simplified mass-combat for HX-crawls

[tetramorph]

I want to do a HX crawl with high-lvl PCs (4+) and their small details of soldiers where I will allow every PC to hire a detail of lvl 1 men-at-arms equal to their HD without counting towards their retainer limits. I do not want to use CM. I want to use a system closer to what D&D players (these days) are used to.

THE GENERAL IDEA

Consider all troops and retainers of one (1) HD or less en masse and place in meaningful groups under the character who hires them. Groups should not be greater in HD than the lvl of the highest character combatant. Judge cavalry and infantry as FM of the level of their added HD. Assume basic class AC. Mounted cavalry may have bonuses. In general, for generic troops, figure AC: Light AC 7, Medium AC 5, Heavy AC 3.

Determine “combat factor” by taking a character’s lvl or a group’s HD total, add any magical weapon bonuses and subtract relative AC (never less than zero).

Reckon combat in turns of ten (10) minutes and simultaneous, with opposing checks between opponents for "normal" combat (further described, below, after magic).

For magic recall that feet becomes yards. Also, to maintain the same lvl of abstraction, any spells that grant #s of dice to roll becomes number of pips available (rounded to highest equivalent die). So, for e.g., a 10HD Wizard will throw a d10 fireball instead of rolling 10d6 for damage, the number indicated HP loss for characters and HD loss for groups of soldiers, etc. Clerics still turn 2d6 undead.

For otherwise "normal" combat (range fire or melee) roll 1d6 for each combatant and add the result to the character’s or group’s combat factor. The difference between combatant totals is deducted from the HP of the losing character, or the HD pool of the loosing group. Groups continue to fight at en masse lvl until all HD are lost. When a character or a group looses all HD they are defeated and no longer engage in combat.

Defeat does not mean that a PC is dead or that a group has lost all individuals. It does at least indicate retreat and perhaps unconsciousness or death. At conclusion of combat, characters loose HP equivalent to total losses or save for half loss. All en masse groups loose troops equivalent to HD loss or save for half HD loss. If only half are killed, the referee may demand another saving throw against the rest being unconscious. If made, only half of the living troops are unconscious, leaving the rest to be helpful for burial and carrying of comrades. If there is another attack, the groups combat factor will need to be re-totaled based upon current (conscious) numbers.

Up to four combatant units may attack up to one combatant unit per round (guard, rear, left and right flank).

If and when combat continues after the numbers of combatants are within what would be considered "normal" numbers for D&D's usual method of resolution, referee and players may choose to return to normal combat resolution.

EXAMPLE #1 Hero vs. 4 heavy foot

Hero without magic armor weapon or other bonuses: Combat Factor 2 (= HD4 - AC2)
Group of four (4) heavy foot soldiers: Combat Factor 1 ( = HD4 - AC3)
The hero would have a light advantage in this case, but the combat could fairly easily go either way. The hero could take out all four in one 10-minute round if they roll low enough and he rolls high enough, e.g.: Foot roll 1 + 1 CF = 2 vs. Hero roll 4 + 2 CF = 6; difference = 4 against foot soldiers 4 HD total, they are therefore removed from combat. At conclusion of combat they would save against half loss, and, perhaps, again against half unconscious. One may remain standing with two dead and one unconscious. Of course, this scenario could almost as easily have gone the other way.

EXAMPLE #2 A large exploration party

Superhero lvl 8 w/magic armor, magic sword, CF8
Superhero's detail: 8 heavy foot, CF5

Wizard lvl 10 w/magic robes, two shield-bearers and a significant magic item, CF5
Wizard's detail: 10 heavy foot, CF7

Lama lvl 7 w/magic armor, CF6
Lama's detail: 8 heavy foot (I would round to highest even number), CF5

