|
|
Post by bravewolf on Oct 17, 2018 22:56:43 GMT -5
Dragon 10-14 = 0 :-(
|
|
|
|
Post by ripx187 on Oct 18, 2018 8:20:46 GMT -5
Wrong, it's -4  |
|
|
|
Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Oct 18, 2018 9:59:43 GMT -5
I've noticed that much of the early Dragon magazines have a lot of short fiction interspersed with rules content and general gaming columns. |
|
|
|
Post by bravewolf on Oct 18, 2018 19:29:20 GMT -5
I've noticed that much of the early Dragon magazines have a lot of short fiction interspersed with rules content and general gaming columns. Yeah, in that respect, older issues of The Dragon are more like the zines and amateur press associations of the time. In fact, quite a few Alarums & Excursions contributors also wrote articles for The Dragon in those days: John Pickens, Lew Pulsipher, John Boardman, to name a few. |
|
|
|
Post by bravewolf on Oct 19, 2018 9:45:04 GMT -5
Up through about issue 30 now - still no mention of the old GH campaign. |
|
|
|
Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Oct 19, 2018 11:49:00 GMT -5
Up through about issue 30 now - still no mention of the old GH campaign. Looks like that avenue is a dud, it seems Rob's product maybe the only way to get any serious insight into the proto-Greyhawk Great Kingdom setting. Thanks for the work on researching bravewolf I really appreciate it. |
|
|
|
Post by bravewolf on Oct 19, 2018 11:56:46 GMT -5
No prob, gang - I am glad to help.
What I think set in rapidly with TSR is that EGG probably had an inkling by this time that he'd publish a major Greyhawk supplement to follow the three core AD&D books, so why give away free information on the setting? Just a guess.
|
|
|
|
Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Oct 19, 2018 14:59:29 GMT -5
No prob, gang - I am glad to help. What I think set in rapidly with TSR is that EGG probably had an inkling by this time that he'd publish a major Greyhawk supplement to follow the three core AD&D books, so why give away free information on the setting? Just a guess. I wouldn't be surprised either if that was the case bravewolf. Here is a quote from an article from before the Greyhawk Folio was to be released [Dragon #37 May 1980 Page 10 by Gary Gygax]: It basically states the world was in constant flux until it was published, that even the initial maps mutated over time. I think the best bet if one cannot skim through and mine the various Q&A threads by EGG & Rob Kuntz or Rob's DVD (especially the $99+ versions) if anyone owns a copy - then we could create a Great Kingdom setting true to its roots. Otherwise it might be best to either just take one of the maps and do your own thing with it or take the GH Folio and run with that. |
|
|
|
Post by ripx187 on Oct 19, 2018 18:51:14 GMT -5
This is great work guys! From what you've found, and didn't find, one can start making some theories about how Gary's mind worked. From earlier statements, we believe that Gygax was stunned that people were willing to buy modules. Perhaps the fun for him as the DM and as a player was creating the world? That to him, this was the game? Being able to watch as a tiny idea grew into something larger and taking on a life of its own? The Greyhawk Box Set was extremely detailed, I wonder how much of that was added and figured out just for that product? We know that Rob Kuntz preferred top-down world design, and I did notice that with my own world, once we get to a spot these details start becoming apparent to us.
There does seem to be a progression in play which is common. Play starts in a village or city of some kind; the books tell you to place the dungeon out in the wilderness yet from published examples (I include Forgotten Realms in this baseline) only Arneson did this, it was more common to have the first dungeon in the city itself. I did this too because it gave me time to develop the neighboring states or countries. From there, my mind just went into overdrive, I could see this as a living place now and all of these details and stories start flooding the consciousness. Now politics begin to take shape, and a new level of detail comes into play, we can see beyond the scope of our little maps.
Then we have our working scale, the games themselves. Designing on microlevels, we use what we know but these decisions and alterations made during play become core while everything else we've done is abstract and ever-changing. It might not make sense for something that is in our world map to be so close and we must move it further away or get rid of it completely.
