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Post by dilvish on Oct 3, 2018 8:40:30 GMT -5
I am just curious what kind of vibe people get from the Greyhawk setting?
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Post by mao on Oct 3, 2018 13:36:21 GMT -5
I am just curious what kind of vibe people get from the Greyhawk setting? Chaos |
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Oct 3, 2018 14:13:10 GMT -5
I am just curious what kind of vibe people get from the Greyhawk setting? I guess it depends on what version you are talking about. If you are referring to the Living Greyhawk era & Paizo Dragon/Dungeon Adventure Paths fun but bloated setting. If you are talking about post Gary 2e I find it a mix bag that started the real setting bloat that WotC had to pare down & it became increasingly vanilla. If you are referring to '83 Greyhawk Box set to Gary's ouster, it is fine and tried to give its own spin on Heroic Fantasy via the prism of AD&D. If you are referring to the '80 Greyhawk Folio and initial Greyhawk deity articles in Dragon Magazine only, an awesome sandbox to explore and make your own. |
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Post by ripx187 on Oct 4, 2018 16:48:56 GMT -5
Vib? I want to like it, and I do. I own the original Box Set and find that it is a fabulous collection of material and an example of how to collect and organize data. It is a do-it-yourself setting, which I really enjoy, but during actual play I found that even what was there was limiting. Things were in the way, I got hung up on that whole Kingdom by Alignment thing. I personally feel that it is a world at war, but the players aren't there. What really irritates me about commercial products is that in original box sets they would give you seeds of ideas, which I loved! However, then in later products they would change those seeds into adventure modules which dumb and green me would consider to be scripture at the time.
Commercially driven continuity is a horrible idea for these products. As soon as YOUR players roll up their characters and enter the world the continuity in your Greyhawk has become your own. Greyhawk was originally designed to be a template for the user. It did much of the unfun parts so that the consumer could focus on what they thought was fun and it would all still work! Then those modules started filling in details, perhaps details that the user had already done? After Gary left, it got worse. They started pushing the timeline forward and telling you that it is now LIVING Greyhawk, when in fact it was dead. It forced continuity onto the user that was never intended. Most of us ignore that garbage today, but the sad fact is that schism is still there.
I don't know, maybe that reflected a new generation of user. The ones who want bibles describing things. Maybe it was driven by the user, or maybe it was taught to us by design. It goes against my sensibilities now. I do use it in some ways, I really enjoy the thought that went into the original box! And I do emulate that with my own setting, but Greyhawk itself is kind of ruined for me. What's the point? I don't want to play like Gary, I want to play like me! Can I do that with Greyhawk? Sure. But why?
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Post by Mr Darke on Oct 4, 2018 17:31:25 GMT -5
I like early Greyhawk to From the Ashes so I get a kind of Warhammer dark type vibe.
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Post by dilvish on Oct 4, 2018 18:19:15 GMT -5
Well you guys went someplace that never even occurred to me!  I was asking about Greyhawk, the real Greyhawk from when it started to maybe '75 or '76. The one we have heard stories about, like ending up in China or on Barsoom. Those kind of things. I guess I should have been more specific.  |
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Oct 4, 2018 20:49:14 GMT -5
Well you guys went someplace that never even occurred to me! I was asking about Greyhawk, the real Greyhawk from when it started to maybe '75 or '76. The one we have heard stories about, like ending up in China or on Barsoom. Those kind of things. I guess I should have been more specific. I was tempted to include that option but wasn't sure whether anyone could really call it Greyhawk, as it was more of a Proto-Greyhawk Great Kingdom. I actually posted a few months ago about what if the members here should do a project where we take the Great Kingdom maps & create a setting based on what was listed. Kind of a alternate reality take on it. Redraw the maps to be less of a scribble and just go wild with it, using no lore just the names labeled upon it but only mao was remotely interested. |
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Post by dilvish on Oct 6, 2018 19:33:43 GMT -5
Well you guys went someplace that never even occurred to me! I was asking about Greyhawk, the real Greyhawk from when it started to maybe '75 or '76. The one we have heard stories about, like ending up in China or on Barsoom. Those kind of things. I guess I should have been more specific. I was tempted to include that option but wasn't sure whether anyone could really call it Greyhawk, as it was more of a Proto-Greyhawk Great Kingdom. I actually posted a few months ago about what if the members here should do a project where we take the Great Kingdom maps & create a setting based on what was listed. Kind of a alternate reality take on it. Redraw the maps to be less of a scribble and just go wild with it, using no lore just the names labeled upon it but only mao was remotely interested. I consider the Greyhawk that was Gary's campaign to be the only real Greyhawk. I myself am more interested in original stuff, so if anyone is good at creating a completely blank map, then maybe we could make a list of place names and then put in the mountains, forest, rivers etc. Once those stamps of Paper Labyrinth hit the Kickstarter we'll be in business on projects like that even if you can't draw. |