Exploration party's retainer detail consisting of 1 cook, 2 porters and 2 torch-bearers with two shield-bearers per non-combatant:
HD pool total = 15
Each non-combatant given leather armor for average non-combatant AC of 7, minus 2 for shield-bearers, giving an average of AC 5
Each shield bearer in full-plate with average AC 3
Total retainer-group average AC = 3 and 2/3, so AC4
Final retainer detail DEFENSIVE Combat Factor (as non-combatants they can never attack) = CF11

As referee, this gives me only 7 "characters" to have to reckon. I am pretty used to this many in a dungeon crawl. Let's say they happen upon 100 brigands. Allow me to bracket leader-types, and the possibility of magic users and clerics being present. I would group them into 10 groups of 10HD at, say, medium foot. So, each group would have CF5. That is 7 against 10 "characters," with opposing check resolution for melee and 10 minute lvl of abstraction for combat rounds.

CONCLUSION

I am excited about play-testing this. This seems, right now, theoretically, fair and usable.

What do you guys think? Do you see any major problems or snafus? Things I've failed to note, etc? Do you think it would work to smooth out battle at that level of scale, without needing miniatures and returning to wargame rules?

Thanks for any input!

[tetramorph]

I already foresee a problem: should the deference represent HD "loss" or HP loss for PCs?

[waysoftheearth]

A couple of technicalities to fuss over first

* "By the book" Men-at-Arms are not 1st level types. They are generally considered 1 HD, classless, normal types.

* "By the book" Men-at-Arms (and other hirelings) do not count as Retainers, and there is no limit to the number of hirelings a PC may employ (other than gold to pay them and supplies to feed them).

Okay, so onto the real stuff...

What do you think the benefit of a ten-minute turn would be?

The one-minute turn already abstracts potentially many rounds of melee, and many blows per round, so one-minute turns seem ideal for combat resolution. Perhaps at the ten-minute level of abstraction you could simply use a morale check to determine the whole of the outcome, modified by tactical factors and that would be that. But that wouldn't the style of D&D that people are accustomed to.

Have you checked out Delta's Book of War? I think it covers pretty much what you discuss here... perhaps with the exception of including lower level player types (been a while since I looked at it)?

[tetramorph]

waysoftheearth, yes you are right about men-at-arms. When I play the Planet Eris house rules or my own Dun Kells we distinguish b/w 1HD and 0HD retainers. So I was thinking in that house-rules mode when I wanted to specify "lvl 1" as the one HD. But you are right of course. You are correct about the number of hirelings. I may therefore reconsider that.

Now on to your question: it seems to me that as you go up in lvl of scale you must include time-scale in that as well. A Risk turn, like Diplomacy, should be over entire seasons. At the next level down weeks or at least days. In the dungeon we have a quick round (6 seconds? one minute? you've done all the research on that). It seemed appropriate to me that as I increased the level of abstraction the time scale oght to increase as well. And only slightly. A ten minute combat turn represents a significant brake down of the one-day wilderness turn, much like the one-minute or 6-second round represents a significant breakdown of the 10 minute dungeon turn.

What do you think?

I will check out Delta's Book of War.

Thanks

[waysoftheearth]

Apr 27, 2015 9:45:55 GMT -5 tetramorph said:

it seems to me that as you go up in lvl of scale you must include time-scale in that as well.

I believe it can be whatever you want to make it. However, increasing the timescale will tend toward increasing the level of abstraction, possibly beyond the "detail" of levels and HD.

D&D includes (implied) week-long "campaign turns", day-long wilderness-exploration turns, ten-minute dungeon-exploration turns, and one-minute combat turns. IMHO CM/OD&D's melee rounds are not really the same thing as player turns because the player has very restricted options during a "round" (basically, fight or don't fight). I believe melee rounds represent only the melee segment of a combat turn, which could also include a surprise segment, move segments, and missile/magic segments.

