warned this is not going to be standard fantasy and the rules could be considered a middle road between old and new school. 

[Deleted]

Thanks for your insights Mr Darke. They have helped revitlizing my love for one of my favourite settings. I also really like the article you posted. I had already read it some weeks ago, but might give it another read! About the fact that Basic D&D is a development from OD&D, I always thought the same: appart from the skill adjustments, I think there's little change mechanically. That said, it has a different 'feel' to it than OD&D, if only from the artwork in the BECMI books (the ones I have). I still play OD&D (except for one campaing which is 2e... my friends' fault, not mine!) and like the way everything from the early days looks like. It seems the lack of systems and sourcebooks made everyone more creative. And the style... I still use Courier New for all the stuff I write for my campaign world 

As for using BFRPG, I've never used it, but I think it's a good choice. The ammount of support that game has, the fact that all of it is free and the quality of it all is what I would desire myself for any system out there!

[Deleted]

May 16, 2019 13:36:19 GMT -5 ripx187 said:

I am pretty sure that all of the major fantasy settings, all the way up to Forgotten Realms, were began with OD&D and evolved. Inventive DMs who stuck to their worlds and enjoyed building and tinkering, these people are rare. If The Perilous Dreamer had been able to publish Ruins of Murkhill as a "Box Set" it would have been updated to the current ruleset, have different writers and developers rework large sections so that modules could be marketed. His Ruins would still be played with his personal variant rules, but everybody else would use whatever.

And as far as I know the Forgotten Realms were began even before D&D! Greenwood started writing short stories for it when he was like 6 years old, so that's like in the 60's.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

May 25, 2019 3:22:26 GMT -5 @baldorar said:

May 16, 2019 13:36:19 GMT -5 ripx187 said:

I am pretty sure that all of the major fantasy settings, all the way up to Forgotten Realms, were began with OD&D and evolved. Inventive DMs who stuck to their worlds and enjoyed building and tinkering, these people are rare. If The Perilous Dreamer had been able to publish Ruins of Murkhill as a "Box Set" it would have been updated to the current ruleset, have different writers and developers rework large sections so that modules could be marketed. His Ruins would still be played with his personal variant rules, but everybody else would use whatever.

And as far as I know the Forgotten Realms were began even before D&D! Greenwood started writing short stories for it when he was like 6 years old, so that's like in the 60's.

Yeah, Ed Greenwood home Forgotten Realms dates way back. He and a couple of other WotC people were here in Columbus to speak on a weekday evening about 8 years ago IIRC and a friend that knew I was into D&D found out about it and got me a ticket and took me to it. They were all interesting but Greenwood was great to listen to, lots of information and I could see that he is a great DM. (I also got the impression that if he ran WotC that the direction they were taking with things would be completely different).

[ripx187]

May 25, 2019 21:18:49 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

May 25, 2019 3:22:26 GMT -5 @baldorar said:

And as far as I know the Forgotten Realms were began even before D&D! Greenwood started writing short stories for it when he was like 6 years old, so that's like in the 60's.

Yeah, Ed Greenwood home Forgotten Realms dates way back. He and a couple of other WotC people were here in Columbus to speak on a weekday evening about 8 years ago IIRC and a friend that knew I was into D&D found out about it and got me a ticket and took me to it. They were all interesting but Greenwood was great to listen to, lots of information and I could see that he is a great DM. (I also got the impression that if he ran WotC that the direction they were taking with things would be completely different).

I would had prefered Greenwood, that is a great What If.

[Mighty Darci]

I wonder how Greenwood feels about the treatment Forgotten Realms has gotten in print? I have a feeling that most creators that deal with corporate suits have a bittersweet relationship with it.

[Deleted]

Jun 7, 2019 0:24:46 GMT -5 Mighty Darci said:

I wonder how Greenwood feels about the treatment Forgotten Realms has gotten in print? I have a feeling that most creators that deal with corporate suits have a bittersweet relationship with it.

Yes. For what I can infere after having read some of his posts on the Candlekeep boards around two years ago, it seems he's not that happy about many of the decisions they took back then at TSR. Don't even mention what they've been doing at WotC. Of course, the problem with it is that he can't say that much, since he still earns the pennies from them.

Some things that make me think this way are the following:

1. He makes the difference between the 'Realms home campaing' and the 'published Realms'
2. He mentions once or twice that the 'plublished Realms' are too magic heavy
3. His campaigns are more on the dark and gritty side, having drawn mostly stuff from Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser and Conan for the creation of his world
4. He actually dislikes using real-world cultures directly as fantasy cultures (fantasy Japan, fantasy Mongolia, fantasy America, etc.)
5. He doesn't like big events where deities meddle with worldy affairs, like the 'Time of Troubles', the so-called 'Realms-shaking events'. His gods are more of the 'absent' or 'distant' sort, that can only be contacted through rituals, some of them involving the use of drugs and the inhaling of vapours
6. Therefore, his campaign is a slow-running one. In his group, they are playing in the 1350s (when the old grey box is set, by the way), before any of those 'Realms-shaking events' having happened
7. The high-level characters in his campaign are more akin to those as presented in the grey box, instead of to those presented in the latter (from 2e on) products TSR and WotC published
8. In relation with the last two points, after having been playing since the late 70s, when AD&D 1e came out, the characters in his campaign are around 8th level! They enjoy the role-playing, solving mysteries and exploration more than the combat, the mechanics and the powergaming side of the game. So it seems his games are more a sandbox like game than anything else

And, not related to the subject at hand, but out of curiosity, he says they voted for the rule set they were going to use for the rest of thei campaign (the same and only one his group has been in since the beginning) and they voted for a 'loose version' of 2e.