Publishing a map implies that it is finished, but do we really want a finished state? While using published settings, it never fails: I get an idea that I want to explore but there just is no place for it on the map. Greyhawk was more excepting of major to minor changes as there is more open space but Forgotten Realms wasn't. I have mixed feelings about this, and I think that it just depends upon how one's mind works and what they are comfortable. Some folks prefer to lean on established ideas and work well within a given framework, while others struggle. I have always been more apt to draw my own maps than to really stick to a published one. Gygax, I believe, was the same way. Greyhawk was an abstract idea, the only details that were fixed were those developed during play.
How far away did the original party get from the city of Greyhawk? Then you have the issue with the Great Kingdom, wargames aren't as detailed as "D&D" is. It is developed but not as much as a fully immersed area. Do you think that D&D was played in the Great Kingdom? Was Greyhawk a part of that? Was it Gygax's intentions to ignore that area or to develop it? In the box set, the Great Kingdom had the good guys lose, and that was the theme for the rest of the world. This made The Great Kingdom, at least in my mind, undeveloped, though that was the attraction! Yes the world is drawn out and political machines set in place, but it was still up to the user to define everything. Perhaps my own feelings about the theme are just my own? Another reader who is presented with the same material would see something different and thus end up with a different Greyhawk.
|
|
|
|
Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Oct 23, 2018 21:51:30 GMT -5
This is great work guys! From what you've found, and didn't find, one can start making some theories about how Gary's mind worked. From earlier statements, we believe that Gygax was stunned that people were willing to buy modules. Perhaps the fun for him as the DM and as a player was creating the world? That to him, this was the game? Being able to watch as a tiny idea grew into something larger and taking on a life of its own? The Greyhawk Box Set was extremely detailed, I wonder how much of that was added and figured out just for that product? We know that Rob Kuntz preferred top-down world design, and I did notice that with my own world, once we get to a spot these details start becoming apparent to us. There does seem to be a progression in play which is common. Play starts in a village or city of some kind; the books tell you to place the dungeon out in the wilderness yet from published examples (I include Forgotten Realms in this baseline) only Arneson did this, it was more common to have the first dungeon in the city itself. I did this too because it gave me time to develop the neighboring states or countries. From there, my mind just went into overdrive, I could see this as a living place now and all of these details and stories start flooding the consciousness. Now politics begin to take shape, and a new level of detail comes into play, we can see beyond the scope of our little maps. Then we have our working scale, the games themselves. Designing on microlevels, we use what we know but these decisions and alterations made during play become core while everything else we've done is abstract and ever-changing. It might not make sense for something that is in our world map to be so close and we must move it further away or get rid of it completely. Publishing a map implies that it is finished, but do we really want a finished state? While using published settings, it never fails: I get an idea that I want to explore but there just is no place for it on the map. Greyhawk was more excepting of major to minor changes as there is more open space but Forgotten Realms wasn't. I have mixed feelings about this, and I think that it just depends upon how one's mind works and what they are comfortable. Some folks prefer to lean on established ideas and work well within a given framework, while others struggle. I have always been more apt to draw my own maps than to really stick to a published one. Gygax, I believe, was the same way. Greyhawk was an abstract idea, the only details that were fixed were those developed during play. How far away did the original party get from the city of Greyhawk? Then you have the issue with the Great Kingdom, wargames aren't as detailed as "D&D" is. It is developed but not as much as a fully immersed area. Do you think that D&D was played in the Great Kingdom? Was Greyhawk a part of that? Was it Gygax's intentions to ignore that area or to develop it? In the box set, the Great Kingdom had the good guys lose, and that was the theme for the rest of the world. This made The Great Kingdom, at least in my mind, undeveloped, though that was the attraction! Yes the world is drawn out and political machines set in place, but it was still up to the user to define everything. Perhaps my own feelings about the theme are just my own? Another reader who is presented with the same material would see something different and thus end up with a different Greyhawk. From the Dragon column it seems that Gary likely developed Greyhawk into proper setting by late 79 to early 1980 in order to have something new to sell and a place to set AD&D based adventures; which in turn spurred TSR to acquire the Forgotten Realms from Greenwood and have Weis/Hickman develop the Dragonlance adventures and novels, which in turn birthed the Dragonlance setting itself. Modules & settings where just a business decision it seems (& I could be VERY wrong about that). Though both Greyhawk & FR were mapped in general detail there was still room beyond the edges. Initial both settings were wide open & every referee could do as they wished with both settings as there was very