Chainmail illustrates that the the figure-scale can be shifted up and down (from 1:20 to 1:10 to 1:1 or whatever) without adjusting the timescale or ground scale. U&WA suggests that the MtM/FCT rules be used to resolve outdoor combat encounters--maintaining the 1:1 figure scale and one-minute timescale while the ground scale is changed (from 1":10ft to 1":10yds). Whether this change of ground scale is done "well" or not is a whole different discussion

Ten-minute combat turns are certainly plausible if you want to use them, but you may need to consider the changed timescale's effect on movement distance versus missile/magic range and rates of fire and so on. In short: changes of timescale can be quite tricky. Changes of timescale AND figure scale is another level of complexity on top of that.

FWIW, the family of DBx wargames rules from WRG use a timescale of approximately the order you are after (15 minute turns, from memory). Those very successful games resolve engagements between "elements" (bases of variable numbers of figures representing variable numbers of troops) with a single roll producing a single outcome for the turn: destroyed, stand-off, pushed back, or routed. Is that the level of abstraction you are looking for--or do you want to retain more detail than that?

[tetramorph]

waysoftheearth:

FWIW, the family of DBx wargames rules from WRG use a timescale of approximately the order you are after (15 minute turns, from memory). Those very successful games resolve engagements between "elements" (bases of variable numbers of figures representing variable numbers of troops) with a single roll producing a single outcome for the turn: destroyed, stand-off, pushed back, or routed. Is that the level of abstraction you are looking for--or do you want to retain more detail than that?

Yes, that is about right, but I also want magic.

I will have to check out those rules.

Do you see any other problems? I can easily adjust the time-scale if it winds up posing a problem.

But what about PCs, should pips represent HD "loss," of HP loss?

[tetramorph]

waysoftheearth (and Daniel R. Collins, if you are out there!),

Thanks so much for pointing me towards Delta's Book of War. It is awesome.

I have never been a miniatures war gammer so some of it has me confused. I think he (rightly) assumes that I, as an 0e player, should know this stuff. Sadly, I don't. So I have some comments and clarifying questions. Please help me out if you can.

Comment: why go from dungeon 1" = 10ft to outdoors 1"= 20ft? Seems to me he could just as well have followed 0e's suggestion that feet in the dungeon simply become yards in the wilderness. Thus 1" = 30ft. Just sayin'.

Comment: I get that he is basically scaling everything up by about three. Hence a "turn" is 30 seconds because he believes a dungeon round is 10 seconds. I would prefer to keep this abstract, as different ref's interpret "turn" and "round" differently (but only waysoftheearth has done enough research to do so correctly!). That way, the mass-combat "turn" is "three dungeon rounds," whatever that ref understands that to mean.

Question: Then things start to get really unclear for me. (And I am still on pg. 5 "Core Rules"). One successful hit removes one "figure" of "normal men." Above, he described a "figure" of normal men to represent 10 men. I take this to mean that one successful hit removes 10 men.

But "monsters with multiple HD take that number of hits before having a figure eliminated." I get that. But is that one figure = one monster or one figure = 10 monsters. If the former and not the latter it seems rather unfair to me. Let's take the former. One ghoul could potentially take out 10 men in 30 seconds. Whereas that same group of men will take at least two successful rounds (60 seconds only if successful in the immediately subsequent round, but potentially longer) to take out a single ghoul. Even with one-hit-point-wonders this does not map to my in-dungeon experience. But that is his stated goal. So perhaps I am confused. What does he mean here? He must mean 10 ghouls in this case, right?

Question: The sequence of the turn is clear, clean and simple. However, when "fantastics" are added, where exactly out the affects of spells be resolved? And is initiative rerolled each round? Should then magic be declared before initiative? Or before or after range-fire? One thing is clear at least, following all precedence I know: it had better come before the resolution of normal melee!

Anyway, its brilliant. I love it and it was a spot-on good suggestion, waysoftheearth, thanks. It has me cogitating in the right direction!

[tetramorph]

Hey waysoftheearth, I think I've answered my own question at this point. He wants all "figures" to be 10 of a given type. So, ten trolls, ten vampires, whatever.

