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Post by makofan on Apr 30, 2015 13:15:00 GMT -5
I thought I would share some stats with the people here, gives me food for thought and makes me rethink some of what I am doing, and whether I should incorporate some house rules to make it easier for players.
I have a veteran 6-player group. They have done four one-session mini-dungeons, and a single-level dungeon that took two sessions. Each of the adventures was advertised for first level characters. There have been 6 fatalities. The hobbit fighter died twice, everyone else died once, except for the magic user, who has 1986 xp. Nobody else has more than 800.
I would think that an acceptable rate would be 2-3 deaths by the time the remainder hit level 2. Two deaths were traps (a real issue in OD&D), the other four were high damage rolls in combat (like a 20 followed by a 6, and an 18 followed by a 5). Magic Items were not an issue; they found 3 magic weapons and four healing potions, just can't use a heal pot when you are dead.
Should I - award max hp at 1st level - allow 0 not to be death just unconscious (3 of four deaths were 0 hp) - eliminate traps - award more xp - say "suck it up, that's old school"
Any thoughts from other DM's? |
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Post by tetramorph on Apr 30, 2015 13:58:05 GMT -5
makofan: good questions. I must say that I like the whole: you are unconscious at 0 and up to your lvl in the negative but until you are safe you will loose 1hp a day. So there is time pressure. They have to get back and pay for a doctor or cleric. So there is some cost. The chance of death is real but they have a chance of survival.
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Post by Admin Pete on Apr 30, 2015 14:19:58 GMT -5
I thought I would share some stats with the people here, gives me food for thought and makes me rethink some of what I am doing, and whether I should incorporate some house rules to make it easier for players.
I have a veteran 6-player group. They have done four one-session mini-dungeons, and a single-level dungeon that took two sessions. Each of the adventures was advertised for first level characters. There have been 6 fatalities. The hobbit fighter died twice, everyone else died once, except for the magic user, who has 1986 xp. Nobody else has more than 800.
I would think that an acceptable rate would be 2-3 deaths by the time the remainder hit level 2. Two deaths were traps (a real issue in OD&D), the other four were high damage rolls in combat (like a 20 followed by a 6, and an 18 followed by a 5). Magic Items were not an issue; they found 3 magic weapons and four healing potions, just can't use a heal pot when you are dead.
Should I - award max hp at 1st level - allow 0 not to be death just unconscious (3 of four deaths were 0 hp) - eliminate traps - award more xp - say "suck it up, that's old school"
Any thoughts from other DM's? With veteran players the answer IMO is - say "suck it up, that's old school". With newbies the answer IMO is - say "suck it up, that's old school".  If the newbies are under 35 then you might - award max hp at 1st level and - allow 0 not to be death just unconscious.  |
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Post by Maximum Forest Ranger on Apr 30, 2015 16:26:29 GMT -5
With veteran players the answer IMO is - say "suck it up, that's old school". With newbies the answer IMO is - say "suck it up, that's old school". This is the answer I like!  |
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Post by The Red Baron on Apr 30, 2015 18:08:07 GMT -5
Ask not what you can do for your players, but rather what your players may do for themselves. -Play a magic-user -Spend more time looking for traps -Embrace death with open arms |
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Post by The Red Baron on Apr 30, 2015 18:09:30 GMT -5
makofan: good questions. I must say that I like the whole: you are unconscious at 0 and up to your lvl in the negative but until you are safe you will loose 1hp a day. So there is time pressure. They have to get back and pay for a doctor or cleric. So there is some cost. The chance of death is real but they have a chance of survival. The only two options I like are A. Dead at 0 hp B. Unconscious at 0, dead at negative |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Apr 30, 2015 18:26:46 GMT -5
How do you handle traps? The way I recall it, most of the "traps" descibed in U&WA are actually more "tricks" designed to help the players get lost, or get in over their heads. Pit traps will cause damage, sure, but will not always open, and a smart dwarf player would spot them most of the time. From memory I think I recall that poison gas traps are mentioned in U&WA but discouraged. I think M&M also hints that poison can simply deal damage, and that a save vs. poison will reduce this damage by half.