little canon lore describing places in either setting. You had a brief outline and in the case of FR, it was purposely written to to be vague to give referees room to make it their own setting. My problem was when TSR started expanding the canon setting with official supplements. Sure you could ignore them & still make both Gh & FR your own, but it became harder especially in players were into the novels and thus expected your GH or FR to be canon too. I had friends into FR and didn't like my plans to go back to 1e FR and cut out the things they loved about the setting. Things were made worse when I no longer wanted to run 5e D&D and wouldn't consider running 3.5 D&D or Pathfinder instead of Swords & Wizardry Complete as I desired. I love both GH & FR, but at the end of the day I prefer their original published forms from the 80s. I plan to split my future campaigns between my own settings and both 1980 GH Folio & 1e Gray Box FR. Both the GH & FR campaigns will utilize B/X D&D, whereas my own settings will be powered by OD&D/Delving Deeper. Back to your post, it seems that the initial campaigns didn't go much further than the Greyhawk City region in both Gary & Rob's campaigns, though Gary did run a Temple of Elemental Evil campaign and I am not sure where that was set. That said the module writers may have help flesh out places in GH mentioned in brief as they developed their products. Did Gary & Rob give them notes to work from? Who knows. |
|
|
|
Post by ripx187 on Oct 24, 2018 18:36:56 GMT -5
From the Dragon column it seems that Gary likely developed Greyhawk into proper setting by late 79 to early 1980 in order to have something new to sell and a place to set AD&D based adventures; which in turn spurred TSR to acquire the Forgotten Realms from Greenwood and have Weis/Hickman develop the Dragonlance adventures and novels, which in turn birthed the Dragonlance setting itself. Modules & settings where just a business decision it seems (& I could be VERY wrong about that). Though both Greyhawk & FR were mapped in general detail there was still room beyond the edges. Initial both settings were wide open & every referee could do as they wished with both settings as there was very little canon lore describing places in either setting. You had a brief outline and in the case of FR, it was purposely written to to be vague to give referees room to make it their own setting. My problem was when TSR started expanding the canon setting with official supplements. Sure you could ignore them & still make both Gh & FR your own, but it became harder especially in players were into the novels and thus expected your GH or FR to be canon too. I had friends into FR and didn't like my plans to go back to 1e FR and cut out the things they loved about the setting. Things were made worse when I no longer wanted to run 5e D&D and wouldn't consider running 3.5 D&D or Pathfinder instead of Swords & Wizardry Complete as I desired. I love both GH & FR, but at the end of the day I prefer their original published forms from the 80s. I plan to split my future campaigns between my own settings and both 1980 GH Folio & 1e Gray Box FR. Both the GH & FR campaigns will utilize B/X D&D, whereas my own settings will be powered by OD&D/Delving Deeper. Back to your post, it seems that the initial campaigns didn't go much further than the Greyhawk City region in both Gary & Rob's campaigns, though Gary did run a Temple of Elemental Evil campaign and I am not sure where that was set. That said the module writers may have help flesh out places in GH mentioned in brief as they developed their products. Did Gary & Rob give them notes to work from? Who knows. From my own research, Forgotten Realms was published for many many reasons, key among them was to publish a complete world per user requests. It was also supposed to coincide with the release of the Second Edition, but this idea was scrapped as it needed to make money, thus Zeb Cook's notes for the 2nd edition were used. I think that it was part of the illusion that 2e was a different product. Forgotten Realms is a more polished product and had more designers working together to make a solid world. The goal being that a player from one game could port his character to another DM's Forgotten Realms and have the same experience. Maybe it worked, maybe it didn't. It definitely allowed TSR to sell more product! They were also able to convince the users that Greyhawk was a generic world, which is amazing to me. I didn't get into either setting until relatively recently, I bought both box sets used and abused on the Internet and ran a couple of games in each setting that always left me bored, and the players weren't all that interested. I learned more about world building and game theory from those original boxes than I ever had before, so the investment wasn't a total loss. Perhaps the players who are so resistant to DM control are victims of a collectors mentality. This expectation of always consuming more and more product really turned me off. How little do we actually need is a more interesting idea to me than turning my brain into some kind of lore master for a world that doesn't exist. |
|
|
|
Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Oct 24, 2018 20:14:30 GMT -5
Well that may be the case to a degree as Cook had started developing 2e AD&D in 87 when they published the original FR campaign box set, it was updated specifically for 2e with a Meta-plot and desire to create numerous sub-settings tied to the overarching meta-storyline rooted in the Time of Troubles. A lot of the changes were made to the setting it seems to fit the new rules and ideas my the in house designers. This is what lost me my support, it took the worlds away from the DM & individual groups and made company based story-line driven development tied in part to the novel lines.