I apparently cannot simply take someone else's rules. I apparently must always house-rule up my own version. I mean no disrespect. I think it is a kind of "conversion process" so that I can assimilate things on terms that I am more likely to intuitively "get" and, therefore, remember and run on the fly.

So here is what I am thinking now. Y'all let me know what you think:

SCALE

1 Unit	10 normals
1 inch	10 yrds
1 turn	3 "normal" combat rounds

MOVEMENT

Movement in general is as listed in the LBBs per creature-type. Normal troops can be figured thus:

Type	Move
Light	12
Medium	9
Heavy	6

TO HIT AC

AC	Hit on d6
9-7	4
6-4	5
3-0	6
- 1	7

COMBAT

Any unit in contact with an enemy unit may roll to hit on its attack turn. A roll matching or over the enemy unit's hit value indicates a hit and removes a standard unit.

CONVERSIONS

There are two ways to convert monsters and characters:

1. Units of 10 monsters or characters with multiple HD take that number of hits before removal. For every 3HD and/or 3 attack bonuses they receive +1 to hit. Monsters with multiple attack get the same number of chances to hit. Monsters with multiple dice of damage score the equivalent number of removals on a successful hit.

2. Monsters or characters with multiple HD may be grouped in units roughly equivalent to 10HD, total (within a range of say, 8-12HD), removable upon a single successful hit. For every 3 attack bonuses they receive +1 to hit. Monsters with multiple attacks receive +1 to hit for every 3 additional attacks, rounded down. Monsters with multiple dice of damage do not benefit from this affect when grouped in this way.

For cavalry on fantastic mounts add the HD of rider and mount. Units on horses will take damage equivalent to total HD but attack based only upon rider's HD.

Spells which deal #HD of damage inflict that number of hits. Monsters and characters may reduce this number by 1d3 per unit affected. Normals may not.

TURN SEQUENCE

Combat should be resolvable using the standard precedence for combat resolution, always keeping in mind the larger level of scale and that non-player troops whose side has taken damage must check morale at the conclusion of each turn.

COST OF TROOPS

Troops costs follow the general suggestions followed in the original edition.

FORMATION

In general, formation should be considered factored into the abstraction, allowing role-play with reference to a map or player's knowledge of the general combat area or battle field. Units may be presumed to face any direction from which they are attacked or towards which they desire to attack. Allied units may pass through one another.

MORALE

Check morale the standard way or roll as a reaction check.Troops that loose morale flee the scene or battle field. Routed troops may return continued attacks at -1 while those who pursue attack +1. Lawful units check morale +1, chaotic units -1. Normal hired men are neutral. Units led by a hero-type check morale +1.

LOSS

At the conclusion of combat, each removed unit saves for half losses. If only half are lost the unit saves again for only half unconscious/incapacitated. Use the ST of the highest leader-type in charge of that unit or the ST of the given creature-type, whichever is better.

Okay I am tired now. I will return to post my reworking of hero-types, magic-users and things like strongholds, etc.

[tetramorph]

HIGH LEVEL CHARACTERS AND HIGH HIT DICE CREATURES

Creatures that have between 8-12 HD may act as a single figure. Man-sized creatures and characters of this type may be "embedded" within a unit of troops. Large creatures cannot. Such characters and creatures may take a number of hits equivalent to their HD divided by ten (10). They may save against magical attacks using their normal saving throw. If a high-level character or high-hit-dice creature is removed through mass-combat resolution their HPs are zeroed out and they must be rescued from the field or risk exposure. They may make save for half their HP and if successful are still forced to retreat until HPs are restored. If exposed through an entire combat they must save against adversity or they have died due to untreated wounds or having been "finished off" by an enemy.

ENTOURAGES

Lower level playing characters may hire an entourage of level one characters in order to bring themselves to a total HD of 10. Such PCs + entourages may not embed in another unit.

EMBEDDING

Man-sized creatures and characters may embed within a unit of troops or low-HD creatures as long as they move with them at their rate. Both the unit and the character or creature attack but only the unit defends as the character or creature is immune to attack until the unit within which they are embedded is removed.