Encourage larger groups so that individual losses are not so significant. I believe the players are expected to include a retinue of hirelings and/or retainers. Another advantage of this approach is that if a player's figure should die, he can immediately--if he desires--take on the role of one of the remaining mercenaries/hirelings and continue without interruption.
Possibily allow the player (rather than the character) to accumulate XP, so that he can "carry over" his accumulated XP from game to game regardless of whether he lost a character or not?
Generally I like that the risk of death is hanging over the players (and not just at 1st level!). This is a necessary part of the risk:reward equation. Without risk, rewards are hollow giveaways and player success is diminished and everyone will know it.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Apr 30, 2015 18:32:34 GMT -5
The only two options I like are A. Dead at 0 hp B. Unconscious at 0, dead at negative FWIW, The 1973 D&D draft doesn't state "unconscious" at 0, but it certainly says "unable to fight, but not yet slain" at 0 hp, then dead at negative hp. I use this option for players in my games, but dead at 0 for anonymous mook type monsters. |
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Post by hedgehobbit on Apr 30, 2015 18:55:51 GMT -5
I use a saving throw vs death at 0 hit points. Pass and you're still conscious and able to fight. You make a save every time you get hit from that point on. So, in effect hit points are "free wounds" above and beyond damage needed to kill you. I don't do negative hps.
Also, character start with hit points equal to their Con but don't gain any hit points until their rolled value exceeds this number.
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Post by merctime on Apr 30, 2015 19:16:13 GMT -5
Ask not what you can do for your players, but rather what your players may do for themselves. Oh, sweet mother of christmas... I LOVE THIS. Good Mr. Baron, may I use this as my Signature? With your name for credit? While I'm asking, I'd like to use it over at Fin's OD&D proboards, too, if it's ok!! |
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Post by merctime on Apr 30, 2015 20:49:54 GMT -5
Mako, I think my favorite advice is from theperilousdreamer so far. Especially since he breaks up the harsh reality allowing some leniency for younger players (I'd go much younger than 35 though myself). Regarding traps, are you requiring they not fire except on a 1-2 on d6? That may lessen some lethality, but keep that lovely tension. Also, Ways' advice for hirelings is pure gold in my opinion. If your gamers aren't adverse to the idea, surrounding themselves in mail-clad soldiers might be an excellent addition to their plan of play. This of course will help against combat casualties, and also, hopefully, instill some budding 'leadership' ideas in the mind of your players early on that may well lead to aspirations of domain for them in later levels. Hey... A DM can hope!! But, yeah... especially considering advanced players, I'd remind them in firm but friendly fashion that choices they make result in consequences they earn. As the good Baron states beautifully above (dang, I LOVE this quote...) "Ask not what you can do for your players. Ask what your players can do for themselves." Um, did I already mention that I love that saying? Edit: Considering traps, I really hope you don't need to eliminate them. I'm not in that group of course (but can't wait to be ready once again to ask you to be my DM!!!) but I feel that traps are just a necessary part of the experience. In the stuff I'm writing lately, I'm trying to view traps the way Ways views creatures: They have" tiers". Traps on 'normal' dungeon levels (1-3), while still deadly, are very obvious and half of them capture or incapacitate instead of kill. ''Heroic' tier dungeon level (4-7) traps are not so easily spotted, and capture or incapacitate less often. 'Super-heroic', levels 8+, hold deadly traps that are terribly hard to detect. Try replacing some traps on level one with stuff like a heavy iron cage dangling from a ceiling rope at a chokepoint, easily spotted rooftop log deadfalls, and the like... Sure, they can see them, but they must still be dealt with or another avenue of approach must be discovered and utilized. Hope this helps!! |
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Post by makofan on May 1, 2015 9:07:22 GMT -5
TRAPS: I give dwarves a 1-2 chance to detect them while walking along. I trigger them on a 1-2, so they actually avoided a couple of traps without even knowing it!