This was not as prevalent in Greyhawk but did occur with the Greyhawk Wars meta-plot storyline and then the living Greyhawk made RPGA adventure league type development occurred or it was intended to. Each player group region was assigned a region in Greyhawk and depending on adventure outcomes and other things tied to Living Greyhawk things were going to potentially impact the Greyhawk setting - if I am remembering it right.
|
|
|
|
Post by ripx187 on Oct 25, 2018 20:39:03 GMT -5
I wrote a pretty lengthy post about this on my blog for those who are interested. It is about Greyhawk's treatment during the 2e days, as well as TSRs marketing plan. |
|
|
|
Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Oct 25, 2018 21:55:32 GMT -5
I wrote a pretty lengthy post about this on my blog for those who are interested. It is about Greyhawk's treatment during the 2e days, as well as TSRs marketing plan. I enjoyed the post Rip, it was a concise and focused idea how TSR in my opinion mismanaged the setting. |
|
|
|
Post by Mr Darke on Oct 31, 2018 18:04:29 GMT -5
Now that inventory and a few other things are over I can get a few words in:
From what I have been reading and from the posts here I am now convinced building the Urhawk is pretty much impossible. That is not a bad thing as we can still get something. This may also be why many discussions tend to retread the same ground. I still thing there is more about the early campaign out there but anything big is probably sitting in a storage building being eaten by mice. That doesn't mean this is a fool's errand; I am just putting it into perspective.
That said, I have ideas now after reading more about this and Arneson's work that will help my work for a long time. I do think we should keep on, but let our imaginations loose a bit to fill in some blanks and show what we have come up with.
I do want to touch on Rip's post. I do agree mostly but I want to comment on a couple things:
Items for Advanced Player's: Speaking entirely on post-Gygax TSR they did exist but in varying quality and very well could have been Greyhawk products but just lacked the name. It boils down to Greyhawk being the Default setting up to the 4e era. Many may be surprised that I would say that but hear me out; FR may have eclipsed GH but it never ended being the default due to how the core books were written. Named spells, artefacts, magic items and such defaulted back to Greyhawk (and Blackmoor?). As well, many of the splat books were generic but always had a Greyhawk tone in them. So as far as splatbooks go; unless otherwise specified all of them were Greyhawk material but it was never advertised.
Knowing that the more advanced or creative among us would either make their own setting or just buy the core box of any setting; the products that expanded campaigns or dealt with world building would have been for them. With them (theoretically) defaulting to Greyhawk this was the advanced material. No, it was not Greyhawk specific and it was pretty underhanded but it was Greyhawk material in my opinion.
They knew they would never hook the older and more creative crowd with meta-plots (unless they were mining for ideas) so they went the splat route to get them to buy. And for me I did buy as I was more interested in expanding my world than I was one that was already created.
As for what I feel could or should have been I will touch on that later in this post.
From the Ashes: This is a tough one. For someone who just got the core set the meta plot was there to get ideas and move on. If you didn't buy the later books you would never notice the whole thing and live in blissful ignorance. Personally I liked FtA if you just do not go too far beyond it and made a few fixes of Sargent's errors. If you never owned a Greyhawk core set it is a great baseline to begin. Yes timeline advancements can be annoying on a new edition of a core set but many, like me, took what I liked and moved on.
TSR's actions as a whole: Bottom line is that TSR was a business and they did exist to make money. Some decisions were based on that and having many eager customers awaiting a new product is a good way. Every company does it and I can't fault them. And we do know the lack of GH support came from not wanting royalties to go to Gygax. Not cool but not uncommon.