HEROIC COMBAT

When such creatures or characters come in contact with another such creature or character, these types engage one another in "normal" D&D combat with three D&D combat rounds per one mass-combat turn.

[tetramorph]

MAGIC

As stated above, spells which deal #HD of damage inflict that number of hits. Monsters and characters may reduce this number by 1d3 per unit affected. Normals may not.

Magic-user and Cleric characters of 8+HD, or lower level characters surrounded by an entourage may also act as a unit of battle as per "high-level characters," above.

MAGIC-USERS

MUs may use any applicable 5th and 6th lvl spells and any spells with an area-affect which deals #HD damage (as described above). All other lower-level spells are part of the abstraction: the MU's relative AC should be adjusted based upon the assumption of the judicious use of many lower-level spells to something between AC 5-3. Assume that MUs may become invisible, polymorph, fly or teleport away from the battle at any point.

CLERICS

CLs may use any applicable 5th lvl spells and "sticks to snakes." All other lower-level spells are part of the abstraction: the CL's relative AC should be adjust by -1 assuming the judicious use of many lower-level spells. "Cure serious wounds" may be used to restore one hit to a unit that has sustained damage but has not yet been removed from play.

[tetramorph]

DEFENSIVE WALLS AND STRUCTURES

Defensive walls include any kind of structure which would block immediate attack (walls), e.g. palisades, fortified walls, ship fore- and aft-castles, etc. Defensive structures are those which in addition to warding off immediate attack also ward off range-fire (i.e., structures with roofs), e.g., buildings, ship galleys, towers, certain kinds of siege-engines, etc.

Defenders behind intact walls may only suffer from range-fire and they receive the next better roll against AC (e.g., if it would normally take a 5 on a d6 to hit, it now takes a 6). Defenders along a wall receive a +1 to attacks against units immediately adjacent to the wall (abstracting rocks, projectiles, boiling oil, etc.). Defenders within roofed defensive-structures are immune to attack and, as with wall defenders, attack with a +1. Attackers attempting to use ladders use an entire turn in the attempt and must roll 5+ on d6 (or see table suggesting AC for defensive structures, below) to succeed. They may engage in combat on the next turn.

Gates, doors, drawbridges, portcullises, may be battered down by a standard unit as per rules for "forcing doors" in a dungeon. Battering rams and other such engines of war act as do the use of a crowbar, etc., in the dungeon. Units that take multiple hits receive an equivalent number of bonuses when attempting to batter down barred entryways. Such attempts take a full turn. Only the units involved in the successful attempt may enter the structure and engage in combat upon the next turn. When such a way is cleared if there are still defending units present near the entryway assume they reseal the door each round. Only undefended entryways remain open.

Walls and structures may be granted an AC in order to adjudicate attempts at burning, mining, or destroying by means of catapults, bombards or their magical equivalents. For example:

Material	to hit on d6
Wood	5
Stone	6
Enchanted	7

Goblins mine at +1, dwarves at +2.

[tetramorph]

Okay, folks (and waysoftheearth, please let me know what you think) here is what our play-testing has led me to most recently. Please let me know what you think:

Mass Combat Units and Scale


“Normal combat” refers to the traditional “Alternative Combat System.” “Normal” refers to a human-like creature <3HD. Only normals may form mass combat units. All playing characters and any creature of 3+HD (“fantastic”) act independently. Group any creatures <3HD into units of approximately 10HD each (exceptions noted below).
When using a hex-grid, each 1” hex represents 10 yards across. A standard unit fills one such hex. One normal sized creature may be placed in the same hex together with a unit of normals. Up to three friendly normal sized creatures may occupy the same hex. Stacked units and individuals will nevertheless attack and defend independently. Up to four attackers may engage in melee with a single defender in any given melee round.