I think hirelings may be the answer
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Post by waysoftheearth on May 1, 2015 20:56:26 GMT -5
Traps on 'normal' dungeon levels (1-3), while still deadly, are very obvious and half of them capture or incapacitate instead of kill. ''Heroic' tier dungeon level (4-7) traps are not so easily spotted, and capture or incapacitate less often. 'Super-heroic', levels 8+, hold deadly traps that are terribly hard to detect. U&WA p5-6 is highly instructive. The sample dungeon level includes rooms with 4 ogres, a basilisk, 1-2 true-trolls (aka giants), and also a bunch of traps. The traps are: . slanting (i.e., non-orthogonal) passage, . an inescapable approach to a monster lair (basilisk), . a false door, . a set of stairs "up" which are actually a slide to a lower level, . a transporter to anywhere the ref likes (including the center of the Earth and the Moon), . a shifting section of wall (periodically "changing" which passages are navigable), . a secret door which randomises the destination the players arrive in, . A pit trap (which only causes damage on a throw of 1-2 on a six-sided die). So: one 1 out of 8 traps on a dungeon level with ogres, a basilisk, and giants causes direct harm, and then on one time in three. Also, it is stated that: "there is no question that a player's character could easily be killed by falling into a pit thirty feet deep or into a shallow pit filled with poisoned spikes, and this is quite undesirable in most instances." (U&WA p6) TRAPS: I give dwarves a 1-2 chance to detect them while walking along. I trigger them on a 1-2, so they actually avoided a couple of traps without even knowing it! I think it's very reasonable use the elf's chances of finding secret doors for the dwarf's (and the thief's, if these are used) chances of finding traps |
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Post by The Red Baron on May 1, 2015 21:02:31 GMT -5
The only two options I like are A. Dead at 0 hp B. Unconscious at 0, dead at negative FWIW, The 1973 D&D draft doesn't state "unconscious" at 0, but it certainly says "unable to fight, but not yet slain" at 0 hp, then dead at negative hp. I use this option for players in my games, but dead at 0 for anonymous mook type monsters. I use the term "incapacitated" |
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Post by Vile Traveller on May 1, 2015 23:11:59 GMT -5
I used to play and run a fairly obscure game in the '80s called "Delta Force", basically an anti-terrorist skirmish game / RPG mash-up. Interestingly the main impact that had on our group was that everyone became much more cautious in other games, planning and making back-up plans for everything. That's the best way of surviving, but it does need a group that's willing to go with the slower pace this style of play entails.
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Post by Von on May 2, 2015 7:48:41 GMT -5
I use a saving throw vs death at 0 hit points. Pass and you're still conscious and able to fight. You make a save every time you get hit from that point on. So, in effect hit points are "free wounds" above and beyond damage needed to kill you. I don't do negative hps. Also, character start with hit points equal to their Con but don't gain any hit points until their rolled value exceeds this number. That being said, I don't find anything particularly old school about PCs dying over and over again. Dave gave starting characters 14 hit points which is pretty decent against 1d6 damage attacks (and less on average than what I do). Rules to the Game of Dungeon is also very forgiving, giving starting fighters the equivalent of 7 hit dice and wizards 2. Metamorphosis Alpha gives out a ridiculous number of hit points at start. Good thoughts all given the abstract nature of the 'hit point'. You're only at risk of incapacitation/serious injury/cool scar infliction/death when you hit 0 and even then it's not a given. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on May 2, 2015 9:12:27 GMT -5
Dave gave starting characters 14 hit points I'd be interested to hear more about this hedgehobbit... my understanding is that mortals in Dave's game (including basic men-at-arms) had 7 hp, heroes had 14 hp, and superheroes had 28 hp. Greg Svensons' "The Great Svenny" apparently began as a flunky man-at-arms in service to Lord Fant, presumably with 7 hp. |
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Post by merctime on May 2, 2015 14:13:13 GMT -5
The above idea of giving large amounts of hit points at first level reminds me of some stuff I've read in the empcho re-print of the first three volumes of arduin.
In there, and I forget if it's an implied rule or an option, but all characters receive a certain amount of hit points all up front based off of maximum hit dice by class or something like that. This seems to be a trade-off; Hit points are simply 'front-loaded' from the start at level 1 but no more being gained upon any further level-ups.
I found it an intriguing curiosity when I first read of it, but quickly decided that I prefer the common hit die advancement and decided not to go the arduin route for this purpose.