The creation of the Realms was a plan to do things to appeal to a common denominator to generate sales. Again I cannot fault them but, edging out the more advanced or hardcore players in lieu of this is not a good practice. As well, being one of the creators of the meta-plot (I'm also looking at FASA here) this did set up things that I think detrimentally affected the hobby but it does create sales and keeps the business going.
Hell even Kask and Gygax knew the above and in one of Tim's interviews he said that they specifically made products for 'twitchers' to make money.
What could/should have been: I'm gonna take a page from Warhammer on this one. The overall setting should have been fleshed out and maybe have a few more hints of a coming war to sell a proper war game alongside D&D. The setting should have worked for both D&D and this game. Later supplements should have been regional and kept the same date and stayed within the baseline of the core set only adding in additional info on that region. Included would have been painting guides for troop types, army strength, orders of battle and typical warband size and composition. Along with the supplements could have been modules and scenarios that could tie together (Start with Emiridy Meadows and then play TOEE) or remain separate.
Unfortunately what it seems we got was the meta idea and another lowest denominator attempt for a fanbase that did not want that much. I don't think it was as much mismanagement as it was misunderstanding what the GH players wanted. It worked with FR so they probably thought it would work again. When the sales did not come you do what any other business does and cut the losses and pull the line. Had they got a team that understood GH better they may have done well.
One last point, Ed Greenwood and others have hinted that TSR and now WOTC has an interesting contract clause with Ed. If they stop producing FR material (in some tellings if they also produce more of another setting than FR) the rights revert to Ed and the cas cow is gone. If this is true then Greenwood is a hell of a negotiator and I applaud him for the amount of cash he may be making on royalties.
All of this is my opinion and half remembered stories so take it with a bit of salt.
|
|
|
|
Post by El Borak on Oct 31, 2018 18:18:14 GMT -5
I wrote a pretty lengthy post about this on my blog for those who are interested. It is about Greyhawk's treatment during the 2e days, as well as TSRs marketing plan. Fascinating blog post! I didn't buy any of the stuff, but it is a very interesting article, good job. |
|
|
|
Post by El Borak on Oct 31, 2018 18:22:31 GMT -5
Now that inventory and a few other things are over I can get a few words in: snip One last point, Ed Greenwood and others have hinted that TSR and now WOTC has an interesting contract clause with Ed. If they stop producing FR material (in some tellings if they also produce more of another setting than FR) the rights revert to Ed and the cas cow is gone. If this is true then Greenwood is a hell of a negotiator and I applaud him for the amount of cash he may be making on royalties. All of this is my opinion and half remembered stories so take it with a bit of salt. All of that is also fascinating especially this last bit. |
|
|
|
Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Oct 31, 2018 21:40:59 GMT -5
Now that inventory and a few other things are over I can get a few words in: snip One last point, Ed Greenwood and others have hinted that TSR and now WOTC has an interesting contract clause with Ed. If they stop producing FR material (in some tellings if they also produce more of another setting than FR) the rights revert to Ed and the cas cow is gone. If this is true then Greenwood is a hell of a negotiator and I applaud him for the amount of cash he may be making on royalties. All of this is my opinion and half remembered stories so take it with a bit of salt. All of that is also fascinating especially this last bit. I've read things about this all over the place and the D&D novel line is dead. I think WotC will keep the FR licence as long as they produce official product for it even if they are reboots on classic adventures from other lines rewritten for 5e & FR. FR's long term status will depend on how long Hasbro chooses to keep WotC solvent. FR is the only IP outside D&D proper that WotC seems to be giving proper support too. Greyhawk is dead as are the Known World/Mystara. It seems WotC is more interested in trying to get people interested in a setting based upon their Magic the Gathering multiverse setting. |