Turn Sequence


Resolve mass combat using standard precedence or the following turn sequence:


A. Encounter Preliminaries


1. Surprise

2. Distance

3. Position

4. Reaction/Morale


B. Mass Combat Turn


1. Declarations and Initiative

2. Combat Phases:

a. Engine, Spells and Magic

b. Range-fire

c. Move

d. Melee

3. Check morale each melee round

4. Check fatigue each combat turn


If both or neither sides are surprised, roll for initiative. Distance is 4-24” if neither side is surprised, 1-3” if either or both are surprised. Sides engage each phase of mass combat simultaneously. Initiative grants winner choice of action or reaction (“move / countermove”) each combat phase. Melee rounds continue until the resolution of all melees between units within melee range. Melee resolved by rally, removal, surrender or retreat. When both mass and normal melee concur, resolve mass combat melee first.


E.g., if A wins initiative over B, A may cast a spell removing B’s MU, but B’s MU still casts a spell before removal. A’s range-fire may remove B’s archer unit, but B’s archers still get off a volley before removal. A may choose to close first or may give movement to B in order to react. Even if A’s unit removes B’s unit through melee, B’s unit makes a returning melee before removal.


Spells and Magic


Spells that deal #HD damage inflict that number of hits on mass combat units. Normal units save equal to or greater than 20 on d20 +3 +HD (10). “Fireball” and “lightning,” target up to 24 HXs. Fireballs may affect up to three HXs sharing the same center-point for a total radius of 20 yards. Target distance may affect accuracy. “Lightning” may be targeted with perfect accuracy affecting only one HX for full damage or up to 6 linear HXs at ½ damage before saves, abstracting its narrow width of affect. “Haste,” and “slow” do not affect mass combat units.


Movement


Allow movement as per general listings in the rules. Units may move and melee attack in the same turn if they move less than maximum allowance. Troops may charge with a bonus to attack and damage (+1) but may only move half allowance the next turn. Side with initiative may target a unit or individual for melee. The attacker “controls” declared targets. They may maneuver but may not escape melee during their move phase. Formation is abstract. Allied units may pass through one another. Friendly individuals may pass through each other’s hexes.


Unit Combat


Any creature, character or unit within range of an enemy may attack on its turn: range-fire as per weapon range, melee range per adjacent HX or within 10 yards. Units make a d20 attack roll en masse as a single 10HD creature of their given type. Upon successful attack, pips on damage dice indicate target’s HD loss, not HP loss. A unit of 10 normal foot takes ten points of damage before removal. Once a unit, creature or character has been reduced below a single hit dice, that unit is removed from combat. Removal does not necessarily indicate total loss to death (see “loss,” below). Any engagement with a mass-combat unit entails mass-combat rules.


Normal Combat


Characters, especially playing characters, may seek “leader types” and “boss monsters” as particular targets and engage them in normal combat. In general, the referee should ensure that there is some such leader type for each playing character to engage. If not rolled up in the random encounter, add as necessary. Characters and creatures engaged in normal melee are immune to mass melee attacks until the resolution of normal melee. Characters and fantastic creatures that take damage from both mass combat and normal combat over the course of the same battle convert HD and HP on a 2:7 hit dice to point ratio. Removal of heroic leader types forces morale check at -1. Removal of super-heroic leader types forces immediate morale loss.

Morale and Fatigue


Non-player troops that have sustained damage must check morale each melee round. Troops that engage in combat one mass combat turn check fatigue. Check morale the standard way or roll as a reaction check. Troops that loose morale flee the scene or battlefield. Routed troops may return continued attacks at -1 while those who pursue attack +1. Lawful units check morale +1, chaotic units -1. Normal hired men are neutral. Units led by a hero-type check morale +1. Check fatigue against character constitution. Creatures and units roll 20 or more on d20 +HD. Troops that grow fatigued make attacks and deal damage at -1. The affects of morale and fatigue are cumulative.


Loss


At the conclusion of combat, each removed unit saves for half losses. If only half are lost the unit saves against unconscious / incapacitation for those saved. Use ST of highest leader-type present within unit or ST of the given creature-type, whichever is better. Until replaced with new troops, this unit would function as a 5HD creature.