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Oct 6, 2018 22:20:56 GMT -5
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Post by Mr Darke on Oct 7, 2018 16:23:50 GMT -5
So just to clarify you mean the proto-Greyhawk based on the old maps below or the Greyhawk Folio? Now there's something I am more interested in! I wish we knew more about the early world and how it worked and was laid out. We have bits and pieces but nothing more. That said, I don't think that I would ever run a campaign set in that version. But borrowing ideas.... |
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Post by Mr Darke on Oct 7, 2018 16:30:35 GMT -5
I was tempted to include that option but wasn't sure whether anyone could really call it Greyhawk, as it was more of a Proto-Greyhawk Great Kingdom. I actually posted a few months ago about what if the members here should do a project where we take the Great Kingdom maps & create a setting based on what was listed. Kind of a alternate reality take on it. Redraw the maps to be less of a scribble and just go wild with it, using no lore just the names labeled upon it but only mao was remotely interested. I consider the Greyhawk that was Gary's campaign to be the only real Greyhawk. I myself am more interested in original stuff, so if anyone is good at creating a completely blank map, then maybe we could make a list of place names and then put in the mountains, forest, rivers etc. Once those stamps of Paper Labyrinth hit the Kickstarter we'll be in business on projects like that even if you can't draw. This is where I differ. Gary's Greyhawk was of course his world. Which was based on the idea Arneson created for Blackmoor which was based on Wesley's Braunstein idea (I see a naming theme here). However, Gary was big on baselines and I seem to recall him saying that the original TSR products formed a campaign baseline. So while Gary's 'Hawk was his personal game, 'real' in the sense of his core gaming group, the published version was the baseline for AD&D players. Which, IMHO, would make the published material the more 'real' setting as far as the AD&D players go. Which ties into a point I made years ago about how upon the release of the Folio, Greyhawk ceased to be Gary's and belongs to the fans to do with what they wish. Just my 2 cents. |
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Oct 7, 2018 22:49:04 GMT -5
So just to clarify you mean the proto-Greyhawk based on the old maps below or the Greyhawk Folio? Now there's something I am more interested in! I wish we knew more about the early world and how it worked and was laid out. We have bits and pieces but nothing more. That said, I don't think that I would ever run a campaign set in that version. But borrowing ideas.... So do I. Too bad Eric &/or Luke couldn't publish insight into the setting how their father's Greyhawk was. |
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Oct 7, 2018 22:51:30 GMT -5
I consider the Greyhawk that was Gary's campaign to be the only real Greyhawk. I myself am more interested in original stuff, so if anyone is good at creating a completely blank map, then maybe we could make a list of place names and then put in the mountains, forest, rivers etc. Once those stamps of Paper Labyrinth hit the Kickstarter we'll be in business on projects like that even if you can't draw. This is where I differ. Gary's Greyhawk was of course his world. Which was based on the idea Arneson created for Blackmoor which was based on Wesley's Braunstein idea (I see a naming theme here). However, Gary was big on baselines and I seem to recall him saying that the original TSR products formed a campaign baseline. So while Gary's 'Hawk was his personal game, 'real' in the sense of his core gaming group, the published version was the baseline for AD&D players. Which, IMHO, would make the published material the more 'real' setting as far as the AD&D players go. Which ties into a point I made years ago about how upon the release of the Folio, Greyhawk ceased to be Gary's and belongs to the fans to do with what they wish. Just my 2 cents. I personally prefer they Greyhawk Folio as it gives you a baseline to work from but leave a ton for the referee to create. |
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Post by El Borak on Oct 8, 2018 6:22:42 GMT -5
Now there's something I am more interested in! I wish we knew more about the early world and how it worked and was laid out. We have bits and pieces but nothing more. That said, I don't think that I would ever run a campaign set in that version. But borrowing ideas.... So do I. Too bad Eric &/or Luke couldn't publish insight into the setting how their father's Greyhawk was. OH, they can and (assuming the copyright laws don't screw things up even more) here's how. They write down everything they can remember and polish it and make it what they want and then when D&D goes out of copyright their grandsons ( or maybe great grandsons) can publish the whole thing. Once the evil s-m passes, if the half brother is amenable to that plan, there may be some other materials that can be included for the campaign. |
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Post by ripx187 on Oct 8, 2018 15:47:03 GMT -5