|
|
|
Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Oct 31, 2018 21:45:41 GMT -5
Now that inventory and a few other things are over I can get a few words in: From what I have been reading and from the posts here I am now convinced building the Urhawk is pretty much impossible. That is not a bad thing as we can still get something. This may also be why many discussions tend to retread the same ground. I still thing there is more about the early campaign out there but anything big is probably sitting in a storage building being eaten by mice. That doesn't mean this is a fool's errand; I am just putting it into perspective. That said, I have ideas now after reading more about this and Arneson's work that will help my work for a long time. I do think we should keep on, but let our imaginations loose a bit to fill in some blanks and show what we have come up with. I agree, I know both Rob K. has stuff in his DVD and Gronan said they had maps and maybe more in storage but seemed uninterested to share it. |
|
|
|
Post by Mr Darke on Nov 1, 2018 16:16:52 GMT -5
All of that is also fascinating especially this last bit. I've read things about this all over the place and the D&D novel line is dead. I think WotC will keep the FR licence as long as they produce official product for it even if they are reboots on classic adventures from other lines rewritten for 5e & FR. FR's long term status will depend on how long Hasbro chooses to keep WotC solvent. FR is the only IP outside D&D proper that WotC seems to be giving proper support too. Greyhawk is dead as are the Known World/Mystara. It seems WotC is more interested in trying to get people interested in a setting based upon their Magic the Gathering multiverse setting. It would make one wonder if WOTC is getting ready to make a major shift as far as settings go... |
|
|
|
Post by Mr Darke on Nov 2, 2018 11:50:56 GMT -5
Now that inventory and a few other things are over I can get a few words in: From what I have been reading and from the posts here I am now convinced building the Urhawk is pretty much impossible. That is not a bad thing as we can still get something. This may also be why many discussions tend to retread the same ground. I still thing there is more about the early campaign out there but anything big is probably sitting in a storage building being eaten by mice. That doesn't mean this is a fool's errand; I am just putting it into perspective. That said, I have ideas now after reading more about this and Arneson's work that will help my work for a long time. I do think we should keep on, but let our imaginations loose a bit to fill in some blanks and show what we have come up with. I agree, I know both Rob K. has stuff in his DVD and Gronan said they had maps and maybe more in storage but seemed uninterested to share it. I am rethinking my angle in making an Urhawk setting due to some of this. We have the bare framework and it does for a basis. But the fleshing out is just going to have to be up to me. This also allows me to put the wargame back in as the RC does have rules for mass combat. And could take things I like and 'detune' them to fit the feel of an early setting. Funny that even with this we go back to Gary's idea of making the setting our own. |
|
|
|
Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Nov 2, 2018 12:42:52 GMT -5
I'd like to see what you do with this Mr Darke if you follow through on it. I'll likely stick with using the GH Folio and initial Gary Gygax deity & Demi-God World of Greyhawk articles in Dragon for mine. |
|
|
|
Post by mormonyoyoman on Nov 2, 2018 16:38:39 GMT -5
Until El Raja Key (which I am CERTAIN I misspelled) I'm not sure there really was an UrGreyhawk. It seems like it mutated to (a) test more rules ("More rules! More rules to bind them!") and (b) to keep up with the changes of the game itself. Yes I did repeat "to."