Additionally, I recommend this article:

trollhomework.blogspot.com/2009/09/1st-edition-forgotten-realms.html

And along the same lines:

grognardia.blogspot.com/2009/01/in-praise-of-ed-greenwood.html

[ripx187]

Jun 7, 2019 1:23:47 GMT -5 @baldorar said:

Jun 7, 2019 0:24:46 GMT -5 Mighty Darci said:

I wonder how Greenwood feels about the treatment Forgotten Realms has gotten in print? I have a feeling that most creators that deal with corporate suits have a bittersweet relationship with it.

Yes. For what I can infere after having read some of his posts on the Candlekeep boards around two years ago, it seems he's not that happy about many of the decisions they took back then at TSR. Don't even mention what they've been doing at WotC. Of course, the problem with it is that he can't say that much, since he still earns the pennies from them.

Some things that make me think this way are the following:

1. He makes the difference between the 'Realms home campaing' and the 'published Realms'
2. He mentions once or twice that the 'plublished Realms' are too magic heavy
3. His campaigns are more on the dark and gritty side, having drawn mostly stuff from Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser and Conan for the creation of his world
4. He actually dislikes using real-world cultures directly as fantasy cultures (fantasy Japan, fantasy Mongolia, fantasy America, etc.)
5. He doesn't like big events where deities meddle with worldy affairs, like the 'Time of Troubles', the so-called 'Realms-shaking events'. His gods are more of the 'absent' or 'distant' sort, that can only be contacted through rituals, some of them involving the use of drugs and the inhaling of vapours
6. Therefore, his campaign is a slow-running one. In his group, they are playing in the 1350s (when the old grey box is set, by the way), before any of those 'Realms-shaking events' having happened
7. The high-level characters in his campaign are more akin to those as presented in the grey box, instead of to those presented in the latter (from 2e on) products TSR and WotC published
8. In relation with the last two points, after having been playing since the late 70s, when AD&D 1e came out, the characters in his campaign are around 8th level! They enjoy the role-playing, solving mysteries and exploration more than the combat, the mechanics and the powergaming side of the game. So it seems his games are more a sandbox like game than anything else

And, not related to the subject at hand, but out of curiosity, he says they voted for the rule set they were going to use for the rest of thei campaign (the same and only one his group has been in since the beginning) and they voted for a 'loose version' of 2e.


Additionally, I recommend this article:

trollhomework.blogspot.com/2009/09/1st-edition-forgotten-realms.html

And along the same lines:

grognardia.blogspot.com/2009/01/in-praise-of-ed-greenwood.html

Excellent post! I have heard Greenwood complaining about his Eleminster character's portrayal in the books. I have read a couple of his novels, they are very good!

[Admin Pete]

His players are really lucky to have been playing with him for 40+ years.

[Deleted]

Jun 7, 2019 12:07:23 GMT -5 ripx187 said:

Jun 7, 2019 1:23:47 GMT -5 @baldorar said:

Yes. For what I can infere after having read some of his posts on the Candlekeep boards around two years ago, it seems he's not that happy about many of the decisions they took back then at TSR. Don't even mention what they've been doing at WotC. Of course, the problem with it is that he can't say that much, since he still earns the pennies from them.

Some things that make me think this way are the following:

1. He makes the difference between the 'Realms home campaing' and the 'published Realms'
2. He mentions once or twice that the 'plublished Realms' are too magic heavy
3. His campaigns are more on the dark and gritty side, having drawn mostly stuff from Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser and Conan for the creation of his world
4. He actually dislikes using real-world cultures directly as fantasy cultures (fantasy Japan, fantasy Mongolia, fantasy America, etc.)
5. He doesn't like big events where deities meddle with worldy affairs, like the 'Time of Troubles', the so-called 'Realms-shaking events'. His gods are more of the 'absent' or 'distant' sort, that can only be contacted through rituals, some of them involving the use of drugs and the inhaling of vapours
6. Therefore, his campaign is a slow-running one. In his group, they are playing in the 1350s (when the old grey box is set, by the way), before any of those 'Realms-shaking events' having happened
7. The high-level characters in his campaign are more akin to those as presented in the grey box, instead of to those presented in the latter (from 2e on) products TSR and WotC published
8. In relation with the last two points, after having been playing since the late 70s, when AD&D 1e came out, the characters in his campaign are around 8th level! They enjoy the role-playing, solving mysteries and exploration more than the combat, the mechanics and the powergaming side of the game. So it seems his games are more a sandbox like game than anything else

And, not related to the subject at hand, but out of curiosity, he says they voted for the rule set they were going to use for the rest of thei campaign (the same and only one his group has been in since the beginning) and they voted for a 'loose version' of 2e.


Additionally, I recommend this article:

trollhomework.blogspot.com/2009/09/1st-edition-forgotten-realms.html

And along the same lines:

grognardia.blogspot.com/2009/01/in-praise-of-ed-greenwood.html

Excellent post! I have heard Greenwood complaining about his Eleminster character's portrayal in the books. I have read a couple of his novels, they are very good!

Thank you, @ripx178. I haven't read any of the Elminster novels, although they're on my wishlist. I don't know if he didn't like how he was portrayed in the different products, but I know he didn't like him appearing in every single product that there was. For him, Elminster was like a linking figure between our (real) Earth and the Realms. He was his guide to Faerun. The one who traveled through portals to come to our planet and with whom Ed would talk for hours about what lies in the world of Abeir-Toril.

I think his was a wonderful idea full of inspiration.