Still, it may be a viable option in some campaigns.
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Post by hedgehobbit on May 2, 2015 18:26:32 GMT -5
I'd be interested to hear more about this ... my understanding is that mortals in Dave's game (including basic men-at-arms) had 7 hp, heroes had 14 hp, and superheroes had 28 hp. Greg Svensons' "The Great Svenny" apparently began as a flunky man-at-arms in service to Lord Fant, presumably with 7 hp. Egads, you're right. I totally misremembered. That's the average of two hit dice or max hit points for OD&D. I'll edit my comment. |
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Post by tetramorph on May 3, 2015 12:42:02 GMT -5
I ran a marathon pick-up session for some graduating students of mine this last Friday.
I used my rule of thumb above: unconscious (or incapacitated) at 0 and negative up to PC lvl.
It was still a deadly dungeon but it did help with things feeling "fair," or, at least, possible, for the players.
Two PCs died and about 4 retainers died.
So I agree with other posters that retainers are really the answer.
Several PCs went unconscious and needed medical attention. This cost gold and random monster encounters as they had to pay for medical / clerical help and they had to slog their unconscious comrades out slowly. At one point this caused a bunch of lvl1 PCs to be chased by a mummy. Pretty fun.
What I "earned" from being so generous was that I had fewer times I had to totally stop play for folks to roll-up or at least prep a new PC.
It was still (IMHO) sufficiently OS!
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Post by The Bear Hawk on May 4, 2015 11:57:10 GMT -5
Ask not what you can do for your players, but rather what your players may do for themselves. -Play a magic-user -Spend more time looking for traps -Embrace death with open arms Gotta love it! |
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Post by The Bear Hawk on May 4, 2015 11:59:40 GMT -5
I thought I would share some stats with the people here, gives me food for thought and makes me rethink some of what I am doing, and whether I should incorporate some house rules to make it easier for players.
I have a veteran 6-player group. They have done four one-session mini-dungeons, and a single-level dungeon that took two sessions. Each of the adventures was advertised for first level characters. There have been 6 fatalities. The hobbit fighter died twice, everyone else died once, except for the magic user, who has 1986 xp. Nobody else has more than 800.
I would think that an acceptable rate would be 2-3 deaths by the time the remainder hit level 2. Two deaths were traps (a real issue in OD&D), the other four were high damage rolls in combat (like a 20 followed by a 6, and an 18 followed by a 5). Magic Items were not an issue; they found 3 magic weapons and four healing potions, just can't use a heal pot when you are dead.
Should I - award max hp at 1st level - allow 0 not to be death just unconscious (3 of four deaths were 0 hp) - eliminate traps - award more xp - say "suck it up, that's old school"
Any thoughts from other DM's? If you make adjustments, I would go with 1 and/or 2, but I like 5 the most. |
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2015 13:29:53 GMT -5
How do you handle traps? The way I recall it, most of the "traps" descibed in U&WA are actually more "tricks" designed to help the players get lost, or get in over their heads. Pit traps will cause damage, sure, but will not always open, and a smart dwarf player would spot them most of the time. From memory I think I recall that poison gas traps are mentioned in U&WA but discouraged. I think M&M also hints that poison can simply deal damage, and that a save vs. poison will reduce this damage by half. Encourage larger groups so that individual losses are not so significant. I believe the players are expected to include a retinue of hirelings and/or retainers. Another advantage of this approach is that if a player's figure should die, he can immediately--if he desires--take on the role of one of the remaining mercenaries/hirelings and continue without interruption. Possibily allow the player (rather than the character) to accumulate XP, so that he can "carry over" his accumulated XP from game to game regardless of whether he lost a character or not? Generally I like that the risk of death is hanging over the players (and not just at 1st level!). This is a necessary part of the risk:reward equation. Without risk, rewards are hollow giveaways and player success is diminished and everyone will know it. Those are some great points and I like things that will not kill the players but will throw a real scare into them, since it could have killed them. |
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on May 8, 2015 14:20:58 GMT -5
- say "suck it up, that's old school" This is the route that I have always went! |
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Post by Von on May 9, 2015 12:34:26 GMT -5
Possibily allow the player (rather than the character) to accumulate XP, so that he can "carry over" his accumulated XP from game to game regardless of whether he lost a character or not? This is a really neat idea, especially if you're rolling with the idea that there is no player/character distinction and the player is accumulating experience as they go along, merely exchanging playing pieces now and then. |
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on May 9, 2015 16:34:15 GMT -5
With veteran players the answer IMO is - say "suck it up, that's old school". With newbies the answer IMO is - say "suck it up, that's old school". This is the answer I like! I second that! |
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Post by ffilz on May 13, 2015 13:19:55 GMT -5
I mostly go with the "suck it up", but I softened it a tiny bit for my play by post campaign:
A character reduced to 0 hit points is unconscious and will need a days rest to recover to 1 hit point. A week spent in town will recover all lost hit points.