|
|
|
|
Post by Mr Darke on Nov 3, 2018 11:29:53 GMT -5
Until El Raja Key (which I am CERTAIN I misspelled) I'm not sure there really was an UrGreyhawk. It seems like it mutated to (a) test more rules ("More rules! More rules to bind them!") and (b) to keep up with the changes of the game itself. Yes I did repeat "to." There is evidence to support that. I have read Q&As where the perception of Gary's original games being overpowered came from testing the various elements of the game. So each session would see the testing of new magic items and such. So there was an element of Greyhawk morphing into a playtest game. And I think this could create a roadblock as there is an era that Greyhawk got pretty gonzo and many don't want to acknowledge that part. |
|
|
|
Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Nov 3, 2018 13:32:31 GMT -5
Until El Raja Key (which I am CERTAIN I misspelled) I'm not sure there really was an UrGreyhawk. It seems like it mutated to (a) test more rules ("More rules! More rules to bind them!") and (b) to keep up with the changes of the game itself. Yes I did repeat "to." There is evidence to support that. I have read Q&As where the perception of Gary's original games being overpowered came from testing the various elements of the game. So each session would see the testing of new magic items and such. So there was an element of Greyhawk morphing into a playtest game. And I think this could create a roadblock as there is an era that Greyhawk got pretty gonzo and many don't want to acknowledge that part. I think Greyhawk would've been far more gonzo if Gary had kept the rights and was allowed to continue to develop it but again I could be wrong, but even Arneson toned down the overt gonzoness of Blackmoor with his Zeitgeist version of the setting, maybe Gary would have too. I think one of the things that appeal to me with Arduin is Dave kept much of the gonzoness till the end. People say Forgotten Realms is vanilla but compared to 1e to 2e it is far more gonzo than published Greyhawk. Is it good gonzo? I guess it depends on who you ask. My Greyhawk and FR campaigns will be far more gonzo in nature than they became once TSR started publishing setting supplements for them. |
|
|
|
Post by bravewolf on Nov 3, 2018 18:32:53 GMT -5
There is evidence to support that. I have read Q&As where the perception of Gary's original games being overpowered came from testing the various elements of the game. So each session would see the testing of new magic items and such. So there was an element of Greyhawk morphing into a playtest game. And I think this could create a roadblock as there is an era that Greyhawk got pretty gonzo and many don't want to acknowledge that part. I think Greyhawk would've been far more gonzo if Gary had kept the rights and was allowed to continue to develop it but again I could be wrong, but even Arneson toned down the overt gonzoness of Blackmoor with his Zeitgeist version of the setting, maybe Gary would have too. I think one of the things that appeal to me with Arduin is Dave kept much of the gonzoness till the end. People say Forgotten Realms is vanilla but compared to 1e to 2e it is far more gonzo than published Greyhawk. Is it good gonzo? I guess it depends on who you ask. My Greyhawk and FR campaigns will be far more gonzo in nature than they became once TSR started publishing setting supplements for them. Gonzliness is next to Hargraveness ^_^ |
|
|
|
Post by Mr Darke on Nov 4, 2018 10:12:07 GMT -5
I have tried gonzo but never could do it unless I could come up with an internal consistency for it. As Ironic as it sounds there has to be some logic to my fantasy for it to work. I'm cracked that way.  |
|
|
|
Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Nov 4, 2018 11:05:09 GMT -5
I have tried gonzo but never could do it unless I could come up with an internal consistency for it. As Ironic as it sounds there has to be some logic to my fantasy for it to work. I'm cracked that way. I guess it depends on how you define gonzo, the problem everyone likely has their own definition of what it means. I've been a huge fan of RIFTS, Talislanta and from I've seen of Arduin it is right up my alley. In my games I come up with in game logic, such as the Deities made it so or magic (mutations or portals). |
|
|
|
Post by bestialwarlust on Nov 4, 2018 11:54:58 GMT -5
I have tried gonzo but never could do it unless I could come up with an internal consistency for it. As Ironic as it sounds there has to be some logic to my fantasy for it to work. I'm cracked that way. I guess it depends on how you define gonzo, the problem everyone likely has their own definition of what it means. I've been a huge fan of RIFTS, Talislanta and from I've seen of Arduin it is right up my alley. In my games I come up with in game logic, such as the Deities made it so or magic (mutations or portals). True one GM's gonzo is another's regular. For me I define gonzo as sci elements usually I like to sprinkle very finely some gonzo here and there so it's something that comes as a surprise. |
|
|
|
Post by Mr Darke on Nov 4, 2018 13:43:26 GMT -5
I guess it depends on how you define gonzo, the problem everyone likely has their own definition of what it means. I've been a huge fan of RIFTS, Talislanta and from I've seen of Arduin it is right up my alley. In my games I come up with in game logic, such as the Deities made it so or magic (mutations or portals). True one GM's gonzo is another's regular. For me I define gonzo as sci elements usually I like to sprinkle very finely some gonzo here and there so it's something that comes as a surprise. You guys are right. The way I have seen it defined throws internal logic and consistency out the window and just throws things in. However, I have seen things called gonzo that does have an internal logic and makes sense in the context of the setting. If I were to do 'gonzo' it would probably be more in the vein of steampunk/dungeonpunk/magepunk with enough explanation to let it all make sense. I just can't do what I have seen with some just throwing everything in with no rhyme or reason. |
|