Units that sustained damage but were not removed also save for half HD loss. E.g., a unit receives 5 points of damage and saves for half losses at the conclusion of combat. Rounded up, the unit losses only 2 troops. Until those troops are replaced the unit functions as an 8HD creature.


If mass combat removes a character or creature they may make a save. Characters and creatures 7+HD save against unconsciousness. If they save, they have 1HP. Characters and creatures <7HD save against death. If they save they have the lowest HP possible before lapsing into death. If exposed on the battlefield, incapacitated characters may need to save against adversity.


Experience


Award experience points by dividing the total experience earned at conclusion of combat by the HD total of the player’s army. Playing characters receive shares of experience points equivalent to their level (or relative HD). Normal units may increase in level. Group level 2 troops into two 10HD units of 5 troops each. Group level 3 troops into three 10HD units of 3 troops each. Units that progress beyond level 3 disband, joining the campaign world as independent adventuring heroes.


Conversions


In general, any attack modifiers convert to mass combat by dividing by 3 and rounding down. Monsters with multiple normal attacks get the same number of mass combat attacks. Monsters with multiple dice of damage score the same number of hits against HD in mass combat.


Mounts


Mounted units move according to mount. Units on normal mounts (horses, camels, elephants, etc.) take damage up the mount’s HD but attack only upon rider's HD. In clear terrain, normal mounted troops make two attacks per melee round.
Cavalry on fantastic mounts (griffons, rocs, hippogriffs, dragons, etc.) add the HD of rider and mount and always receive two attacks per melee round. E.g., the party encounters a lord with six heroes on griffon mounts. Each mounted hero attacks twice per melee round at 11HD and receives 11 mass combat hits before removal.

Continuing in next post.

[tetramorph]

And more for more particular scenarios, especially sieges, etc.:

Defensive Walls and Structures

Defensive walls include any kind of structure that would block immediate attack (walls), e.g. palisades, fortified walls, ship fore- and aft-castles, etc. Defensive structures are those that in addition to warding off immediate attack also ward off range-fire (i.e., structures with roofs), e.g., keeps, buildings, ship galleys, towers, certain kinds of siege-engines, etc.

Defenders behind intact walls may only suffer range-fire and they receive +2 to AC (i.e., AC7 becomes AC5, etc.) Defenders along a wall receive +2 to attacks against units immediately adjacent to the wall (abstracting rocks, projectiles, boiling oil, etc.). Defenders within roofed defensive-structures are immune to attack and, as with wall defenders, range-fire at +2. Attackers attempting ladders use an entire turn in the attempt and must attack against AC7 to succeed (or, see table suggesting AC for defensive structures, below). They may engage in combat on the next turn.

Barred Entries

Gates, doors, drawbridges, portcullises, may be battered down by a standard unit as per rules for "forcing doors" in a dungeon. Battering rams and other such engines of war act as do the use of a crowbar, etc., in the dungeon. Such attempts take a full turn. Only the units (up to 3) involved in the successful attempt may enter the structure and engage in combat upon the next turn. When such a way is cleared if there are still defending units present near the entryway assume they reseal the entry each round. Only undefended entryways remain open.

Sieges and Mining

Walls and structures may be granted an AC in order to adjudicate attempts at burning, mining, or destroying by means of sapping, catapults, bombards or their magical equivalents. Goblins mine at +1, dwarves at +2.

Structural Armor Class table

Material	AC
Wood	7
Stone	5
Enchanted	3

The rest of the document is convenient tables for costs of troops and provisions per week per units of 10, etc.

What do y'all think?

[tetramorph]

waysoftheearth, Admin Pete and folks: please see the two above posts again: they have been significantly edited after a conversation over on ODD74 (http://odd74.proboards.com/thread/11240/lbb-combat-redux-another-goes) and through play testing. This is getting better and better. Looking forward to any comments / reflection. Thanks.