A character reduced below 0 hit points must make a survival roll. The roll is:
d20 <= Con reduced by the number of hit points below 0.
If healing is applied (only from one source), the roll must still be made, but might be at a bonus if hit points are increased above 0. The roll becomes unnecessary if the healing restores the character to full hit points.
I decided against a system shock survival (automatic for high Constitution) or a save vs. death (too easy at high level), the above seemed to be the best way to give some advantage to a high Constitution while still making death pretty likely. The healing rule allows for a healing potion or spell to give the PC a better chance. I also dislike rules that give too big a negative hit point range where you are dying combined with a 0 hp equals unconscious, it seems odd that there's this tiny chance (especially at high level) that a combatant is incapacitated to unconsciousness but otherwise is dead or dying.
In the system we played in college, the negative hit point rule was up to -1/4 HP, you were unconscious. From -1/4 to -1/2, you needed magical healing within a day. Below -1/2 you needed specialized healing to commence within 6 melee rounds. There was no absolute negative hit point limit, but the specialized healing became very challenging, though a flesh to stone spell would also halt the death count. A nice system overall, and there were many real deaths, but definitely a different flavor than D&D.
Frank
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Post by bestialwarlust on May 21, 2015 21:17:52 GMT -5
Here's my house rule for what I use in my games. As I view HP as not just damage, but a mixture of luck, fatigue and minor damage (bruising, minor cuts, etc..) when you're all out of HP the next strike that hits is the "mortal blow":
Damage and Injury and 0 Hit Points
A "hit" inflicts 1-6 hit points of damage, although this might be adjusted due to high strength, an enchanted weapon, or other modifier. The resulting points of damage are deducted from the opponent's remaining hit points. At 0 hit points, a life threatening Wound has been inflicted and there is a chance he is immediately killed. Roll an unmodified d6:
1 — the character is dead.
2-4 — mortally wounded might “bleed” to death. Roll again next round. Another character can also use first aid to stabilize him.
5+ Character has suffered a Wound but conscious, he stable but injured, disadvantage (roll two dice and pick the lowest) to any physical action performed.
A character taking a second Wound is dead (a CON of 15+ allows the character to take three wounds before dying). To recover naturally requires one week of rest. The character remains at 0 hit points until then. Cure serious wounds or better can be used to remove the week recovery time. After this normal healing spells can be used to restore hit points.
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Post by merctime on May 23, 2015 16:34:22 GMT -5
...As I view HP as not just damage, but a mixture of luck, fatigue and minor damage (bruising, minor cuts, etc..) when you're all out of HP the next strike that hits is the "mortal blow"... I am firmly in this camp regarding Hit Points and what they represent. I go so far as to include a bit of the super-natural; If a player has a really high amount of Hit Points, this may in fact also include a feeling of being 'blessed by the gods' and thus provide impetus and energy to one's endeavors. I suppose my basic thought on Hit Points is that they are a character's "will to press on through adversity/desire to not quit in the face of physical or other pain". Again, I exalt thee, Sir Bestial! |
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Post by Admin Pete on May 23, 2015 22:09:02 GMT -5
As and additional comment to what I posted above let me just say that I have tried it a lot of different ways over the years and as move toward a new campaign (after one more go round with the half-elven party) I am looking at doing it with more hit points up front, to shake up the dynamics of low level play, along with revising my death rules.
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