I consider the Greyhawk that was Gary's campaign to be the only real Greyhawk. I myself am more interested in original stuff, so if anyone is good at creating a completely blank map, then maybe we could make a list of place names and then put in the mountains, forest, rivers etc. Once those stamps of Paper Labyrinth hit the Kickstarter we'll be in business on projects like that even if you can't draw. This is where I differ. Gary's Greyhawk was of course his world. Which was based on the idea Arneson created for Blackmoor which was based on Wesley's Braunstein idea (I see a naming theme here). However, Gary was big on baselines and I seem to recall him saying that the original TSR products formed a campaign baseline. So while Gary's 'Hawk was his personal game, 'real' in the sense of his core gaming group, the published version was the baseline for AD&D players. Which, IMHO, would make the published material the more 'real' setting as far as the AD&D players go. Which ties into a point I made years ago about how upon the release of the Folio, Greyhawk ceased to be Gary's and belongs to the fans to do with what they wish. Just my 2 cents. I exalt this, as I find it to be an interesting thought, and I agree with it. Another interesting game that was turned into a commercial setting was Greenwood's Forgotten Realms, but through Dragon Magazine it documents the process of his real game slowly becoming a product. It sometimes blurred the line of commercial and personal information. I don't really think that Gygax, even though he had the microphone, ever did this himself. We get a few snippets of his personal game here and there, but they are far and in-between. |
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Oct 8, 2018 19:46:16 GMT -5
This is where I differ. Gary's Greyhawk was of course his world. Which was based on the idea Arneson created for Blackmoor which was based on Wesley's Braunstein idea (I see a naming theme here). However, Gary was big on baselines and I seem to recall him saying that the original TSR products formed a campaign baseline. So while Gary's 'Hawk was his personal game, 'real' in the sense of his core gaming group, the published version was the baseline for AD&D players. Which, IMHO, would make the published material the more 'real' setting as far as the AD&D players go. Which ties into a point I made years ago about how upon the release of the Folio, Greyhawk ceased to be Gary's and belongs to the fans to do with what they wish. Just my 2 cents. I exalt this, as I find it to be an interesting thought, and I agree with it. Another interesting game that was turned into a commercial setting was Greenwood's Forgotten Realms, but through Dragon Magazine it documents the process of his real game slowly becoming a product. It sometimes blurred the line of commercial and personal information. I don't really think that Gygax, even though he had the microphone, ever did this himself. We get a few snippets of his personal game here and there, but they are far and in-between. I was a fan of Forgotten Realms & you are correct Dragon showed its transition in real time. That said, Ed Greenwood made it clear that he saw the TSR & then WotC Fr as the cannon FR, and his group incorporated the changes into his own campaigns. |
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Post by randyb on Oct 9, 2018 7:24:00 GMT -5
To the original question: nostalgia. My own nostalgia, for the heady days of my teen years when I was discovering the game as it was being published (1e). I waver between the folio and the boxed set as my favorite incarnations.
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Post by El Borak on Oct 9, 2018 12:33:33 GMT -5
So just to clarify you mean the proto-Greyhawk based on the old maps below or the Greyhawk Folio? Those are cool maps! |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Oct 9, 2018 18:16:33 GMT -5
So just to clarify you mean the proto-Greyhawk based on the old maps below or the Greyhawk Folio? Those are cool maps! Still have the maps. Earlier ones, which had Blackmoor. Never used Greyhawk except to spoof its name. Too crunchy for me. Had enough rules in my real job. I wanted to be as surprised as my players. But those maps - they still have magic. And I honor Greyhawk for just existing. Ignore the rules and those folios were fun just to read. |
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Post by Mr Darke on Oct 9, 2018 18:36:21 GMT -5
This is where I differ. Gary's Greyhawk was of course his world. Which was based on the idea Arneson created for Blackmoor which was based on Wesley's Braunstein idea (I see a naming theme here). However, Gary was big on baselines and I seem to recall him saying that the original TSR products formed a campaign baseline. So while Gary's 'Hawk was his personal game, 'real' in the sense of his core gaming group, the published version was the baseline for AD&D players. Which, IMHO, would make the published material the more 'real' setting as far as the AD&D players go. Which ties into a point I made years ago about how upon the release of the Folio, Greyhawk ceased to be Gary's and belongs to the fans to do with what they wish. Just my 2 cents. I personally prefer they Greyhawk Folio as it gives you a baseline to work from but leave a ton for the referee to create. When I am running Greyhawk I usually work with the Folio and Boxed Set as my baseline with sprinklings from From the Ashes and the Living Greyhawk Gazz. Of course mine is highly customized and I drop whatever tickles my fancy in. This thread gave me a thought that I may pursue...with my stance on the Rules Cyclopedia being a successor to D&D and GH and Blackmoor being the first two worlds; I wonder what an RC Greyhawk game would look like... |
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Post by hengest on Mar 3, 2021 16:09:00 GMT -5
Varied, from what I've seen of it. Other replies on this thread gave better voice to what I have to say, but I guess I would say: it often feels like a homebrew setting that turned into nothingness because of
-too many cooks
or
-trying to please everyone
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I was asking about Greyhawk, the real Greyhawk from when it started to maybe '75 or '76. The one we have heard stories about, like ending up in China or on Barsoom. Those kind of things. I guess I should have been more specific. 
